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Saltface

The Odd Man Out

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Dears,

 

I beg to differ. I want to learn how to play Destroyers. Yes, now, with all this CV rework thing going on. And to be honest every time I tried I failed miserably. Just look at my stats. Absolute (well almost absolute) failure.

 

Question:

Which Nation and for what reason?

 

Tips and advise as always welcome.

 

Regards,

Saltface

 

P.S. As during the festive period my kids trolled my badly. I received a ton of loot boxes as Christmas gifts. I also got many of the researchable ones when that event took place a few months ago and WG was giving away researchable ships. So, I have a rather big (unused) collection of Destroyers moored in my port.

IJN - Umicaze, Kamikaze, Hatsuharu, Asashio

USN - Monaghan, Sims, Kidd

SN - Gremyashchy, Okhotnik, Leningrad

KM - T-61, Z39

RN - Icarus, Gallant

PN - Blyskwica

PA - Longjiang, Anshan, Loyang

MF - Aigle, Le Terrible

CW - Haida

 

Black Jack of Destroyers. Would any of them be a good learning ship?

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Personally I'd go for Sims and Kidd for the time being Because they have decent AA and are essentially gunboats so the most beneficial ship configuration and captain skills are largely much the same for both purposes (especially BFT, AFT). USN DD's generally also have very good and long lasting smoke, which will help your survival (but don't just sit in there for God's sakes).:Smile_Default:

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Due to the current CV climate I would focus initially on AA DDs like Sims or Kidd. Even those with reliable smoke consumables like the RN DDs.

The black sheep Asashio could also prove effective with the removal of plane spotting against torpedoes and her ability to stay at long range while delivering her payload.

 

DDs I would stay away from would be KM DDs due to their weak smoke consumables.

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9 minutes ago, Saltface said:

Black Jack of Destroyers. Would any of them be a good learning ship?

Kamikaze and Gremyashchy would be solid learning ships as they give a good impression of their nation's flavour whilst being both at a more forgiving MM bracket and very potent ships.

 

T-61, Blyskawica and Sims are also very good, but come with less forgiving MM brackets and the usual rule of thumb applies, don't play ships/classes on higher tiers if you don't got much experience.

Kidd and Lo Yang are excellent DDs, but as tier VIII ships obviously not meant for learning, duh. Okhotnik is a party-boat, but takes a bit more experience in DD ambush tactics to really make it work, so you're going to have to get more confident in your DD skills before you can enjoy it much, but oh boy will you have a great time with it!

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Of your premium DDs, the best for dealing with CVs are the USN ones, specially Kidd and Sims. You can make Monaghan quite good on AA but you are going to sacrifice 2 guns so you will struggle a lot against other DDs.

 

About DD lines, you can go USN one as have decent AA and you have 3 premium to boost your captain training. You can also go with SN as on the alternate line you have the best TX AA DD on grozovoi.

 

For learning how to play DD, start some lines from the beggining. As many as you can.

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To learn the essentials of DDs, Umikaze is a great choice. It teaches you the imporantance of positioning, stealth torping and spotting for your team. Its the way how I learned to DD back in the day. I wouldnt jump into something like Kidd or Sims to learn the class, because you will quick get into situations, that get you killed. T2 is much more forgiving in that sense and gives you space to learn. I did what? like 40 games Umikaze / Wakatake and then I had most of the basics right. From there I went into midtier DDs right away and was fine.

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10 minutes ago, Aotearas said:

Kamikaze and Gremyashchy would be solid learning ships as they give a good impression of their nation's flavour whilst being both at a more forgiving MM bracket and very potent ships.

 

T-61, Blyskawica and Sims are also very good, but come with less forgiving MM brackets and the usual rule of thumb applies, don't play ships/classes on higher tiers if you don't got much experience.

Kidd and Lo Yang are excellent DDs, but as tier VIII ships obviously not meant for learning, duh. Okhotnik is a party-boat, but takes a bit more experience in DD ambush tactics to really make it work, so you're going to have to get more confident in your DD skills before you can enjoy it much, but oh boy will you have a great time with it!

seconded. Kami and Grem are really really good examples of the two opposite poles of DD gameplay (i.e. torpboat with jokes for guns, or stealthy-mini-cruiser-without-a-citadel), with T-61 sorta filling the gap between them. And all three of these also get bonus points for being horribly overpowered, so they should provide some feel-good success moments even for someone that's just starting out in DD gameplay. Just be aware that after these, your silver ships will tend to be very meh in comparison... so hooray for WG balance!

1 minute ago, ForlornSailor said:

To learn the essentials of DDs, Umikaze is a great choice. It teaches you the imporantance of positioning, stealth torping and spotting for your team. Its the way how I learned to DD back in the day. I wouldnt jump into something like Kidd or Sims to learn the class, because you will quick get into situations, that get you killed. T2 is much more forgiving in that sense and gives you space to learn. I did what? like 40 games Umikaze / Wakatake and then I had most of the basics right. From there I went into midtier DDs right away and was fine.

I agree with Ao more than this mostly because I'm not sure how much you can learn from the derpy circus that is T2 games where people mostly just drive around willy-nilly... T5 at least ends up being matches instead of moshpits most of the time... :Smile_teethhappy:

 

 

As for first lines to pick and grind @Saltface - depends on whether you end up enjoying Kamikaze or Gremyashy gameplay more after, say, two dozen games in each. After that, the Public Test Server (if you can be bothered) is a good place to try out some of the ships you might be going towards in a zero responsibility environment. Oh, and of course you can always come here and post a replay or two if you end up enjoying DD gameplay and want some pointers on how to git gud :Smile_teethhappy:

Just as a very general run-down, generally valid until roughly around T6 since this is about starting to get into DD gameplay...

 

  • The "Gunboats". USN and RU DDs have short-ranged suicide torps at low and mid tiers, so they play mostly as DD hunters and cap contesters.
    • USN generally have more raw gunpower through quicker reload, but their shells tend to go sub-orbital very quickly even at moderate ranges, so they're most comfortable as true knife-fighters. Also have the best smokes in the game. Transition into hybrids between T6 and T7, with longer ranged torps, but retain their rather unique gun characteristics. Early access to Defensive AA as well (from T5 onwards), although you have to give up gun power to get it - still, worth keeping in mind these days...
    • RU DDs on the other hand have much more punchy high-velocity guns starting at T5, so they can still be effective at longer ranges and their AP is a lot more potent. Mostly retain the gunboat focus through the tiers (except Ognevoi which is just shite), so much so that it's very valid (and great fun!) to pick up AFT on your captain and just sail around constantly shooting at 12-14km with some of them.
  • The "Hybrids". Germans, Brits and Pan-Asians tend to sport both usable guns and torpedoes.
    • Germans have pretty decent torps and relatively large health pools, but somewhat mediocre guns for their respective tiers and very bad smokes. Really come into their own with the Gaede at T6, which not only gets their trademark Hydroacoustic Search but can also use slow-firing cruiser caliber 150mm guns that pack a mean wallop if you use them right. Quite a consistent and forgiving line (the latter due to lots of health), but not the strongest offense at their tiers.
    • Brits are somewhat similar to the Germans - less meaty, relatively slow, similar torpedoes, very short smokes but lots of them (which makes them very good at getting a quick perma-fire or two to farm some damage off a BB). Also get a long-lasting but short range Hydro at T6, very good defensively.
    • Pan-Asians are the most torpedo-focused out of these lines - their fishes can't hit other DDs but are very very stealthy and thus extremely hard to dodge for other classes. Also still reasonable guns most of the time.
  • The "Torp boats" - poor poor IJN...
    • Supposed to rely on their stealth (which these days isnt even that special anymore even without CVs around to ruin your day) and their high damage torps (which are the easiest to spot out of all of them so hard to get consistent hits with). Generally pathetic gunpower especially at lower tiers - you'll see what I mean when you try out the Kamikaze; this is somewhat less pronounced at the higher tiers where you're still got the weakest guns but at least pack pretty decent alpha so you cant be ignored...
    • Radical change of gameplay from Shiratsuyu to Akizuki should you choose to go up that line - Akizuki, Kitakaze and Harugumo are insanely scary (but very very fat) gunboats all of a sudden.
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3 minutes ago, Tyrendian89 said:

I agree with Ao more than this mostly because I'm not sure how much you can learn from the derpy circus that is T2 games where people mostly just drive around willy-nilly... T5 at least ends up being matches instead of moshpits most of the time... :Smile_teethhappy:

 

All I can say is: it worked for me. And I would say, playing OP stuff like Kamikaze or Gremy gives you a wrong impression on how to DD. Ive med a few of those clubbing guys with something like 1k games in Kami (those, that play hardly anything else and even have impressive WR in it) and you can pull easy tricks on them, since they are lazy, overestimate themself and rely on their OP boats. Once you get used to the things, a Kamikaze or a Gremy can do, you will have a hard time mitigating back to silver ships, like Mutzuki or Minsk...

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15 minutes ago, Tyrendian89 said:
    • Akizuki, Kitakaze and Harugumo are insanely scary (but very very fat) ...

Tut tut friend.:Smile_sad: Not that I disagree with the content itself BUT who you callin' Fat?:Smile-angry: The politic term nowadays is "Horizontally Gifted". And the 3 are definitely more gifted than anyone.:Smile_great:

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8 minutes ago, Tyrendian89 said:

seconded. Kami and Grem are really really good examples of the two opposite poles of DD gameplay (i.e. torpboat with jokes for guns, or stealthy-mini-cruiser-without-a-citadel), with T-61 sorta filling the gap between them. And all three of these also get bonus points for being horribly overpowered, so they should provide some feel-good success moments even for someone that's just starting out in DD gameplay. Just be aware that after these, your silver ships will tend to be very meh in comparison... so hooray for WG balance!

 

 

So isnt it counter productive to play OP ships :cap_hmm:

You sure can have fun in those, but will it teach you anything valuable for grinding the normal silver ships? Not too much i guess.

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2 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

All I can say is: it worked for me. And I would say, playing OP stuff like Kamikaze or Gremy gives you a wrong impression on how to DD. Ive med a few of those clubbing guys with something like 1k games in Kami (those, that play hardly anything else and even have impressive WR in it) and you can pull easy tricks on them, since they are lazy, overestimate themself and rely on their OP boats. Once you get used to the things, a Kamikaze or a Gremy can do, you will have a hard time mitigating back to silver ships, like Mutzuki or Minsk...

also fair. As per usual, "the truth" is probably somewhere in the middle isn't it? :Smile_Default:

 

Just now, DFens_666 said:

 

So isnt it counter productive to play OP ships :cap_hmm:

You sure can have fun in those, but will it teach you anything valuable for grinding the normal silver ships? Not too much i guess.

I'd argue there is a different between getting an impression (which Kami, Grem and T-61 are good for), and truly learning the smaller tricks (where you're right, them being as powerful as they are does mean they dont "force you" to learn as much as some other ships).

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6 minutes ago, Tyrendian89 said:

also fair. As per usual, "the truth" is probably somewhere in the middle isn't it? :Smile_Default:

 

Yea sure. Everyone has a different approach and learns a different way. Its up to @Saltface to decide, which one works for him. :Smile_Default:

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Since DDs are quite challenging to play and unforgiving (if you get spotted everyone will shoot at you), I'd suggest just start from the bottom and grind each line slow and steady. Go to the next ship in the line when you feel you've mastered atleast the basics of the ship youre currently playing.

 

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Agree with Garrus.

 

The best way to learn is to be at a disadvantage (silver vs. prem, tier to tier) and learn by failure (I'm afraid).

 

@Bear_Necessities is usually around during the day due to shift patterns, you should div up with him as he's a very accomplished DD player and you could learn from him @Saltface

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If you try to learn to play dds during this current cv-meta, you will actually just learn how to play handicapped cruisers, you cant really do much dd stuff at all if there are one or two cvs on the enemy team. Id wait until it gets fixed.

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@OP As people said you would most likely be served best by going up at least two lines at least to t9 but if you really want to use those you have i d say - play 50 battles in monaghan with gun deck and same with torp deck after that see if you more like relying on torps or guns and choose next ship according to that

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Dear All,

 

Thank you for your prompt replies. By no means I am telling one and all to stop answering. Just a quick thank you.

 

I started from IJN T2 Umikaze. I did 10 Co Op battles with her and 32 Random. Result, oh my, a disaster. Random was 10 out of 32.

However, this is mostly due to the fact that there are seldom any ships other than DDs in Random at T2.

Most of my games have been 2 vs 2 or 3 vs 3 or in good cases (lol) 7 DDs and a few odd Cruisers. Torp land.

I managed to sink 21 ships with torps. But I always get deleted by gun boats. 

Yes, Umikaze has great torpedoes at 8 K and I can fire 4 every 20 seconds, but, her guns are next to non existent.

 

Everytime I get face to face with a (e.g) KM V 25 I m gunned out to oblivion. 

I attribute this to the big difference of initial shell velocity that gives a low arc, hence, better gunnery. (750 m/sec vs 660 m/sec - this is 13.64% faster) This is significant at the close range that we engage. Not to mention 10 sec reload time for the Umikaze vs 4 sec of the T25. Torpedoes are rather ineffective vs Destroyers as both ships are agile. 

 

What I think I will do is:

1. Ignore my WR (it will fall of the cliff);

2. Try all Destroyers until T5;

3. Try the Kamikaze the Gremyashchy and the Monaghan

 

Then I will see which line I will try to push.

 

The idea of stealthy sneaky play is rather exciting. It is more cerebral I guess.

 

We shall see

 

Once again thank you all and by no means stop posting your advise

 

Regards

Saltface

 

PS I have divisioned with @Bear_Necessities who had the courage to suffer me supporting him in my Hindenburg. I really enjoyed it.

Oh by the way, I will not stop playing with my BBs.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Saltface said:

Dear All,

 

Thank you for your prompt replies. By no means I am telling one and all to stop answering. Just a quick thank you.

 

I started from IJN T2 Umikaze. I did 10 Co Op battles with her and 32 Random. Result, oh my, a disaster. Random was 10 out of 32.

However, this is mostly due to the fact that there are seldom any ships other than DDs in Random at T2.

Most of my games have been 2 vs 2 or 3 vs 3 or in good cases (lol) 7 DDs and a few odd Cruisers. Torp land.

I managed to sink 21 ships with torps. But I always get deleted by gun boats. 

Yes, Umikaze has great torpedoes at 8 K and I can fire 4 every 20 seconds, but, her guns are next to non existent.

 

Everytime I get face to face with a (e.g) KM V 25 I m gunned out to oblivion. 

I attribute this to the big difference of initial shell velocity that gives a low arc, hence, better gunnery. (750 m/sec vs 660 m/sec - this is 13.64% faster) This is significant at the close range that we engage. Not to mention 10 sec reload time for the Umikaze vs 4 sec of the T25. Torpedoes are rather ineffective vs Destroyers as both ships are agile. 

 

What I think I will do is:

1. Ignore my WR (it will fall of the cliff);

2. Try all Destroyers until T5;

3. Try the Kamikaze the Gremyashchy and the Monaghan

 

Then I will see which line I will try to push.

 

The idea of stealthy sneaky play is rather exciting. It is more cerebral I guess.

 

We shall see

 

Once again thank you all and by no means stop posting your advise

 

Regards

Saltface

 

PS I have divisioned with @Bear_Necessities who had the courage to suffer me supporting him in my Hindenburg. I really enjoyed it.

Oh by the way, I will not stop playing with my BBs.

 

 

We won 3/4. I’d say that’s pretty good :)

 

And I’d gladly do low tier DD’s to show you the ropes. Clemson is great fun and minikaze although nerfed heavily from her glory days is still a dangerous little sneakbote

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I would play some more battles in Umikaze.

As you wrote you learned how to torp.

But it looks like you didn't learn to avoid gun boats (it's hard to master). :Smile-_tongue:

Look where they usually go.

Try to lead them to your cruisers.

Learn how to smoke to escape.

 

 

 

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Boy, you certainly have chosen the wrong time to do that.

 

Here's the harsh truth: As long as the enemy CV is reasonably skilled no amount of DD AA will save you against a same tier CV. I recently attacked a Kidd in my Enterprise who apparently ran full AA (as he was bragging about it in chat).

He shot down 3 RFs before dying. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

If you can accept that, I'd say start with USN DDs. They're the most versatile of the bunch, get long duration smokes to hide from planes and on later tiers have DFAA so you can at least defend yourself from less skilled CVs.

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4 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Boy, you certainly have chosen the wrong time to do that

 

I have played in random about 1,500 battles - 50% with BB 50% with cruisers.

I "hated" Destroyers. I could never get the grasp of them.

Best way is to fight what you fear (metaphor) most is doing it.

 

And I like being challenged.

 

Regards,

Saltface

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Id say to start at the beginning.

 

Tier 2 is very comfortable for DD, there's no natural threats to them beyond other DD and you royally ballsing up

Tier 3 is pretty similar, although you might meet CV

Tier 4 you meet cruisers that have hydro and CV much more regularly.

Tier 5 is a big jump - you meet tier 6 CV which arent the pushovers the tier 4 are, and if you're unlucky you'll meet belfasts and get introduced to the wonder that is radar

Tier 6 more of the same, except you meet tier 8 now, and they have radar more frequently, and you.meet the tier 8 CV. Since there's currently 6 tier 8 CV they're pretty common

Tier 7 gets rougher since they meet tier 9 who have access to slot 5/6 equipment. Tier 7 DD are some of the most detectable ones for their MM.

Tier 8 get to be stealthy again! However they also meet tier X, so get used to CV and lots of Radar.

Tier 9/X are stronger, but for obvious reasons always meet the high tier CV/Radar.

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22 hours ago, Tyrendian89 said:

you can always come here and post a replay or two

@Tyrendian89, @Bear_Necessities

 

and all the other dear gentlemen that offered their advice (I avoid posting all the names, except Tyrendian89 and Bear_Necessities, the former because he kindly offered the later because I divisioned up with his kind self) would you mind tearing this one apart?

 

20190221_143928_PRSD001-Gremyashchy-1942_17_NA_fault_line.wowsreplay

 

This is my second Random with Gremyashchy. Defeat. I ended up second in my team but ... I guess it was a meh team or else I wouldn't.

I tried to avoid detection.

I think I messed up when, instead of going as initially intended to surprise cap (and turn a losing game), I took on the Pensacola. But as the DD on my side was sunk already I thought I could do that on the way. The reds were going "en masse" north and I thought I might get in the cap behind the island, smoke up, keep my secondaries closed and try to cap. It would turn a lost game so it was worth the effort. And, when I did so (take on the Pensacola), I think I overdid it. I should have fired my torpedoes and leave or smoke up.

I need to recondition my self to stop thinking that everything I skipper is a BB.

 

Looking forward to some hard critique and pointers.

Thanking you in advance

 

Saltafce

 

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Golden rules for playing destroyers.

!. Know your concealment distance at all times.

2. Plan ahead, if you turn now to get closer to an enemy, will you be spotted?

3. Know when to fight, and when to run away. A ship that runs away, lives to fight again.

4. If you intend to sit in smoke firing, ensure you know before hand where the enemy destroyers are. Smoke attracts torpedoes!

5. If your concealment is better than an enemy destroyer, keep him spotted, do not open fire. Let your team attack him.

6. You can scout. Spotting high concealment cruisers, pressing F3 to get them deleted. No need to attack, you'll reveal your position either from your torpedoes or from direct fire.

7. If being chased by a cruiser, drop a smoke screen, but keep running. The cruiser will think you are sitting in it to torpedo him. He will then zig zag towards the smoke (with hydro on) whilst you get away. Unless you are good, resist the urge to fire torpedoes, it reveals the direction you've headed to.

8. Double back to a position they would not expect you to head to. Often a cruiser will pursue you, followed by a battleship. The battleship feels safe as he has the cruiser in front to spot torpedoes. But you are not heading away from them, you've looped around to fire at the battleship.

9. Buy and read a copy of the U-Boat commanders handbook. its all valid. In game you are just a surfaced torpedo platform.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/U-Boat-Commanders-Handbook/dp/0939631210

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