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Hawg

The Overpen mechanic. RNG or Skill?

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I'm having trouble understanding the overpen mechanic.   Is it something that I am supposed to be able to take advantage of (i.e. a skilled player knows how to make a hit be more likely to be an overpen when he is the target, or less likely to be an overpen when targeting another ship)?   Or is it purely RNG?   

 

Some examples:

 

Just had a battle where I had a Seattle fully broadside to me about 6km away.   I hit him with 5 Musashi AP rounds, they were all overpens.  The next volley, one shell hits pretty much the same spot on the ship, same angle, same distance, and its a citadel.

 

Musashi plunging fire on a FDG  at 22km, overpens after overpens, and then suddenly one will magically pen for 9km..   

 

Buffalo shells on a Musashi at 16km all overpens.

 

There seems to be no rhyme or reason to them.

 

Ricochets and shatter I understand, but really I am struggling to see if overpens have just become a bit of RNG programmed into the game, or if WG are trying to introduce a skill element.  If it is a skill element, how do I use it?

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9 minutes ago, Hawg said:

I'm having trouble understanding the overpen mechanic.   Is it something that I am supposed to be able to take advantage of (i.e. a skilled player knows how to make a hit be more likely to be an overpen when he is the target, or less likely to be an overpen when targeting another ship)?   Or is it purely RNG?   

 

Some examples:

 

Just had a battle where I had a Seattle fully broadside to me about 6km away.   I hit him with 5 Musashi AP rounds, they were all overpens.  The next volley, one shell hits pretty much the same spot on the ship, same angle, same distance, and its a citadel.

 

Musashi plunging fire on a FDG  at 22km, overpens after overpens, and then suddenly one will magically pen for 9km..   

 

Buffalo shells on a Musashi at 16km all overpens.

 

There seems to be no rhyme or reason to them.

 

Ricochets and shatter I understand, but really I am struggling to see if overpens have just become a bit of RNG programmed into the game, or if WG are trying to introduce a skill element.  If it is a skill element, how do I use it?

It's RNG insofar as dispersion exists. It is skill insofar as you should know where to aim on a ship. USN CLs are a prime example, as the CL line (so, not Omaha) have pretty small citadels compared to other cruisers of their tier and they got little to no armour anywhere else. Thus, overpenning them when you don't hit exactly where the citadel is is a given with a high pen BB like Musashi on a broadside target.

 

To be fair though, the amount of RNG that goes into overpens is actually less than goes into ricochets, which you supposedly understand, because ricochets have an area where they are possible, but not guaranteed, adding RNG ontop of just dispersion. Penetration values are not RNG, nor are armour models, so apart from dispersion throwing your shells wherever, it is possible to guarantee an outcome with proper aim (but dispersion exists, so at any significant range you can't guarantee anything). What makes this more complex than ricochet likely is that it features more interaction with interior parts of the armour model (though shells can ricochet off internal plating too, but such is typically still a pen/overpen and thus displayed as such).

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It is part skill (or lack of it) and RNG.

The more powerful your shells are compared to the targeted armor, the more overpens you get.

You must either target different armor or reduce the power of your shells (more distance).

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17 minutes ago, Hawg said:

Just had a battle where I had a Seattle fully broadside to me about 6km away.   I hit him with 5 Musashi AP rounds, they were all overpens.  The next volley, one shell hits pretty much the same spot on the ship, same angle, same distance, and its a citadel.

The secret is hidden within "pretty much". One shot might've went right above the citadel, for example (overpenning everything) while the other just a little bit lower could've been just low enough to hit the citadel, arm on the citadel armor and detonate inside.

Also, there's also the option that you are mistaken about the shell - the one that caused the citadel hit might've reached the target underwater, for example.

Oh, and there's also the option of a slight desync causing the game to "lie" to you about where exactly the shell hit.

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Something id like to add:

You need caliber/6 armor thickness to arm the shell. So if we look at Musashis 460mm guns, you need 77mm or plating to fuse your shell. If you only hit a thinner plating, it wont fuse, so it will always be overpenetrating.

Ofc impact angle will influence that, as 25mm plating (like Seattle has), will only be 25mm thick at a 90° angle.

Seattles Citadel armor belt is thick enough to fuse Musashi shells (127mm afaik). But seattle is a rather thin ship, so it might be possible to overpenetrate the citadel, because there is a delay in which the shell detonates, which is usually 0,33 seconds for majority of ships.

So if the shell velocity is too fast and the ship is very small, you might experience citadel overpens aswell (usually only if you are very close - otherwise shell velocity is not high enough). But if you hit the water, its also possible to get citadels at close range, the water is slowing down the shell.

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Thanks guys, very useful information.   I guess the answer is I need to play with a spreadsheet with data on all the ships I can be facing lol.

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I agree with all the answers, but i would like to add that when shooting at light armored targets with battleships guns the best idea is to let them turn and hit them when they are past the moment in which they show their broadside. Ideally they should be the nearest possible to the autobounce angle.

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24 minutes ago, Hawg said:

Thanks guys, very useful information.   I guess the answer is I need to play with a spreadsheet with data on all the ships I can be facing lol.

Generic "32mm high tier BB, 25/27mm high tier cruiser, 25mm mid tier BB, 16/19mm mid tier cruiser" will do the trick.

 

Deck thickness doesn't matter unless your shells overmatch it, as ricochet mechanics render "plunging fire" nonexistent in this game.

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54 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Generic "32mm high tier BB, 25/27mm high tier cruiser, 25mm mid tier BB, 16/19mm mid tier cruiser" will do the trick.

 

Deck thickness doesn't matter unless your shells overmatch it, as ricochet mechanics render "plunging fire" nonexistent in this game.

Deck thickness also matters for HE pen. Also, generic common plating is a bit iffy, as it might be true, but at times only applies to extremities (Hindenburg has 27 mm bow and stern... then 30 mm everywhere else. Gneisenau has a 25 mm stern and upper bow, then 50 mm deck, 70 mm lower bow and 45 mm casemates that laugh in your face. Furutaka has a 13 mm bow and then proceeds with 25 mm sides that bounce all T5 BB and a 48 mm deck that shrugs off whatever BB shell hits it and all HE except BB HE and Yorck...)

 

Also, common plating thickness does not explain why certain ships get overpenned more often than others. Why is a hit on a Cleveland an overpen most of the time, but on a Mogami or Chapayev with equally garbage 25 mm (or Edinburgh with even less armour), it's a ton of cits?

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When it comes to divebomber bombs i would say it feels like RNG.

 

Almost all that hit just fall though ships with overpenetration and close to no damage. Some cause a citadel hits but very low damage asif it fell through with overpenetration.

 

I'm almost happy to have HE bombs that actually cause a fire, because then there is a chance some damage is done if that player is on repair party CD.

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31 minutes ago, Seiranko said:

Deck thickness also matters for HE pen. Also, generic common plating is a bit iffy, as it might be true, but at times only applies to extremities (Hindenburg has 27 mm bow and stern... then 30 mm everywhere else. Gneisenau has a 25 mm stern and upper bow, then 50 mm deck, 70 mm lower bow and 45 mm casemates that laugh in your face. Furutaka has a 13 mm bow and then proceeds with 25 mm sides that bounce all T5 BB and a 48 mm deck that shrugs off whatever BB shell hits it and all HE except BB HE and Yorck...)

 

Also, common plating thickness does not explain why certain ships get overpenned more often than others. Why is a hit on a Cleveland an overpen most of the time, but on a Mogami or Chapayev with equally garbage 25 mm (or Edinburgh with even less armour), it's a ton of cits?

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There are always exceptions, but "generic" is common enough to start with them. 

 

And in case of Cleveland, citadel barely sticking out and being small might have something to do with not eating citadels left right front and center. Which was extra top kek back in the day when WG broke underwater AP behavior when they fixed "ricochet off citadel deck deals citadel damage" bug.

 

Odinburger citadel is somewhat low, but middle of it being overmatchable by any shell bigger than 85mm AP doesn't help there

 

28 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

When it comes to divebomber bombs i would say it feels like RNG.

 

Almost all that hit just fall though ships with overpenetration and close to no damage. Some cause a citadel hits but very low damage asif it fell through with overpenetration.

 

I'm almost happy to have HE bombs that actually cause a fire, because then there is a chance some damage is done if that player is on repair party CD.

With AP bombs against cruisers you want to drop them late, when bombers exit their dive, thus bombs hit ship at an angle, reducing chance of overpen. If you overdo with late bomb drop though, they might ricochet off:Smile_hiding:

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6 minutes ago, Panocek said:

There are always exceptions, but "generic" is common enough to start with them. 

 

And in case of Cleveland, citadel barely sticking out and being small might have something to do with not eating citadels left right front and center. Which was extra top kek back in the day when WG broke underwater AP behavior when they fixed "ricochet off citadel deck deals citadel damage" bug.

Reason I posted the different citadel sizes and positions. I thought they'd be self-explanatory.

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Just now, Seiranko said:

Reason I posted the different citadel sizes and positions. I thought they'd be self-explanatory.

You're overestimating "self explanatory" part:Smile-_tongue:

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2 hours ago, Hawg said:

Thanks guys, very useful information.   I guess the answer is I need to play with a spreadsheet with data on all the ships I can be facing lol.

On this page you can check armor scheme and module layout in 3D models of ships

 

https://gamemodels3d.com/games/worldofwarships/vehicles/pasc206

 

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Show as much broadside as possible if you're doing light cruisers => minimal damage. Angle a bit and you're dead.

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if you cant hit the citadel proper at <6km, aim for the barbette's under the turrets.

or at higher tier, the guns themselves.

the salt that you can mine if you manage to destroy all their primary guns and sail away, is of the highest quality.

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Knowing when to expect overpens or not is skill without a doubt (or game knowledge). So for most matchups the rng isnt really relevant.

 

On some targets its either overpens or citadels, but thats inherently a rng issue related to dispersion and the fact that hitting under the waterline can actually stop the shell enough to get a pen or citadel instead of an overpen.

 

Never/rarely do I get an overpen that I cant logically explain.

 

When you shoot a BB with buffalo and get overpens I can guarentee you aimed too high and hit superstructure. When you shoot another BB 15+km away and get overpens you either hit superstructure or the upper hull of a BB with thin plating of 32mm or 38mm. 

 

Look at armor layouts, AP arming thresholds, detonation timers, angles of impact, penetration at certain ranges etc. all are factors that play into figuring out if you can expect to get overpens or not. The rest comes with experience.

 

The RNG isnt really related to pens vs overpens, its just dispersion.

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13 minutes ago, Affeks said:

... the fact that hitting under the waterline can actually stop the shell enough to get a pen or citadel instead of an overpen.

Does anyone have proof that this 'mechanic' actually work?

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4 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

Does anyone have proof that this 'mechanic' actually work?

 

Well for once, ive been citadelled despite the shell clearly hitting the water next to me, so that is one indication.

I think the other option is to go into a training room and go close to a inactive bot and shoot below the waterline, maybe with a high velocity gun ship like Kronshtadt, which will overpen citadels at close range.

I for one think it definetely works, but in actual gameplay i think its hard to observe if its not happening against you. ANd even harder to execute deliberately...

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11 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

Does anyone have proof that this 'mechanic' actually work?

From time to time I do get that one weird shell that citadels despite all shells hitting under the waterline. Though the consistency is highly debatable or if maybe clientside I hit too low, but serverside that one shell actually hit the waterline.

 

To answer the question, no I have never seen any proof on this.

 

I do however vaguely remember a watertraveling coefficient of some kind being tinkered with back during CBT. Something something IJN BBs could pen better under the waterline compared to US BBs. Though idk if Im just imaginig that or if the whole concept was forgotten/scrapped by devs.

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2 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

Well for once, ive been citadelled despite the shell clearly hitting the water next to me, so that is one indication.

I think the other option is to go into a training room and go close to a inactive bot and shoot below the waterline, maybe with a high velocity gun ship like Kronshtadt, which will overpen citadels at close range.

I for one think it definetely works, but in actual gameplay i think its hard to observe if its not happening against you. ANd even harder to execute deliberately...

Yea, you're probably right. Given dispersion of shells and the extreme accuracy you need for it to result in a citadel hit, it's pure RNG at this point. In Random games, I don't see that people can use this mechanic deliberately. At close range, you aim at the waterline and hope some shells land just below...

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1 minute ago, loppantorkel said:

Yea, you're probably right. Given dispersion of shells and the extreme accuracy you need for it to result in a citadel hit, it's pure RNG at this point. In Random games, I don't see that people can use this mechanic deliberately. At close range, you aim at the waterline and hope some shells land just below...

I do deliberately do it from time to time when Im left in a kill or be killed scenario. Its not a concept I would introduce to a beginner, but def something to keep in mind if you want to risk getting out of an otherwise hopeless situation.

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8 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

At close range, you aim at the waterline and hope some shells land just below...

which is precisely "using this mechanic deliberately"... otherwise you'd just aim higher to at least let all your shells make contact even if they're just overpens.

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6 minutes ago, Affeks said:

I do deliberately do it from time to time when Im left in a kill or be killed scenario. Its not a concept I would introduce to a beginner, but def something to keep in mind if you want to risk getting out of an otherwise hopeless situation.

 

5 minutes ago, Tyrendian89 said:

which is precisely "using this mechanic deliberately"... otherwise you'd just aim higher to at least let all your shells make contact even if they're just overpens.

Some seems to deliberately aim below the waterline, which I've done a number of times to try make use of this mechanic. In my experience, it's been more successful to aim at the waterline and let dispersion work.

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