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Perekotypole

Torp/hybrid DD vs CV

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I mostly play tier 6-7 DDs. Every other game with CVs present ends with 3-4 survivng ships in each team, me in DD low HP after fighting whole match and enemy CV full health. And there's just nothing I can do from this point of the match. Planes come wave after wave, it's not even possible to hide, I don't even say cap or fight. Delay between waves is 20 seconds, bombers, torp planes any of them gonna spot DD, it's just not enough time to relocate. Before 0.8.0 DD could go after CV, it was a valid option even in badly damaged DD. Bombing or brossdropping DD required some skill... evading crossdrop required skill too. That was skill vs skill. Now it's just total feeling of helplessness as soon as number of ships is reduced to 3-5 in each team. You can't cap, you can't hide, smoke is all used, and sitting in smoke is all you can do to get CV off your back. You can't go after CV either, it's sure death for most DDs. RN DDs have smokes to get them through first half of match and not suffer from CV attention too much, but in end game planes just gonna hover 30 seconds over your smoke till it fades. It makes capping even less important with CV present, cause you can't run even if you have point lead. 

 

I've heard opinions that you have to adapt your playstyle to new realities. Like play russian DDs, don't go for caps right away. Don't play torpedo or hybrid DDs, unless they are AA oriented. New game style, that of arcade CVs introduced, and killed that of steath DD play.  There's no gain in variety for the game. And I'd argue steath DD gameplay required more skill on all sides. I don't mean that playing CV is less skill heavy, but CV vs other ships interaction involves less skill then DD - other ships. AA is automatic, spotting is almost constant in second half of the match. I start to hate CVs with all my guts.

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Stay near your teammates, keep them between you and the planes.

The times were a DD could rush a CV are over, unless your DD has AA focus and the enemy player is bad.

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Vor 53 Minuten, MortenTardo sagte:

Every ship in game must counter CV's. Da!

Who sais anything about countering CV. I'm fine with not being able to go after CV, as long as there are other things I can do, that contribute to victory. But not being able to cap nor hide once you are spotted, that's just too much. And you gonna be 100% spotted by rocket planes since torps give away your aproximate location. And capitalizing on caps and point advantage you got earlier for your team is much harder... 

 

Also I could reverse  your phrase... why is that CV should have immunity vs DDs, unless it's high remaining HP gunboat??

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2 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

Stay near your teammates, keep them between you and the planes.

The times were a DD could rush a CV are over, unless your DD has AA focus and the enemy player is bad.

 

In fact his is the only thing stopping me in a CV from damaging DD in the first minutes of a match, and lighting them up for everyone in range to shoot at.

 

Not saying that is the most fun or best thing you can do in a DD as it is now, but it keeps you alive until mid-end game. When ships get more scattered across the map and CV are comitted to attacking bigger ships in bombers DD can seize their oppertunities.

 

When confident your ship has long time/large enough smoke, your smoke not get torped by a rival DD/cruiser while hiding in it, be aware of radars and hydro's  and you switch off your AA to not give your position in the smoke away DD could still try that too. With varying results, as before the CV rework. Aircraft can't see through smoke. Can take an estimated guess if AA tracers come out of the smoke though. But can't light you up for everyone to fire at either.

 

Hiding behind islands with mountain ridges does give some protection against rockets and torpedo's too, as such obstacles make aircraft climb to higher altitudes and the aiming reticule will overshoot the ship  when aircraft will come down to sea level but still have too high altitude when passing over the ship. That does ofcourse not fly when aircraft go around that obstacle and not over it.....still it is good to know it and use it.

 

Something DD do also : they speed toward the turning aircraft after a pass. This makes the aircraft not being able to line up for a shot, or have a rediculous wide reticule which misses all rockets, forcing the aircraft to go around again. Do it again. You can turn with or outturn fighters with at least some type DD's.  Long enough for some CA/CL to come to kill the aircraft or chase them away.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Perekotypole said:

I mostly play tier 6-7 DDs. Every other game with CVs present ends with 3-4 survivng ships in each team, me in DD low HP after fighting whole match and enemy CV full health. And there's just nothing I can do from this point of the match. Planes come wave after wave, it's not even possible to hide, I don't even say cap or fight. Delay between waves is 20 seconds, bombers, torp planes any of them gonna spot DD, it's just not enough time to relocate. Before 0.8.0 DD could go after CV, it was a valid option even in badly damaged DD. Bombing or brossdropping DD required some skill... evading crossdrop required skill too. That was skill vs skill. Now it's just total feeling of helplessness as soon as number of ships is reduced to 3-5 in each team. You can't cap, you can't hide, smoke is all used, and sitting in smoke is all you can do to get CV off your back. You can't go after CV either, it's sure death for most DDs. RN DDs have smokes to get them through first half of match and not suffer from CV attention too much, but in end game planes just gonna hover 30 seconds over your smoke till it fades. It makes capping even less important with CV present, cause you can't run even if you have point lead. 

 

I've heard opinions that you have to adapt your playstyle to new realities. Like play russian DDs, don't go for caps right away. Don't play torpedo or hybrid DDs, unless they are AA oriented. New game style, that of arcade CVs introduced, and killed that of steath DD play.  There's no gain in variety for the game. And I'd argue steath DD gameplay required more skill on all sides. I don't mean that playing CV is less skill heavy, but CV vs other ships interaction involves less skill then DD - other ships. AA is automatic, spotting is almost constant in second half of the match. I start to hate CVs with all my guts.

Cruisers are the new DD's. I recommend RN or US cruisers at their AA is lethal. 

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1 hour ago, Bear_Necessities said:

Cruisers are the new DD's. I recommend RN or US cruisers at their AA is lethal. 

 

In our regular 3-man-divi, we have replaced the DD spot with a CL. Works perfect. So we go BB/CA/CL.

 

3 hours ago, Perekotypole said:

I mostly play tier 6-7 DDs.

 

I think the DDs at those tiers are feeling the worst of the CV rework. On the lower Tiers, the T4 CVs arent that much of a threat and many of the T10 DDs can defend themself pretty good against a CV. So if you can - try to avoid playing T6/T7 DDs atm? Previous patches / introductions of new ships show, that the "flavour of the month" soon loses peoples interest. So CV numbers will drop down again (they are already, for various reasons). Now from a quick look at your stats I see, that you dont have many other options, since your grind is all around T 6/7/8, so its not so easy... Maybe grind a new line or switch over to BBs / Cruisers, until things have settled a little?

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9 hours ago, Perekotypole said:

I mostly play tier 6-7 DDs. Every other game with CVs present ends with 3-4 survivng ships in each team, me in DD low HP after fighting whole match and enemy CV full health. And there's just nothing I can do from this point of the match. Planes come wave after wave, it's not even possible to hide, I don't even say cap or fight. Delay between waves is 20 seconds, bombers, torp planes any of them gonna spot DD, it's just not enough time to relocate. Before 0.8.0 DD could go after CV, it was a valid option even in badly damaged DD. Bombing or brossdropping DD required some skill... evading crossdrop required skill too. That was skill vs skill. Now it's just total feeling of helplessness as soon as number of ships is reduced to 3-5 in each team. You can't cap, you can't hide, smoke is all used, and sitting in smoke is all you can do to get CV off your back. You can't go after CV either, it's sure death for most DDs. RN DDs have smokes to get them through first half of match and not suffer from CV attention too much, but in end game planes just gonna hover 30 seconds over your smoke till it fades. It makes capping even less important with CV present, cause you can't run even if you have point lead. 

 

I've heard opinions that you have to adapt your playstyle to new realities. Like play russian DDs, don't go for caps right away. Don't play torpedo or hybrid DDs, unless they are AA oriented. New game style, that of arcade CVs introduced, and killed that of steath DD play.  There's no gain in variety for the game. And I'd argue steath DD gameplay required more skill on all sides. I don't mean that playing CV is less skill heavy, but CV vs other ships interaction involves less skill then DD - other ships. AA is automatic, spotting is almost constant in second half of the match. I start to hate CVs with all my guts.

Tier 4-6 cvs are generally not able to hurt you enough to smoke up every time, unless they spot for their teammates to shoot you. Just keep moving and dodging and let others cap when cv is focusing you. Don't move toward the enemy team under this period. If cv tires of trying to hit you - which is difficult in these tiers, move on to your regular duties. Keep your AA off under this time, and try keep away from being spotted, and save your smoke until you really need it.

 

Stay away from IJN dds until they are balanced, if you're struggling with dds. They'll be viable again in a few months.

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Just be patient in early game, and wait for opportunities later to cap.

If you feel useless in a DD you're not doing it right.

It's still hard for a CV to spot a DD because air detection range is small. Play smart.

The state of DDs is not as bad as most of players tend to whiny say here. They just didn't adapt their gameplay.

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I don't have issues in early and mid game, I hug friendlies till first plane wave passes, then go and do DD work. It's late game that troubles me, when 4-5 ships per side are left. At this point I'm in DD in a middle of a map, enemy CV is somewhere 10-12 km from me, behind island, nose in to center of the map, to reduce plane take off time. Planes take off and they are already 6-8 km from center of the map. Even if at that point we have 2 of 3 caps and nice point lead, I can't capitalize on that, cause it's impossible to hide and survive. And at this point there's just nothing I can do to be useful to the team. That's why ppl recommend russian DDs, those can hug friendlies and shoot at 10+ km and actually hurt targets. 

 

Btw, tier 7 isn't bad for matchmaking as DD at all. I'm matched vs hiers tiers quite often, radars etc, but I'm rarely matched vs hier tier DDs, and those are real pain. Tier 6 and 7 DDs are quite nicely ballanced, ones have better concealment, others better firepower, but tier 8-9 DDs have even better conceal then tier 6 and better firepower. There are less DD players at tier 9-10 now, so they are rarely thrown into lower tier matches. 

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Wait until you have the joy of meeting a CV who took radio location.... Now that puts you as DD out of the match completely.

I survived the first half of the match, only to find out I could do absolutely nothing in the 2nd half. I could not cap, I could not spot, all I could do was hug this big friendly cruiser and be useless (I already ran out of smokes from the first half).

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32 minutes ago, Zigiran said:

Wait until you have the joy of meeting a CV who took radio location.... Now that puts you as DD out of the match completely.

I survived the first half of the match, only to find out I could do absolutely nothing in the 2nd half. I could not cap, I could not spot, all I could do was hug this big friendly cruiser and be useless (I already ran out of smokes from the first half).

I notice very few CV players actually using this skill.

I used it btw, till the carriers got a hefty nerf to their torp bombers and I moved the captains to other ships (I did put some lowly spare caps back so i could at least play them in some way).

 

But other than that I'm doing very well with DD in the current meta.

Atm I'm grinding Benson, after having elited the 2 t6 IJN DDs

 

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Work closely with cruisers and battleships. Consider using premium consumables or taking the Superintendent skill for more smokes. Alternatively consider a light cruiser like Leader or Huang He: with DD numbers down they can be very strong around caps and have decent AA (very good in the latter case). 

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18 hours ago, Perekotypole said:

I mostly play tier 6-7 DDs.

My feeling is that you have a number of options, of varying degrees of desirability (in no particular order):

  • Only play DDs that have actively good AA, and build them accordingly, if you want to play even remotely like the 'old' DDs; be aware that this'll gimp you a bit against ships.
  • Play DDs that have bad to okay(ish) AA, but accept that you'll have to spend quite a bit of time hiding under mummy's skirts, as it were, if you're in a CV game.
  • Give up DDs as a bad job for the moment, and take a ship that can viably threaten planes.

In terms of play style, the second option does involve a major revision; the first one less so, perhaps: the key problem with CVs (for DDs) is spotting, rather than damage. You should already be familiar with the basics of playing in a radar-heavy environment (your T6-7s should already regularly encounter radar); broadly-speaking, similar methodology applies to dealing with CVs too: accept that you will be spotted more often that not, and play/position accordingly - the key threat to you is other ships, and they still can't shoot through islands etc.

 

Make it a habit to default to having your AA off (p key is the toggle); this makes planes hunt for slightly longer before spotting you, and they won't acquire you until they are well within your AA bubble (switch on Def AA at this point); if you can kill a few planes, the CV is more likely to leave you alone and pick on something easier. To repeat though, the danger is being shot by other ships once the planes spot you, so keep an eye on your positioning, such that the fewest enemies can shoot you when you do get lit up.

 

As you alluded to, the best AA DDs are generally US or Russian ones; I favour the Americans, as they are more well-rounded in the event that you don't get a CV, and their smoke is excellent (don't forget though, a good CV driver can still target you in smoke from your tracers). The Americans can also stealth torp from T7 (ignoring the T6 premium, which loses a lot of gun power to do it), which is very helpful in a meta that values stand-off distance.

 

So, with Americans (and some Russians) you can still play similarly to pre-rework, but with some slight differences, mainly in emphasis/priorities; also, there is less need for early capping (and ignore silly sods who flame you for this in-game), so long as you don't neglect the caps entirely.

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Consider Ognevoi and Fletcher/Chung Mu, both good torpboats and both have potentially good AA. Yes, the new meta sucks for stealthy ships and everyone saw it coming. On the bright side, you can end up shooting down a lot more planes than ever before.

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I'll try american line... but to me american DDs up to mahan included seem week, I never considered them a threat in my DDs, and rarely have troubles killing them. Problematic are only those who don't smoke and run away after traiding HP with me. I lost HP (he as well), and I haven't solved the issue of enemy DD presence on my flank. But usually maass and jervis have enough firepower to force them into smoke.

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8 minutes ago, Perekotypole said:

I'll try american line... but to me american DDs up to mahan included seem week

 

Mahan now effectively has Benson guns, so it can hurt a lot. That's if it can get close enough, which with that concealment and speed takes some finesse.

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18 hours ago, NothingButTheRain said:

I notice very few CV players actually using this skill.

RPF helps you a lot against DDs, but... you just don't need that help. You learn the general location of a DD by flying within <your planes detection radius> and noticing that the planes had been spotted. Then you make a circle and find the DD. Then you proceed to make the poor guy's life miserable. RPF lets you circumvent the initial steps but even without it you are so powerful that it feels like spending 4 points on a crutch you just don't really need.

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6 hours ago, eliastion said:

 but even without it you are so powerful that it feels like spending 4 points on a crutch you just don't really need.

I find that even if you survive the opening minutes of a game, come end game and you are a DD with the inevitably surviving CV, the CV is absolutely lethal against a DD (and other ships as well) and will clean up if enough time remains.

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8 hours ago, Perekotypole said:

I'll try american line... but to me american DDs up to mahan included seem week, I never considered them a threat in my DDs, and rarely have troubles killing them.

I struggled a bit with the lower tier US DDs, especially early on; for me, the main problem was the lack of stealth torping (until you unlock the relevant upgrade at T7), and the fact I wasn't good at knowing when to open fire, and when to preserve stealth.

 

The thing with the US line is that you pretty much have to make use of your guns to do consistent damage, especially T6 and below, and the rainbow arcs make that quite hard to do, especially at longer range. Their flaky stealth also makes CE especially important, which you often don't have yet on captains for your lower tiers.

 

If you have a good captain, the US DDs get a lot more dangerous too: on top of the 'standard' 10-point DD build, take BFT and AR (probably in that order); as well as boosting your AA, it'll give you quite ludicrous dakka once you've taken a bit of damage (if you're not taking at least some damage, you're probably doing it wrong, or obscenely good at dodging!). The problem is that you're looking at a 12-15 point captain at lower tiers...

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54 minutes ago, philjd said:

I find that even if you survive the opening minutes of a game, come end game and you are a DD with the inevitably surviving CV, the CV is absolutely lethal against a DD (and other ships as well) and will clean up if enough time remains.

CVs have a bit different... useflness/time characteristic than most ships. CV's early-game usefulness is basically restricted to hunting DDs and spotting. The big advantage of CVs is that they tend to live long (if they decide to compromise their usefulness they can practically guarantee remaining alive - nobody will waste time on trying to look for a CV at the map border) and that they are the more dangerous the more dispersed and more damaged the enemy fleet is - both factors, obviously, tend to be at their peak in the end game. This means that CVs make very good janitors - hunting down the remnants is where they can sometimes really shine, more than making up for their limited usefulness in the earlier stages. On the other hand, this is also why the average damage dealt by CVs is deceptive when combined with other classes - these big numbers only really matter in a reasonably even end-game, because most of it is that very end-game damage. CVs can turn matches no other class could... but usually it doesn't. Usually it just constitutes last struggles of the defeated or the cleanup by the victor. Both scenarios have in common the fact that the game is decided long before CVs can trully flex some muscle against anything that's not a destroyer.

 

Another thing that should be noted is that all this analysis assumes that the CV puts the bare minimum of effort into conserving the planes properly. If you deplane yourself, you'll see just how "infinite" your planes really are. As lethal as an end-game CV is, this doesn't really work that well when you see a DD coming for you while you yourself have the magnificent choice of taking off with 2 rocket planes, 1 torpedo bomber or 4 AP dive bombers because you managed to, errm, misplace everything else.

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