Carrier short stroke torps and general balance

[Wat3rs]

So! a wierd and odd title you may say, well it has a foundation in something let me explain it to you all!

 

What I've experienced a few times and more and more as i rank up and face more skilled players is a technique which i find quiete BS if I may put it so when it comes to Carriers ability to "manually" torp someone and they can make the planes spin piruettes like a ballerina making hard to understand how or when he's gonna torp you or if they're already down that's not so bad I say it looks riddicolous but it's not as bad as what follow I've noticed that many stressed and skilled Carrier players have perfected the  followup technique to the earlier method and that's to drop the torps at a minimal distance from your ship where I've noticed even with as many manuevering upgrades as possible on a destroyer the torps just landed far too close to my ship to avoid them I'm speaking meters from the ship making it almost instantly explode and it doesn't matter if the broadside to the bow of the ship is facing the torps one is bound to hit and if not in the first attempt most likely the 2nd one.

 

Now to a matter that's not as game breaking or annoying but should get some revision and that Cruisers are slightly too strong and battleships are slightly too weak, I've seen many fights between slow battleships and slow carriers and I just think all in all battleships are quiet unimpressive they're slow, they're easy to predict, easy to avoid and easy destroy it's true if they get lucky and get a good shot off you can go into smokes but there's so many cons in comparision to a cruiser which has slightly less firepower but a heck alot more combat proffiencency, where they actually have the ability to avoid torps, they can send away their own torps (some) often good AA capabilities and decent firepower and they can hunt everything from a battleships to a destroyer and a carrier there's nothing they're particulary weak against.

 

Just a slight revision how torping works and something to make battleships more a force to reckoned with for example longer range on secondary arnaments or alike just giving battleship players an ability to fight back between reloads and shots that doesn't instantly kill the enemy.

[AgarwaenME]

What you're claiming is factually wrong. Carrier torpedoes have an arming range, meaning any torpedo dropped "meters" from your ship will harmlessly bounce off the hull without exploding. Secondly, the space between torpedoes is more than large enough for any head of attack on nearly any ship, nevermind something as nimble as a destroyer, be an extremely silly thing for a CV captain to do.

 

Basicly, for a CV captain to attack a destroyer with his torpedo squadron is something that's only done out of #1 complete incompetence or #2 desperately trying to keep an attacking destroyer away from his carrier. And the last not so much because you ever expect to hit one, but to make him loose time and speed in his pursuit (and possibly give his secondary guns a chance to finish off a wounded destroyer).

[_ramrus_]

That's just your opinion. I have experience on all classes and you have to play carriers to understand their mechanics, also it might give you more insight into arming ranges.

Battleships too weak ? I just cannot understand that one.

[Pekoe_Darjeeling]

On high tiers I have already seen a squadron of torp. bombers "dancing" like crazy begin unable to predict where he will attack then throwing torpedos in a very close range to my BB. I guess when they fix planes it won't be that easy to do so giving you more time to change course but beside that It's a best tactic I have seen to attack an enemy BB by planes.

[JapLance]

The problem is that in this game planes move and turn like Tie Fighters, not like WW2 era planes. That behaviour beyond the laws of Physics allow them to make really awkward maneuvers to attack in otherwise impossible positions. Add to that that torpedo squadrons launch their torpedoes as if they were flying wing tip to wing tip (another impossible feature) and you have a massively broken feature.

 

Problem is not the torpedoes. Problem is the platforms that launch them.

[AgarwaenME]

On high tiers I have already seen a squadron of torp. bombers "dancing" like crazy begin unable to predict where he will attack then throwing torpedos in a very close range to my BB. I guess when they fix planes it won't be that easy to do so giving you more time to change course but beside that It's a best tactic I have seen to attack an enemy BB by planes.

 

Except against a ship that's already moving a torp bomber squadron will use significant time (if it's at all possible due to other ships and aircraft) to get from one side of the ship to another.Remember, that squadron not only has to get to the other side, but it needs to move around the 5k+ circle of AAA surrounding any t5+ ship. Ships actually move at a very respectable fractions of aircrafts speeds so this adds on time to the already long "reload" time on CV attacks.

 

And based on your speed and heading there's a total of TWO positions from where to drop torpedoes to make them as hard as possible to avoid. Any other attack vector will ensure the victim can easily avoid most if not all.

 

It seems to me that some people think you should always be able to avoid everything, as if that's the case with any other ships attack.

 

[AgarwaenME]

The problem is that in this game planes move and turn like Tie Fighters, not like WW2 era planes. That behaviour beyond the laws of Physics allow them to make really awkward maneuvers to attack in otherwise impossible positions. Add to that that torpedo squadrons launch their torpedoes as if they were flying wing tip to wing tip (another impossible feature) and you have a massively broken feature.

 

Problem is not the torpedoes. Problem is the platforms that launch them.

 

So what about BB's that can accellerate so quickly that a stationary BB can just go full speed ahead (or reverse if the torps are dropped half across the bow to avoid that) and avoid every torpedo dropped at minimum distance? This even affects naval guns. This isn't "beyond" the laws of physics?

 

Problem is indeed not torpedoes. Problem are the people that can't be bothered learning to avoid them or that think they should be excused from paying attention or that as the only attack in the game you should always be able to not be affected by it.

[JapLance]

Acceleration and deceleration maybe exaggerated due to gameplay reasons (otherwise a battleship wouldn't have reached even half speed at the end of the game), but in general the behaviour of the ships doesn't "feel" too bad.

 

Planes, on the other hand...

[AgarwaenME]

Acceleration and deceleration maybe exaggerated due to gameplay reasons (otherwise a battleship wouldn't have reached even half speed at the end of the game), but in general the behaviour of the ships doesn't "feel" too bad.

 

Planes, on the other hand...

 

Nice to know you can excuse whatever suits your bias.

 

Try actually playing a mid to high tier CV, then come back.

[McLeod]

 

So what about BB's that can accellerate so quickly that a stationary BB can just go full speed ahead (or reverse if the torps are dropped half across the bow to avoid that) and avoid every torpedo dropped at minimum distance? This even affects naval guns. This isn't "beyond" the laws of physics?

 

Problem is indeed not torpedoes. Problem are the people that can't be bothered learning to avoid them or that think they should be excused from paying attention or that as the only attack in the game you should always be able to not be affected by it.

 

No BB in the game is going to avoid a well placed torp run form bombers if he is stationary, no matter how quickly it accelerates.  In my experience even Kongo's and Myogi's (2 quickest BB's) will still eat at least 8 torps if I attack them while they are stationary and they start moving - time it right and they will munch all 12.

[AgarwaenME]

 

No BB in the game is going to avoid a well placed torp run form bombers if he is stationary, no matter how quickly it accelerates.  In my experience even Kongo's and Myogi's (2 quickest BB's) will still eat at least 8 torps if I attack them while they are stationary and they start moving - time it right and they will munch all 12.

 

This simply is not correct. Just consider that a perfectly aimed spread will barely be able to hit with all torpedoes to begin with, thus clearly one against a ship that starts to move will never be able to land all of them.  Secondly, actually try it. Thirdly, I said a SINGLE squadron. And lastly, it would be against someone that actually knows what to do, and when seeing a torp launch across his bow (as I wrote, gg on you for not managing to read it) will simply go in reverse and avoid even more.

[Diedel]

 

This simply is not correct. Just consider that a perfectly aimed spread will barely be able to hit with all torpedoes to begin with, thus clearly one against a ship that starts to move will never be able to land all of them.  Secondly, actually try it. Thirdly, I said a SINGLE squadron. And lastly, it would be against someone that actually knows what to do, and when seeing a torp launch across his bow (as I wrote, gg on you for not managing to read it) will simply go in reverse and avoid even more.

 

A perfectly aimed manual drop gives you around 2-3 seconds time till they hit, i have no idea how you are going to get a BB moving that fast to even avoid a few of them.

[JapLance]

 

Nice to know you can excuse whatever suits your bias.

 

Try actually playing a mid to high tier CV, then come back.

 

Nice to see you have nothing to back up your position.

 

And no, I'm not playing carriers, because I don't think they belong to a naval game. Air-naval battles are a completely different matter in which fleets don't shoot at each other. If it was up to me, there would be no planes (and thus, no aircraft carriers) in this game, just like there are no planes in WoT.

 

But this has nothing to do with the fact that the planes don't act as planes in WoWs.

[Bl4ckh0g]

 

And no, I'm not playing carriers, because I don't think they belong to a naval game.

 

ROFL Aircraft carriers do not belong in a naval game?

Mate Aircraft carriers won the pacific. 

One of the most advanced Battleship of all times- The Iowa class was basically a Carrier escort throughout her whole career.

damn

Carriers do not belong in a naval game.

Good one.

They should paint the seas red with blood not degraded to some kind of support role.

 

Hyay that was a good one.... 

[AgarwaenME]

 

Nice to see you have nothing to back up your position.

 

And no, I'm not playing carriers, because I don't think they belong to a naval game. Air-naval battles are a completely different matter in which fleets don't shoot at each other. If it was up to me, there would be no planes (and thus, no aircraft carriers) in this game, just like there are no planes in WoT.

 

But this has nothing to do with the fact that the planes don't act as planes in WoWs.

 

I already made my point. And again you show you rather avoid things that doesn't suit your bias (ie, ships not behaving like physics would allow them to, and that aircraft plays loose with physics to even be usable, nor that it would make the game particularly much better to spend time adding flight physics to it). I mean, your bias isn't merely that you don't like being sunk by them, you actually want CVs gone altogether, a rather laughable prospect in a game mostly based around WWII era ships (and before you go "omg they're from before that", sure many were built earlier, however as they're shown in the game it is with rebuilds and setups from that time).

[McLeod]

 

This simply is not correct. Just consider that a perfectly aimed spread will barely be able to hit with all torpedoes to begin with, thus clearly one against a ship that starts to move will never be able to land all of them.  Secondly, actually try it. Thirdly, I said a SINGLE squadron. And lastly, it would be against someone that actually knows what to do, and when seeing a torp launch across his bow (as I wrote, gg on you for not managing to read it) will simply go in reverse and avoid even more.

 

I have tried it and as I know what I am doing, myself and any other competent carrier player would never attack a stationary BB from across his bow. The attack run would always be perpendicular to the facing direction to maximise torpedo impacts.  if it is starting to move I would simply stagger the drops to again maximise impacts.

Also I'm sorry but in your post that I quoted it doesn't say a single squadron and as I was responding to that post - not your earlier ones I based my response on my standard 2 squadron attack.

[AgarwaenME]

 

A perfectly aimed manual drop gives you around 2-3 seconds time till they hit, i have no idea how you are going to get a BB moving that fast to even avoid a few of them.

 

In two seconds none of your torpedoes will have armed. But nice try.

[Baron432]

Yeah. A stationary BB isn't such an "auto-hit" target, especially when it is able to move backward as well

 

[Hauptbahnhof]

 

And no, I'm not playing carriers, because I don't think they belong to a naval game. Air-naval battles are a completely different matter in which fleets don't shoot at each other. If it was up to me, there would be no planes (and thus, no aircraft carriers) in this game, just like there are no planes in WoT.

 

But this has nothing to do with the fact that the planes don't act as planes in WoWs.

 

Did you read about the Battle of Samar? Carrier airplanes bombing Yamato and the fleet at the same time they were firing back on the Carriers and USN fleet. It was part of a combined Naval-Air battle of Leyte Gulf ( the largest naval battle in modern History ).

Or about the Bismarck ( sunk by a combination of air attack and fleet attacks )?

 

 

In two seconds none of your torpedoes will have armed. But nice try.

 

I'm pretty sure the arming time is around roughly 2 seconds. The carrier needs to commit to the final torpedo run and "lock" where the manual drop should happen much earlier then that though...

[AgarwaenME]

 

Did you read about the Battle of Samar? Carrier airplanes bombing Yamato and the fleet at the same time they were firing back on the Carriers and USN fleet. It was part of a combined Naval-Air battle of Leyte Gulf ( the largest naval battle in modern History ).

Or about the Bismarck ( sunk by a combination of air attack and fleet attacks )?

 

 

I'm pretty sure the arming time is around roughly 2 seconds. The carrier needs to commit to the final torpedo run and "lock" where the manual drop should happen much earlier then that though...

 

While I can't find any actual data for the speeds on air launched torpedoes. The quickest DD launched torpedoes are in the order of 60-70 knots. In two seconds these travel about 70-80 meters, less than half the length of a Fusõ. Have you ever tried dropping air launched torpedoes that close and have them arm in time?

[Hauptbahnhof]

 

While I can't find any actual data for the speeds on air launched torpedoes. The quickest DD launched torpedoes are in the order of 60-70 knots. In two seconds these travel about 70-80 meters, less than half the length of a Fusõ. Have you ever tried dropping air launched torpedoes that close and have them arm in time?

 

I've been hit by many torpedoes dropped far less then one ship-length away on my Fuso, Nagato, Amagi and Yamato Battleships yes

 

Also I'm pretty sure the distances are in some way compressed since if you point your cursor one shiplength away and press alt it will show something like 600 meters, not 200-300.

 

The torpedoes that are airdropped appear to be pretty fast and cover around one ship-length in around 3 seconds, and as I wrote you can get hit by torpedoes dropped less then one shiplength away.

[JapLance]

 

ROFL Aircraft carriers do not belong in a naval game?

Mate Aircraft carriers won the pacific. 

One of the most advanced Battleship of all times- The Iowa class was basically a Carrier escort throughout her whole career.

damn

Carriers do not belong in a naval game.

Good one.

They should paint the seas red with blood not degraded to some kind of support role.

 

Hyay that was a good one.... 

 

Guess that some people need very thorough explanations to get the ideas. In a purely naval game like WoWs planes have no place. Had you kept reading my post, you would have noticed that I made a distinction between naval and air-naval. WoWs is a naval game with planes thrown in as an excuse to include aircraft carriers. If someone wants to sink ships using planes, there's another game in the franchise. In WoWs this is very poorly implemented, just like Artillery in WoT.

 

 

I already made my point. And again you show you rather avoid things that doesn't suit your bias (ie, ships not behaving like physics would allow them to, and that aircraft plays loose with physics to even be usable, nor that it would make the game particularly much better to spend time adding flight physics to it). I mean, your bias isn't merely that you don't like being sunk by them, you actually want CVs gone altogether, a rather laughable prospect in a game mostly based around WWII era ships (and before you go "omg they're from before that", sure many were built earlier, however as they're shown in the game it is with rebuilds and setups from that time).

 

Ships behaviour is more or less well depicted. Planes are not, at all.

 

 

Did you read about the Battle of Samar? Carrier airplanes bombing Yamato and the fleet at the same time they were firing back on the Carriers and USN fleet. It was part of a combined Naval-Air battle of Leyte Gulf ( the largest naval battle in modern History ).

Or about the Bismarck ( sunk by a combination of air attack and fleet attacks )?

 

I can assure you that you don't need to tell me anything about naval combat in WW2.

 

By the way, as far as I know Bismark never had to face planes and ships at the same time. Maybe you need to read about it.

[AgarwaenME]

 

I've been hit by many torpedoes dropped far less then one ship-length away on my Fuso, Nagato, Amagi and Yamato Battleships yes

 

Also I'm pretty sure the distances are in some way compressed since if you point your cursor one shiplength away and press alt it will show something like 600 meters, not 200-300.

 

The torpedoes that are airdropped appear to be pretty fast and cover around one ship-length in around 3 seconds.

 

Thing is, have you actually dropped torpedoes that close and not just imagined you knew at what range they were dropped? Because through trial.. and lots of error.. I've found that dropping anything that close will guarantee none explode on impact.

[Blue_Bug]

So! a wierd and odd title you may say, well it has a foundation in something let me explain it to you all!

 

What I've experienced a few times and more and more as i rank up and face more skilled players is a technique which i find quiete BS if I may put it so when it comes to Carriers ability to "manually" torp someone and they can make the planes spin piruettes like a ballerina making hard to understand how or when he's gonna torp you or if they're already down that's not so bad I say it looks riddicolous but it's not as bad as what follow I've noticed that many stressed and skilled Carrier players have perfected the  followup technique to the earlier method and that's to drop the torps at a minimal distance from your ship where I've noticed even with as many manuevering upgrades as possible on a destroyer the torps just landed far too close to my ship to avoid them I'm speaking meters from the ship making it almost instantly explode and it doesn't matter if the broadside to the bow of the ship is facing the torps one is bound to hit and if not in the first attempt most likely the 2nd one.

 

Now to a matter that's not as game breaking or annoying but should get some revision and that Cruisers are slightly too strong and battleships are slightly too weak, I've seen many fights between slow battleships and slow carriers and I just think all in all battleships are quiet unimpressive they're slow, they're easy to predict, easy to avoid and easy destroy it's true if they get lucky and get a good shot off you can go into smokes but there's so many cons in comparision to a cruiser which has slightly less firepower but a heck alot more combat proffiencency, where they actually have the ability to avoid torps, they can send away their own torps (some) often good AA capabilities and decent firepower and they can hunt everything from a battleships to a destroyer and a carrier there's nothing they're particulary weak against.

 

Just a slight revision how torping works and something to make battleships more a force to reckoned with for example longer range on secondary arnaments or alike just giving battleship players an ability to fight back between reloads and shots that doesn't instantly kill the enemy.

 

 

And again: All of these points already discussed on the forum. To qoute BigBadVuk :"Search is your friend".

 

If a CV captain managed to drop his Torpedo's so close to a DD , I have to congratulate him/her on his skill. Please try to do this your self.

[Hauptbahnhof]

 

Guess that some people need very thorough explanations to get the ideas. In a purely naval game like WoWs planes have no place.

 

The Carrier was the dominating Naval vessel during the time-period and you want them not represented at all?

 

It would be like making world of tanks without any heavy tanks or world of warplanes without fighters...

 

Any game in WW2 setting that is "purely naval" without having naval aviation take part will also be a purely fantasy game. History saw almost 200 aircraft carriers being built globally during the era and they came to dominate the oceans...

 

If you want a naval game without Carriers you should ask for a game modelling the WW1 or earlier eras, not ask for history to be changed to accommodate your fantasy games.

 

By the way, as far as I know Bismark never had to face planes and ships at the same time. Maybe you need to read about it.

And in World of Warships does the Carrier airplane torpedoes and shells always impact at the same time? Or perhaps does it work like in history when they can attack different targets at different times and from different ranges?