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RamboCras

Zoning, does it work?

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Hi,

 

I am fighting with the zoning, even when I have a full AA spec'd Montana, if I have no other AA ships near, the first flight always comes through without loosing a plane (yes I know, not very realistic, but WG has dropped realism when schoolgirls became commanders and we had haloween & space camo's. With the consequence that the planes are now on my 50% side for their return run.

 

Are you guys also switching zones during the raids? I know on my Groz that pays off since the switch is very fast (5sec). I find it very annoying to do since often I am also in a battle, ducking evading whatever the planes dropped on me and meanwhile also not trying to give a broadside or ramming into something.

 

In that sense, I like the old Manual AA better click on a torpedo squad and usually shred them in my Montana or seriously disturb their drop (with full flack focus more realistic than everything surviving IMO).

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You mean sector reinforcement?

 

What is this zoning you speak about? Some sort of urban organizational system?

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As far as I can tell, sector re-enforcement only works well, if the enemy planes are attacking the ship next to you and keep within the sector while conducting it. If you are targeted, then you tend to get more plane kills using Def AA without any sector re-enforcement than with it, because then planes will spend a little longer time within the 100% effective area of your AA (both coming and going and sometimes also while returning). Leaving both sectors to 100% also allows your ship to maneuver more radically to avoid / minimize hits without compromising overall AA effectiveness so much. :cap_hmm:

'

My best score consistently using Manual AA 4-point skill (not worth the skill point cost, I must say) and sector re-enforcement in an Atlanta was 31 plane kills in 1 game, while the best I could get without using any and just suicidally sticking my nose in middle of air raids was 56, so based on that experience I'd be inclined to say that it is a fairly pointless and situational practice at the moment because what you gain on one side, you lose on the other by equal measure so the net effect is +-1=0 under most circustances. :Smile_sceptic:

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28 minutes ago, RamboCras said:

Hi,

 

I am fighting with the zoning, even when I have a full AA spec'd Montana, if I have no other AA ships near, the first flight always comes through without loosing a plane (yes I know, not very realistic, but WG has dropped realism when schoolgirls became commanders and we had haloween & space camo's. With the consequence that the planes are now on my 50% side for their return run.

 

Are you guys also switching zones during the raids? I know on my Groz that pays off since the switch is very fast (5sec). I find it very annoying to do since often I am also in a battle, ducking evading whatever the planes dropped on me and meanwhile also not trying to give a broadside or ramming into something.

 

In that sense, I like the old Manual AA better click on a torpedo squad and usually shred them in my Montana or seriously disturb their drop (with full flack focus more realistic than everything surviving IMO).

Realisticly ships did not shoot down a lot of planes. There is a reason planes were/are strong vs ships.

 

Hint: Change the sector before the planes fly over your ship. With perfect timing your sector change happens the moment the planes enter the other sector.

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Vor 1 Stunde, RamboCras sagte:

if I have no other AA ships near, the first flight always comes through without loosing a plane

Well, if you shoot down all planes on your own before the first drop  whats the point in playing a CV then?

Planes have HP like your Ship. It needs time to sink your ship, so it needs time for planes to enter a critical amount of HP and starting to shoot them down.

 

Vor 56 Minuten, ColonelPete sagte:

Hint: Change the sector before the planes fly over your ship. With perfect timing your sector change happens the moment the planes enter the other sector.

This. You need to start switching 12 seconds before the planes are above your BB.  The reinforced sector will stay at 125% until the moment it switches to the other side.

Personally I'm not switching sector, I remove sector reinforcement when the first wave attacks. During the following attacks you have so much to do to dodge bombs, torps and incoming fire that a correct sector switch timing is difficult in a BB.

 

Last but not least: remember it only works for the continuous AA - not the FLAK. Some ships (like IJN BB) get very little absolut bonus DPS from sector reinforcements cause they have strong flak but weak DPS.

 

And BTW: the malus on the weak side make the manual sector skill a bad 4 point skill in my opinion. Skills shouldn't be designed like that. Especially for BBs with the long switching time it's difficult to use.

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It's most efficent when you switch sides 5-10 secounds before the planes fly over your head to the other side.

If you don't want to bother switching sector reinforcement just leave it at 100/100.

It's just a way to use some skill to get the most out of your AAA.

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1 hour ago, Miessa3 said:

It's most efficent when you switch sides 5-10 secounds before the planes fly over your head to the other side.

If you don't want to bother switching sector reinforcement just leave it at 100/100.

It's just a way to use some skill to get the most out of your AAA.

Well I will probably try some time without changing unless it is extremely obvius, my AA kills have been somewhat strange someytimes - I got focused by a enemy Saipan and managed to down 2 planes in several waves together - even if he probably was a very good player that is abysmal result before I was sunk (focused by other ships also but nevertheless it was several waves ) but another game same day I killed 15 or so In Kutuzov without effort or own damage to planes.

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First strike always goes through unless enemy CV is dumb enough to fly through flak. To deny a first strike via DPS only you need something ridiculous like 3 full AA Minos right next to each other.

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I have the impression for long range attacks ( the heavy AA guns ) it does work and is quite dangerous when it is increased in power in that sector. Because of that it is most dangerous for aproaching enemies that come from max AA range ofcourse. I think it was intended that way, as to discourage attacking that target.

 

When the aircraft are inside middle/short range "bubble" or "aura" i doubt is does very much, it is continuous damage there anyway, not frightning huge damage peaks  and aircraft fly in and out of the zone halves continuously.

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1 hour ago, Gnirf said:

Well I will probably try some time without changing unless it is extremely obvius, my AA kills have been somewhat strange someytimes - I got focused by a enemy Saipan and managed to down 2 planes in several waves together - even if he probably was a very good player that is abysmal result before I was sunk (focused by other ships also but nevertheless it was several waves ) but another game same day I killed 15 or so In Kutuzov without effort or own damage to planes.

was the cv in the game with the kutusov also a saipan?

Don't forget that Saipan gets uptiered (and less) Tier X planes which are very hard to kill as a premiumship gimmick.

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yes i know but still ...have expected a few more but I might just have got the really bad RNG stick. No it was a another T8 CV but do not remember which of Lex or Shokaku

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On 2/14/2019 at 12:24 PM, Skurios_Volleys_Fan said:

Well, if you shoot down all planes on your own before the first drop  whats the point in playing a CV then?

Planes have HP like your Ship. It needs time to sink your ship, so it needs time for planes to enter a critical amount of HP and starting to shoot them down.

Eh yes... damage seems to spread evenly over the flight... not very realistic, there must be one guy on a BB that gets a decisive hit on a plane, like in the engine or damaging a wing???

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On 2/14/2019 at 6:48 PM, Gnirf said:

Well I will probably try some time without changing unless it is extremely obvius, my AA kills have been somewhat strange someytimes - I got focused by a enemy Saipan and managed to down 2 planes in several waves together - even if he probably was a very good player that is abysmal result before I was sunk (focused by other ships also but nevertheless it was several waves ) but another game same day I killed 15 or so In Kutuzov without effort or own damage to planes.

 I have the same thing but with the same ship, One game I did 40+ planes in my Montana, next game I am focussed 3 times by enemy planes (full squads and I shoot down 2. It's bizarre. You don't know if you can trust your own ships defensives. Had the same result in my Grozovoi, one game it's a plane killer, the next hardly a dent...

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39 minutes ago, RamboCras said:

Eh yes... damage seems to spread evenly over the flight... not very realistic, there must be one guy on a BB that gets a decisive hit on a plane, like in the engine or damaging a wing???

Well, it's not meant to be realistic, gameplay trumps realism every time. That's why we get magic DCP button on all ships except CVs that have a magic DCP button that presses itself whether you want it or not :Smile-_tongue:

 

35 minutes ago, RamboCras said:

I have the same thing but with the same ship, One game I did 40+ planes in my Montana, next game I am focussed 3 times by enemy planes (full squads and I shoot down 2. It's bizarre. You don't know if you can trust your own ships defensives. Had the same result in my Grozovoi, one game it's a plane killer, the next hardly a dent...

Well, it depends on a couple factors:

 - how good the enemy CV player is (dodging flak)

 - how conservative with his planes the CV player is (how fast he is to pull out)

 - what CV the CV player plays (t8 CV planes are much more fragile, IJN TBs strike only 2 at a time making the "escape after strike" phase much more lethal to them)

 - how badly battered your AA is when the planes come

 - if there are some other ships with potentially stronger AA, giving them a better chance of being the ones to score the kills

 

The important thing about the first two points is that currently the effects of your AA don't just come down to "how many planes died, how many of them before the drop". Let's say that the enemy Hakuryu attack you with TBs, drops two torps on you and then escapes with the rest of the squadron (or maybe comes once again after burning the plane heal if it was off CD) - chances are that you'll find yourself with very few plane kills over the match even if he goes after you like this many times. But it doesn't mean that your AA had no effect - it made the enemy perform a very inefficient attack pattern with a lot of flying between his hull and you. Because he was too scared to perform a more intense attack since that would mean much greater losses - instead he opted for the "safe" option, getting him an effective DPM comparable to a Zao with four times the normal reload on his main battery.

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On 2/14/2019 at 11:08 AM, ColonelPete said:

Realisticly ships did not shoot down a lot of planes. There is a reason planes were/are strong vs ships.

 

Hint: Change the sector before the planes fly over your ship. With perfect timing your sector change happens the moment the planes enter the other sector.

realistically no cv ever have unlimited planes, that.s is a reason torpedo drops against an AA cruiser was an suicide mission back on ww2. Realism was never the main aspect of this game,

and not even the devs dare to state that.

When I see peoples like you talking about "realism" here, forgetting / ignoring its just an arcade video-game and by definition NOT a SIM (simulator) ,  I realize are many dreamers posting here...

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1 hour ago, SEN_SEN_Channel_Portugue said:

realistically no cv ever have unlimited planes, that.s is a reason torpedo drops against an AA cruiser was an suicide mission back on ww2. Realism was never the main aspect of this game,

and not even the devs dare to state that.

When I see peoples like you talking about "realism" here, forgetting / ignoring its just an arcade video-game and by definition NOT a SIM (simulator) ,  I realize are many dreamers posting here...

You REALLY need to check what people are responding to :Smile_facepalm:

Hint: it was not ColonelPete who brought up realism. He was retorting to the OP who did.

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On 2/18/2019 at 5:39 AM, eliastion said:

You REALLY need to check what people are responding to :Smile_facepalm:

Hint: it was not ColonelPete who brought up realism. He was retorting to the OP who did.

On his defence, I think I did say that the fact that the left side of the ship is stronger the right (or vice versa) is a bit silly. It's like crewmen are running from left to right and back LOL. 

I just did 30 planes kills in my Kidd, something never is possible in a 'regular' cruiser, even though a cruiser has a LOT more AA guns. I think, due to the fast way you can switch zones, DDs benefit the most. I notice in my Groz. as well. DDs switch so fast, the planes are always on the 150% side. If you use zoning well, DDs have an extra AA buff. And on ships like Groz, Kidd, with heals and AA consumable, they are incredibly effective against planes.

 

I used to use my Montana to protected DDs and other ships (was my only AA specked ship), now it's my Grozovoi or Kidd. That is weird, it's absolutely not the role of a DD to support AA to capital ships.

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2 minutes ago, RamboCras said:

On his defence, I think I did say that the fact that the left side of the ship is stronger the right (or vice versa) is a bit silly. It's like crewmen are running from left to right and back LOL.

Actually, it's not silly at all on the conceptual level - at least on the ships that get the highest reinforcement values. Have you noticed that on DDs quite a lot of armament is mounted in a way that it can be turned to either side? For some DDs main batteries (or rather their invisible phantom clones that can shoot without regard for what the guns are doing) count as AA as well - and I'm pretty sure that you'll agree that when you're sailing a DD, one side of your ship is usually heavier armed than the other (as in: ALL your guns point one way and it takes time to switch to the other side), right?

 

Reinforcement is just that. "Point whatever you have that can shoot up in that direction" - just very simplified, to fit into the abstract nature of AA we got implemented in the game (main battery AA phantoms for dual-purpose guns and stuff). Btw, when you think about it that way, you can also easily explain why bigger ships like BBs have much lower reinforcement values than DDs: a much larger % of their AA is in mounts situated on either side of their superstructure, making prioritizing one side much less efficient (as in: there are a lot of mounts that physically can't be pointed to the other side because parts of the ship get in the way).

 

Additionally, you could also include minor factors like prioritizing the cooling and smooth ammo delivery to the more relevant (as in, facing the priority sector) mounts at the expense of the other side.

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I have started to drop Torps or Bombs right at the start of a flight if I get + 2 Tiers in MM. I'll never manage to make that 3rd attack so at least I ensure I have planes on my CV.

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On ‎2‎/‎19‎/‎2019 at 11:13 AM, eliastion said:

Actually, it's not silly at all on the conceptual level - at least on the ships that get the highest reinforcement values. Have you noticed that on DDs quite a lot of armament is mounted in a way that it can be turned to either side? For some DDs main batteries (or rather their invisible phantom clones that can shoot without regard for what the guns are doing) count as AA as well - and I'm pretty sure that you'll agree that when you're sailing a DD, one side of your ship is usually heavier armed than the other (as in: ALL your guns point one way and it takes time to switch to the other side), right?

I agree with you... that's the advantage of a ship with no tower. But again, where a DD can point X guns, even with only 1 side, a BB can point between 3-6 times as many guns. So in concept you are right, but in numbers I seriously doubt it.

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