Hotfix #3 - a consumer view - Shokaku (VIII)

[Yaskaraxx]

...we need urgently a 3rd hotfix aiming to make the Shokaku (VIII) slightly playable. At present that Shokaku is horrible and extremely frustrating to play. I have no doubt in my mind soon not one player will play any silver carriers any longer, they will all stop playing them, because those silver carriers are simply horrible playing/handling/performing. My experiences with Shokaku (VIII):

 

1)

damage done is extremely low, unbelievable. compare, all my destroyers do triple damage with just some shooting and torping in 20% of time.

2)

to play a carrier 20 minutes takes a lot of "energy" while ya get totally, totally NOTHING out of it (only frustration and extreme low score)

3)

Shokaku (VIII) planes are NO MATCH for any cruisers t7 + T8 and battleships T7 + T8. Take for instance a Bismarck VIII...= same tier, yeah???!!.....well it vaporizes ALL yr planes in just 3 seconds from 7-8 kms range????? ALL US ships (except destroyers) are totally DEADLY for all Shokaku planes.

4)

while all yr planes are shot out of the skies in just a few seconds while in attack-strike...same time, ya have ta wait incredibly long time ta get any planes back???....makes ya fell asleep....getting a drink...or just make some telephone call cuz nothing else ta do next 6 minutes, ya have no adequate number of planes for som 6 minutes???

5)

I never ever understood why destroyers so afraid for carriers???...i mean, they can scout ya, but doing any real damage with Shokaku on a destroyer is almost impossible (ya would need at need 4x-plane-runs, will bring ya 7-8K dmg at most if ya are lucky)

6)

I have watched earlier the vid stream by WG (was a nice one, yes)...they said: T8 carriers balanced towards other ship-classes u/i T8 and be bit carefull when attacking T9 and T10 cruisers + bb's....that, I can fully understand. BUT, why is it, in practice that ALL t8 cruisers + battleships totally vaporize me planes from afar (not even in attack-mode on those...just speeding around) in just some 3-4 secs??? There certainly is NO BALANCE there!! I experienced. And do not try to attack any T8 enemy ships cuz they vaporize ya, ALL yr planes. So, where is the balance???? uhhhhh???

7)

I have no problem making enemy players happy the easy ways (i like it to see other players having great time, i realy do, is great for game)...but..that one cannot drive toooo far: I am ALSO here for me own relaxation and getting some some fun out of battles (i invest 20 minutes in them???!)...and at present I get totally, totally nothing out of it (= playing Shokaku): record low level of damage done, all other players making "fool" out of me Shokaku(VIII)...leaving me after battle with bad, very bad feeling of "waste-of-time-big-time". This for me is NOT balanced gaming!!

8)

Guess i could leave it with just some scouting & flying around + making fighter-zones..yeah....next I would gonna ask me Grandmother ta play the Shokaku (VIII) that way, just some flying around, and stay away from ANY ship!!...yeah, she would like it AND she would do fine

9)

I am always 100% pure positive player and person (= my character)...always constructive, always liking changes and games evolving even higher level, that is for sure. But about Shokaku present state, it represents by far the most frustrating, irritating and worst ship in WoWS i ever played and experienced, horrible is the right word ta use here, yeah!!...totally unbelievable what has happened here....anyway I gonna get rid of my carriers now, I HAVE HAD IT!!!, and i will never ever give any carriers a second look again; they took to much of my time already and brought me very, very many hours of pure frustration!!!

 

I do not KNOW and can not understand why WG nerfed those carriers in such extreme ways; I dont even wanna know, I just am a consumer logging game(s) for fun & entertaining and at present state Shokaku totally ruins my drive to play carriers any longer, soooo frustrating, laughable.

 

As i see it, as a player, as a consumer: see to it asap that the carriers get buffed in next hotfix #3 cuz if not, i figure ALL carrier-players will stop-playing-carriers ---> resulting a game without planes----> would be a very slow-paced and non-vibrant game almost stationary game without any progress possibilities with regard to the  (near) future. I would so much regret seeing that happing!...SO BUFF YR CARRIERS IN HOTFIX #3 ASAP!!!! If possible within next couple of days.

 

[hgbn_dk]

Considering that maximum AA range is 6 km, how do ships manage to shoot down aircraft at 7-8 km??

[__Helmut_Kohl__]

Try to evade the black puffs and don't go in a straight line (or change your speed at least) - #1 advice for complaining BBs and CVs now...

 

I agree though, that playing Shokaku feels like beating yourself up.

[Yaskaraxx]

...this game NEEDS ITS PLANES (= vital ingredient) to make is faster-paced + more vibrant + less stationary (=dull, boring)...aimed at the masses fully focused great entertainment. Next the great submarines introduced as the next great tricky-pepper-ingredient and they arrive at having created the real true "great legendary pie" (some call it "The Theatre of WAR", yeah, agree, fully) for the many years to follow...would boost this game eu-server-logged-in-players >70K enthusiastic motivated players. Yeah, this is a great game, no doubt(!!) and this CAN be done......SO DO THAT, GO FOR IT!!!!....instead of using the breaks all the time for the silver carriers, instead go for higher gear! We need the carriers (is vital), their planes for the game, so better do not nerfing them to bottom ocean, cuz players simply stop playing any carriers, would be the logical result.

 

Above is meant for future "new-carrier-players";  I myself decided already ta fully stop playing carriers any longer & will never ever give them a second look any more. Above is meant for future carrier players. I am out, no carriers any more for me, bye!

 

[ChatBanForSayingTruth]

Well shitty shokaku kinda prepares you to shitty hakuryu at its current state.

[WeGreedy]

32 minutes ago, Yaskaraxx said:

damage done is extremely low, unbelievable. compare, all my destroyers do triple damage with just some shooting and torping in 20% of time.

Just checked, no.

[1MajorKoenig]

27 minutes ago, __Helmut_Kohl__ said:

Try to evade the black puffs and don't go in a straight line (or change your speed at least) - #1 advice for complaining BBs and CVs now...

 

I agree though, that playing Shokaku feels like beating yourself up.

 

Problem at T6+8 is more the constant AA DPS

[Yaskaraxx]

...anyway, i leave it ta others now, i am not forumite, i am here for playing the game and for having some fun/entertainment in me "in-betweens-spare-times"...gonna go full dark now, have totally had it with those silver carriers & all the nerfings ahhh, costed me too many hours already, so bye good luck, I am out, cheers, yaskara xx

[Xevious_Red]

With the shokaku (and IJN in general) you dont have time to linger in AA, so dont be trying to circle inside the AA, and dont try to air brake your planes. If you air brake your planes to allow time for the reticle to close properly then it causes the flak to be much more condensed, which kills you. It also means you spend more time in the short/mid AA which have some very high DPS numbers.

Instead you want to start your attack run early (7km is a good start point) and BOOST towards the target. This gives you time foe the reticle to close, while spending comparitively less time in the mid/short. It also spreads the flak out so its easier to dodge.

When you drop you can then boost over them and away to get out of range before trying another run.

 

Alternatively you can utilise the 5km torps to drop 5km away and peel off - this means you're only subjected to the long range AA which is lesser. You do need to lead a lot though for this.

 

 

[DreadArchangel]

The carriers in general are not that much fun to play right now, to little damage for very little rewards. The  second patch concerning the aa has worked, but the carrier gameplay is just meh.......

[DocStrangeFruit]

59 minutes ago, hgbn_dk said:

Considering that maximum AA range is 6 km, how do ships manage to shoot down aircraft at 7-8 km??

Er you might want to get your facts correct before posting trash on the forums matey.

 

My Minotaur, Worchester and Des Moines have between 6.9km AA range with flags and AA buffs.

[hgbn_dk]

I stand corrected my bad

[ForlornSailor]

@Yaskaraxx if you were honest, you would mention what T8 CVs do in T6 games.

 

Also, there is not going to be a 3rd Hotfix - or do you see any critical bugs that need immidiate attention?

[asalonen]

If anything, I would expect CV's to be nerfed across the tiers within a month or two. They are too strong. 

 

I didn't play the CV's in public test at all, so I started from zero when 0.8.0 was released. I had some initial struggles in the Hosho before I got my CV *hit together. However, I now have a win rate of 72,5 % in the tier 6's after 40 games. It doesn't feel like a fluke anymore, and if anything it might go up with a bit more practice. 

 

I'm a solid player, but just not that good. My division buddy is saying it's essentially the same story in tiers 8 and 10. We've always had one CV in the division since the release of 0.8.0 and have all seen win rates like never before.

 

Also, @El2aZeR's stats in Midway are absolutely ridiculous, in an environment that is likely more CV-hostile than ever before.

 

I'm not sure how exactly this should be done, but currently good CV players just seem too omni-potent. Aerial detection range could lowered, also possibly making it dependant on ship speed, to give DD's a better chance of sneaking around. Possibly rockets could be made less accurate so that especially hitting fast targets (the low-health DD) would be more difficult. Possibly all of these and then some. 

 

I don't personally mind the current state of affairs, since the CV's are fun to play, and winning is not only fun but also easier than ever before. But don't expect a CV buff if the game balance clearly needs a nerf.

[El2aZeR]

1 minute ago, asalonen said:

Also, @El2aZeR's stats in Midway are absolutely ridiculous, in an environment that is likely be more CV-unfriendly than ever before.

 

Don't bother mentioning me around this guy. According to him I am one of the worst players in the game.

[Humorpalanta]

Just now, El2aZeR said:

 

Don't bother mentioning me around this guy. According to him I am one of the worst players in the game.

Yes you are. You filthy little piece of humanlike reptile. 

(Because you show them how terrible they are) 

[Xevious_Red]

46 minutes ago, Dr_Strangefruit said:

Er you might want to get your facts correct before posting trash on the forums matey.

 

My Minotaur, Worchester and Des Moines have between 6.9km AA range with flags and AA buffs.

They'd have 6.9km range even if you didnt take any AA upgrades - theres nothing that increases the range. However OP wasnt complaining about those ships, he was saying a bismarck was killing them at 8km

[ClappingLollies]

18 minutes ago, asalonen said:

If anything, I would expect CV's to be nerfed across the tiers within a month or two. They are too strong. 

 

I didn't play the CV's in public test at all, so I started from zero when 0.8.0 was released. I had some initial struggles in the Hosho before I got my CV *hit together. However, I now have a win rate of 72,5 % in the tier 6's after 40 games. It doesn't feel like a fluke anymore, and if anything it might go up with a bit more practice. 

 

I'm a solid player, but just not that good. My division buddy is saying it's essentially the same story in tiers 8 and 10. We've always had one CV in the division since the release of 0.8.0 and have all seen win rates like never before.

 

Also, @El2aZeR's stats in Midway are absolutely ridiculous, in an environment that is likely more CV-hostile than ever before.

 

I'm not sure how exactly this should be done, but currently good CV players just seem too omni-potent. Aerial detection range could lowered, also possibly making it dependant on ship speed, to give DD's a better chance of sneaking around. Possibly rockets could be made less accurate so that especially hitting fast targets (the low-health DD) would be more difficult. Possibly all of these and then some. 

 

I don't personally mind the current state of affairs, since the CV's are fun to play, and winning is not only fun but also easier than ever before. But don't expect a CV buff if the game balance clearly needs a nerf.

Think he is talking about the IJN line, not the USN line. IJN line got hammered by the "hotfixes" because of Haku. 

 

And the last time i checked the Midway was not from the IJN line.

Midway seems strong still tho. (Dont have her, and can't be asked to grind another CV line at this point. Yep, that unfun to play now).

[Yaskaraxx]

1 hour ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Don't bother mentioning me around this guy. According to him I am one of the worst players in the game.

lol, no, no, i am always objective: i experienced you last 2 years of playing as one of the very best (brilliant) Carrier-players! Tribute goes to you, i am very honest here (always was and am, objective ways).

 

We only differ one 1x point regarding carriers: RTS-carriers stagnates further progressings, would not bring this game any further evolution enrichments to higher levels and I want carriers to be accessible for the masses(!!), same time getting, injecting far more vibrancy + activity + great visuals + sounds + less campings + less stationary gameplay into this great game. Yes, you are (and proved!) to be real brilliant with carriers, i know, but me, I want many thousands doing great with the carriers (or ok performing) with it, far lesser skill-gaps randoms, that i wanna see happening, that they should strive for. Cuz, doesn't matter how one looks at it: this game NEEDS ITS PLANES! (= vital, imho)...cheers, yaskara xx (= mental tribute)

 

 

[Verblonde]

2 hours ago, Yaskaraxx said:

I never ever understood why destroyers so afraid for carriers???...i mean, they can scout ya, but doing any real damage with Shokaku on a destroyer is almost impossible (ya would need at need 4x-plane-runs, will bring ya 7-8K dmg at most if ya are lucky)

One word: spotting.

 

Unless you have actively good AA, a CV will perma-spot you, allowing his mates to blow you out of the water; the damage the CV does to you directly is almost academic by comparison. The vast majority of DDs live and die by their stealth; remove that, and most are toast - *that* is the problem.

 

That said, if you know that, you can actively go hunting for planes, but it only works in a very small numbers of DDs, and not against a good CV driver.

[1MajorKoenig]

1 hour ago, asalonen said:

If anything, I would expect CV's to be nerfed across the tiers within a month or two. They are too strong. 

 

I didn't play the CV's in public test at all, so I started from zero when 0.8.0 was released. I had some initial struggles in the Hosho before I got my CV *hit together. However, I now have a win rate of 72,5 % in the tier 6's after 40 games. It doesn't feel like a fluke anymore, and if anything it might go up with a bit more practice. 

 

I'm a solid player, but just not that good. My division buddy is saying it's essentially the same story in tiers 8 and 10. We've always had one CV in the division since the release of 0.8.0 and have all seen win rates like never before.

 

Also, @El2aZeR's stats in Midway are absolutely ridiculous, in an environment that is likely more CV-hostile than ever before.

 

I'm not sure how exactly this should be done, but currently good CV players just seem too omni-potent. Aerial detection range could lowered, also possibly making it dependant on ship speed, to give DD's a better chance of sneaking around. Possibly rockets could be made less accurate so that especially hitting fast targets (the low-health DD) would be more difficult. Possibly all of these and then some. 

 

I don't personally mind the current state of affairs, since the CV's are fun to play, and winning is not only fun but also easier than ever before. But don't expect a CV buff if the game balance clearly needs a nerf.

 

Of course there are aces and even top aces. But that’s the same in each class. 

 

Juat because el2azer does very good doesn’t mean the class or ships of the class have to be OP.

 

It’s not easy to find some kind of balance with the given constraints (MM, manual attack vs RNG Defense, spotting, etc).

 

But at the moment my opinion isn’t that it’s found. I would actually like to see that conserving planes is rewarded and that it’s possible to do so 

[anonym_RGvUdEcxWWvD]

As a DD main, I confirm DD's are in a great spot, just need to change their play style. And before I forget, please buff Hakuryu. I'm tired of seeing only Midways around.

[ForlornSailor]

4 minutes ago, Zlaraki said:

As a DD main I confirm DD's are in a great spot,

 

You misspelled "Battleship main". Not that we couldnt tell, because only that way, your sentence makes sense.

 

 

[asalonen]

31 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

Of course there are aces and even top aces. But that’s the same in each class. 

 

Juat because el2azer does very good doesn’t mean the class or ships of the class have to be OP.

 

It’s not easy to find some kind of balance with the given constraints (MM, manual attack vs RNG Defense, spotting, etc).

This is all true. I brought up a particular player only because his performance seems to suggest that there's a serious balance problem.

 

Also, my division buddies and I just haven't been winning like this before. We're solid players but definitely not spectacular, and now with a reworked CV in the division we seem to average 70 % or so. Something feels off. 

 

I'm not sure how it should be fixed. I don't think the reworked CV's are too easy, but they seem to have excessive potential. I'm sure WG sees the numbers and acts accordingly, meaning no buffs. 

 

Finally, in my experience both lines share the same fundamental issue. IJN line is possibly more difficult to master because the AP bombs are trickier to use, but the huge potential is still there. 

[Beastofwar]

I did notice the Lexington seems  easier to get a good score with then the Shokaku. I recognise the somewhat exhausting effort needed to make them perform at all, compared to playing of other classes of ships.

 

The damage you do is generally  low ( only rarely RNG huge damage spikes with bombs ) and credits and XP seem not even to be related to this, but rather to the amount or mix of ribbons you gathered.

 

And i do not understand the fear of aircraft by DD either - at least not the damage aircraft themselves do - but i do understand that upon being spotted fleet (s)hellfire rains down on them.

 

I don't want CV buffed or nerfed. I can be happy with fine tuning where needed, the main problem that i encounter is too low damage and income potential in tier X with Shokaku or Lexington. Logic, as tier X CV belong there, not tier VIII.