Suggestion: Reconnaissance aircraft for CV

[Pikkozoikum]

TL;DR or "short version"

---

• Strike planes (Attack plane, TB, DB) losing the ability to spot for teammates, only minimap spotting.
• Reconnaissance aircraft is the only plane type, which can spot
• Reconnaissance aircraft has a "special attack", where the plane can observe other ships and decreases the max. dispersion for teammates.
  • The reconnaissance aircraft adds 50% of the damage done to an observed target caused by teammates to the CVs damage counter, while observing a target.
  • The Observation run could also reveal information about the target like the current speed.
• Reconnaissance aircraft are single planes with small HP pool. DDs (counter) can handle them easily.
• CVs can't strike and spot the DD and other ships. Only spot or strike.
• Reconnaissance aircraft has special spotter consumables.

 

 

 

Table of content

---

• Introduction
• Reconnaissance aircraft for Hakuryu
• Possible consumables
• Observation flight (attack run)
• Gameplay
• Bonus: Reconnaissance aircraft on second branch CV (Support CVs?)

 

 

Introduction

---

Many people complain about perma spotting. I'm more neutral about that, but what I really don't like: At the begin of a match every ship is bunched up and attack there would only cost many strike planes. So generally it's more about to scout with the strike squad. But only scouting is kinda boring and weird with strike planes. Thus I would prefer, if there would be a plane type made for this role, which would also solve the "perma spotting" issue.
My idea is to add reconnaissance aircraft for CVs as a 4th option. The strike planes would lose the ability to spot for other teammates and would be only possible to spot for themself (they could scout on the minimap only), while the reconnaissance aircraft would be able to spot for the team.
The reconnaissance aircraft would also have an "attack run" and I will call it observation flight (tell me, if you have a better name for that) and it works like the a normal attack run with left mouse button.

 

Reconnaissance aircraft for Hakuryu

---

Aircraft type: C6N Saiun
Hit points: 1257
Max. speed: 241 Knots (with boost)
Squad size: 1
Flight deck reload: 182 Sek.
Concealment: 7.5 km
Flight deck size: 2

 

Possible consumables (not all, just a collection of ideas)

---

 

Crewman: Spotter I (alternative name: Binoculars I)
Increases the concealment to sky of enemy ship for the reconnaissance aircraft by 20%. Also the reconnaissance aircraft is able to spot the last known position of firing ships (even smoke firing ships).
Duration of the consumable: 30 seconds
Cooldown: 80 seconds
Charges: 3

Crewman: Gunner I
Reduces the damage taken from fighters by 75% and the rear gunner starts to shot at planes behind the reconnaissance aircraft. (Kills ~1 plane)
Duration of the consumable: 10 seconds
Cooldown: 80 seconds
Charges: 3

Patrol flight I
The reconnaissance aircraft starts to patrol in an area (Like the fighter consumable). The player loses control of the reconnaissance aircraft and can return to the CV with the 'F' key.
Duration of the consumable: 30 seconds
Cooldown: 120 seconds
Charges: 3

 

External fuel tank I

Using Engine boost or air breaks won't cost any energy, but the aircraft takes 33% more damage, while it lasts.

Duration of the consumable: 20 seconds
Cooldown: 80 seconds
Charges: 3

 

Observation flight (attack run)

---

The Observation flight works like the attack run of an attack plane or torpedo plane. But instead of attacking a target, they go into an observation mode - a bit like the periscope of the submarines at the Halloween event. Thus the recon aircraft observes a target with binoculars and is able to mark a target for the team. If the enemy ship is targeted/marked by the reconnaissance aircraft (IJN) the max. dispersion is reduced by 20% for team mates and 25%, if it's an USN reconnaissance aircraft.

Additionally the damage done by team mates while observing the target will be added to 50% to the CVs damage counter as well. So the CV gains base exp for being a spotter only and gives team support by reducing the max. dispersion.

As a userfriendly help, there are two indicators for the teammates. First the observed/targeted/marked enemy will get a graphic indicator, that the teammates can see it in-game. The other indicator is a chat message similar to the chat messages of using a radar. Something like "The reconnaissance aircraft revealed a weak target on D4. Focus fire!"

Spoiler

Gameplay

---

In randoms and especially in clan battles the CV would have a better gameplay in the first minutes. The CV starts a reconnaissance aircraft to spot the enemies movements and if there is a good target, he will aim for that ship, so the teammates can shoot at it. The early spotting would be way more fun and not only flying around and do nothing. It would be more engaging, if the spotting is more active, less passive.
The dds won't have much trouble with the reconnaissance aircraft, because there is only one with low hp, thus it will be shot down pretty fast and the CV would try to avoide DDs. If the CV decides to start a strike squad against a DD, then he won't spot the DD for his teammates and he would have to deal with the DD alone, thus the DD can focus on dodging the CVs aircrafts The USN are considered to have a better reconnaissance aircraft, because the IJN have long range torps, which can be used out of the AA range, this shall give the Midway more value and make her to a good alternative choice.

 

 

 

Bonus: Reconnaissance aircraft on second branch CV (Support CVs?)

---

We know, that there will be a second branch in the future and Wargaming mentioned some ideas of Support-CV. The reconnaissance aircraft could be also implemented on those CV but a stronger variant.

The reconnaissance aircraft on Support-CVs are in a squad of 3, or 6 planes and could also carry bombs for example. The Support-CV would be a better and way more effective spotter than the Strike-CV

 

Actually, my reconnaissance aircraft idea would solve the alternative line.

 

The Strike CVs would have:

• Attack aircrafts
• Torpedo bombers
• Dive bombers
• Single reconnaissance aircrafts

 

The Support CVs would be still have strike potential, but more focused on the spotting mechanic

 

So Support CVs would have:

• Reconnaissance aircrafts in squads with HE-bombs
• Torpedo bombers
• AP-dive bombers (USN) / HE-dive bombers (IJN)
• weak attack planes (Kaga sytle)

[Culiacan_Mexico]

I think the WG Senior Game Designer (Balancing) concluded it would be too difficult.  Although he may not have understood the question as he looked confused.

[Pikkozoikum]

1 minute ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

I think the WG Senior Game Designer (Balancing) concluded it would be too difficult.  Although he may not have understood the question as he looked confused.

Could you link that, where he mentioned that?
Also I don't see there any balancing issues, actually I think it would become a bit more like normal battles without a CV.

Especially the focus for surface ship would be better: If there is an Strike squad, the strike force won't spot, so the ship can fully focus on the strike planes. If there is a spotter plane, he only have to focus on the enemy ships

[principat121]

Why so complicated:

 

Plane spotting beyond a certain range (lets say 3-4km) should be a consumable for all planes.

[Culiacan_Mexico]

1 minute ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Could you link that, where he mentioned that?
Also I don't see there any balancing issues, actually I think it would become a bit more like normal battles without a CV.

Especially the focus for surface ship would be better: If there is an Strike squad, the strike force won't spot, so the ship can fully focus on the strike planes. If there is a spotter plane, he only have to focus on the enemy ships

I believe he said it during the Special Balance Q&A Stream.

 

Just to note: I like your idea.

[Pikkozoikum]

11 minutes ago, principat121 said:

Why so complicated:

 

Plane spotting beyond a certain range (lets say 3-4km) should be a consumable for all planes.

It's not about complexity. It's about having fun with spotting. Some CV player always saying that they lost the "support" role. Adding a reconnaissance aircraft would add a support role and also allows way more teamplay

 

11 minutes ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

I believe he said it during the Special Balance Q&A Stream.

 

Just to note: I like your idea.

Thank you :)

But you don't know, when he said that, at which minute or hour?

[Griva]

Not sure if this is good solution but something have to be done.

I don't know yet what is better but there must be some spotting nerf like DDs visible from 1km max or as you said things are spoted on minimap only, if planes see it.

Anyway I still think this can't be balanced well becuase idea of CV itself is just broken for healthy gameplay.

[Pikkozoikum]

1 minute ago, Griva said:

Not sure if this is good solution but something have to be done.

I don't know yet what is better but there must be some spotting nerf like DDs visible from 1km max or as you said things are spoted on minimap only, if planes see it.

Anyway I still think this can't be balanced well becuase idea of CV itself is just broken for healthy gameplay.

My idea adresses that issue.

As described, reconnaissance aircraft are single planes, not squads and only have less than 2k hp. Every DD can deal with that in a few seconds.

[Culiacan_Mexico]

2 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

It's not about complexity. It's about having fun with spotting. Some CV player always saying that they lost the "support" role. Adding a reconnaissance aircraft would add a support role and also allows way more teamplay

 

Thank you :)

But you don't know, when he said that, at which minute or hour?

I do not, but I am listening again... when I hear his comments on this question I will post it here.   

[Pikkozoikum]

5 minutes ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

I do not, but I am listening again... when I hear his comments on this question I will post it here.   

Cool, thanks, but hope you don't listen it just for me? That's not worth it :D

[Culiacan_Mexico]

58 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Cool, thanks, but hope you don't listen it just for me? That's not worth it :D

You are so mean to me... forcing me to find it. 

 

 

1:26:20

 

 

Just to note: I believe it was your question.

 

 

I want to listen again to the whole Balance Stream anyway.  

[Pikkozoikum]

5 minutes ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

You are so mean to me... forcing me to find it. 

 

 

1:26:20 

 

 

 

I want to listen again to the whole Balance Stream anyway.  

Oh, nice, didn't noticed, that they got my question :D

But well, couldn't asked the question short but detailed, guess that's why it was too complicated.  That's why wrote this thread to explain it.

 

Thanks for the time stamp :)

 

[Culiacan_Mexico]

3 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Oh, nice, didn't noticed, that they got my question :D

But well, couldn't asked the question short but detailed, guess that's why it was too complicated.  That's why wrote this thread to explain it.

 

Thanks for the time stamp :)

 

You are welcome!

[Pikkozoikum]

I was thinking about the oberservaton run (attack run of the recon aircraft). Besude giving the bonus on dispersion, it could also give additional base exp for the CV, if a mate deals damage to the target. Or to make it simpler: 50% of the damage dealt to a target by team mates could be added to the total damage counter of the CV as well. If a team mates attack an observed target and deals 20k damage, then the CV would gain 10k damage on his account. This would give the CV support but also "damage", while playing a non-combat plane.

[Pikkozoikum]

Just wanna add, why I think this is a good idea

 

1. It becomes more like the old gameplay

---

Guess many people prefer the gameplay without a CV. It's true, that the CV changes the Meta, especially for DDs and I assume that many DDs prefer the gameplay without CVs. With the recon aircraft the gameplay would be more like the gameplay without a CV, because only the recon aircraft could spot the DDs for the Team, but the recon aircrafts are so squishy, that they won't be able to spot them for a long time, thus the recon aircraft is used for spotting cruisers and battleships. Alternative the CV could attack the DD with strike planes, but then there would be no spotting for the team and the DD can fully concentrate on dodging the attacks of the CV, since only the CV could see the DD:

 

2. Spotting will be more fun for the CV player

---

When I have to spot for my team, because I can't attack anything, or when I played the Test-CB, the spotting feels kinda impactless or less useful or even boring. If there would be a recon aircraft with special features for spotting and special reward-features, it would feel better and more fun for the CV player.

 

 

3. More support

---

I was reading often, that the reworked CV lacks in support. With the recon aircraft he would gain a complete new dimension of supporting. That aircraft type would not only spot, also improving the focus on a target. That would reward teamplay a lot more and also the CV would get more rewarded by spotting and supporting the team.

 

[You_Overextended]

Part of my gripe with playing CV right now is that the only thing I really can do to benefit my team is wreck the enemy team and zone them out as much as I can (i.e., force a broadside on a BB with my torps, DB a DD out of a cap, start some fires with rockets that the ship might damage con, etc.). There's very little I can do as far as support is concerned. "CV pls spot" is a constant message in chat. If I send my planes off to spot something, I am missing out on the opportunity to catch a Yamato that's sniping out some of our valuable ships, and sending the planes to dig out ships that will damage them almost immediately after (or sometimes even before) being spotted, making me have to focus on zooming away from the AA bubble and hopefully recover most of my squad.

Losing a plane or two just so that my teammates can see where the enemy is and, naturally, not shooting their guns doesn't offer me much incentive to take on a very active scouting role. This is not me writing a "woe is me" story about CV gameplay, though. The little experience I have in the class offered me a great perspective that I hope to expand on in the future, but one must understand why CVs are not the most god-tier spotters :))

Also, using the fighter consumable is almost useless unless the enemy CV lurks around the patrol area long enough (which is unlikely if they know how to find the minimap =)) ), so I just use them so teammates don't rant about lack of CV support and then move on to actually do something useful.

 

TL;DR: When playing CV I'd like to be able to do more for my teams. But the current dynamics kind of force me to be selfish. In fact, my low average damage on CV comes from listening to chat a lot, something I'm working on stopping because I have pretty amazing matches when I don't =))

[Zen71_sniper]

On 2/12/2019 at 9:57 PM, Griva said:

Not sure if this is good solution but something have to be done.

I don't know yet what is better but there must be some spotting nerf like DDs visible from 1km max or as you said things are spoted on minimap only, if planes see it.

Anyway I still think this can't be balanced well becuase idea of CV itself is just broken for healthy gameplay.

My feelings too. They are pilling gimmicks on top of gimmicks to balance what is fundamentally unbalancable game mechanic. 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

I would never use it ever and just continue on with the routine. Rockets to DBs. I don't care at all if my team shoots at the targets i spot. I get the job done myself.

 

Also you will not be able to nerf the spotting for the bombers since all ships would stealth AA then which is beyond stupid.

Every second in that controllable spotter plane would be a wasted second.

[You_Overextended]

19 minutes ago, Zuihou25 said:

I would never use it ever and just continue on with the routine. Rockets to DBs. I don't care at all if my team shoots at the targets i spot. I get the job done myself.

 

Also you will not be able to nerf the spotting for the bombers since all ships would stealth AA then which is beyond stupid.

Every second in that controllable spotter plane would be a wasted second.

A little harsh, but I agree with this to a large extent. A massive amount of the spotting you do in CV is pretty meh anyway because you can never guarantee that your team will capitalize on the intel. Meanwhile, you will, if you know what you're doing. Chances are you're going to be stuck wagering on a flank that will just broadside to the majority of the enemy team (or, in other cases, go AFK or just press W and leave the ship alone, YOLO-ing forward; WG should address that, btw) and you are better off trying to make up for your team's losses than play a role your team doesn't have the ability to take advantage of.

[Armorin]

It was the spotting abilities of CV's which lead to the surface ship players getting their pitch forks out and the 0.8.0.3 air detection range drastic changes. Unless the reconnaissance aircraft can be counter played, people will get their pitch forks out again. Well, maybe some people never put their pitch forks away.

[Beastofwar]

Short answer : The successive nerfs made this suggestion obsolete. At higher tiers with heavier weapons you can no longer attack at will upon spotting, and more or less depend on other near ships continuous spotting to be able to attack an enemy DD.

 

Long answer : it would probably not change anything, but it could make it even worse. If you spot the enemy with a recon aircraft that cannot attack itself, but you can keep them spotted for a long time - for which you get rewarded with XP and credits - you will be just as hated as if you attacked yourself with rockets,bombs or torpedo's.

 

Correction : probably more hated as you would probably not fly in the center of their AA (aura) as rocket fighters or other bombers eventually do so AA can kill them, so they would feel more powerless to stop you, or are just ineffective at all.

 

DD hate being spotted, the rockets were never the real problem, if you look in the details result screen as DD player what killed you, the bulk of your damage was always incoming fire from enemy ships upon being spotted.

 

Introduction of Recon aircraft litteraly need the return of air supriority fighters as a counter, as not all ships have ship launched fighters to keep it away.

 

Then there is the problem what to do if only CV's remain in a match.....happens with some regularity. If attack aircraft cannot see anything, and no other allied ships remain to spot they cannot fight anymore. Other then that is is un-doable to fly around not seeying what is shooting AA at you in attack aircraft.....invisible AA trap cruiser were just corrected because of that !

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Yedwy]

Too complicated for playerbase, most only start discovering wasd after their 5 th freexped t10 line

[Namuras]

So, a low HP single planes with no improved spotting range (to stay out of AA) that can be easily swatted by a DD? What good is that going to do?

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 6 Minuten, Namuras sagte:

So, a low HP single planes with no improved spotting range (to stay out of AA) that can be easily swatted by a DD? What good is that going to do?

It's just people with wild ideas. He will point to the conumeable you could use which increases air detection of all ships by 20%, it changed the DD spotting from 2.6 to 3.1, the genius forgot that AA range is 6km.

 

I swear all these people with these wild ideas for fixes just need to play more CV instead of dreaming.

 

The screenshot shows that spotting is no good in randoms anyways.

It's a defeat obviously

[anonym_cwVecOS6ecVy]

I highly believe this rather complex system would move CVs too far from the "Send & Strike" action concept WG wanted to introduce.

Furthermore, it would - most likely - counter the upcoming concept of support CV lines, which might come up with adapted spotting abilities, smoke, anti sub marine squadrons or the like.