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RamboCras

impact bad CV player versus good CV player changed?

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Hi,

 

There is a lot of talk about the new CV update which all started with bad CV players having a big impact on the game vs normal to good CV players. My question is, has that really changed?

I have had several games where one CV players spotted, dropped his defensive fighters correct, held an eye on the chat for help requests, find/kept DDs spotted, helped the weak flank, punished split of BBs , forced ships to turn and expose their weak sides. Where the other CV just did 'it's' thing.

 

And maybe the impact by a CV because of the patch is a little less but certainly not enough. A good CV player has MUCH more impact on the game vs a bad CV player and still has MUCH more impact on the outcome of a game than a bad/good DD-CC-BB player.

To accommodate this patch we had to accept:

- ridiculous spotting (within 1,5 min everyone is spotted)

- respec'ing captains

- respec'ing ships

- if you CV targets you, attacks every 30 seconds

- silly amount of catapult fighters

- completely different Meta of the game

- forced huddling of the ships just to be safe from the CVs

- DD play no longer fun

- short range ships can't hide - position themselves

- Multiple CV games (then it's just a shooting arcade)

- planes that can't be shot down on the first run because damage spread out fairly evenly

- the silly F key

- Zoning (seriously? people or people with machine guns running from side to side on a ship? Really?)

 

So why WG did the patch, is still an issue. The impact is huge. You can release 10 more patches but every patch will bring its own issues (noticed that now hardly anyone plays the Hakuyu?). The base idea (which was good) turned out to be solved bad (in my opinion).

 

My suggestion:

1st role back the software

2nd allow carriers only to advance to the next tier once they have met certain criteria (Like win rate, av. damage, reported x times for bad play then y games no CV, or a combination of these things). This way more skilled players will come up the ladder of the carriers and you will not get a player like me (who got his tier X carrier with gold and free XP) playing high tiers.

 

Ps. For anyone reading this to the end, I NEVER play my Hakuryu or Midway other than Coop for some mission criteria because I suck at carriers and know it :)))

 

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In short - no. Good players still pumping 180k av dmg/70%+ WR in Midway (even in this current beta stage where CV's kinda heavily nerfed) while not so good ones 50-70k/47-50% WR.

If you ignore damage difference then kinda yes-there is no more such an air dominance for one player because you can't really interact with enemy CV much.

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1 hour ago, RamboCras said:

has that really changed?

Yes. Now when bad CVs just run into flak and die before they even have a chance to attempt a drop good CVs will dominate over them even more

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Yes, it changed. The problem was that good players knew the advantage of mobility, permaradaring and air superiority.

The updates nerfed all that. Only one squadron, no AS fighters, strong AA.

 

Some current problems are that rocket planes are very effective against alot of DDs, some ship's AA is too strong(Minotaur are basically suicide missions), the potential threat of carriers in the endgame(assassinatig lone ships, being ineffective against grouping). While players like to complain about CVs not loosing planes, it really hurts to loose them(plane restoration is very slow).

 

MfG Boom

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Hi all,

 

1 hour ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Yes. Now when bad CVs just run into flak and die before they even have a chance to attempt a drop good CVs will dominate over them even more

 

During the weekend I had "pleasure" to have one Tier VIII USN CV in my team - almost 150 battles already played in new (post v0.8.x) CV but just 10K average damage, 0.1 kills per game and 30% WinRate... he died within first few minutes (to enemy "Asashio" - because he never ever spotted for us)...

 

We, of course, lost expressly without spotting and against unicum enemy CV...

 

 

Leo "Apollo11"

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Lets face it, the goal of the rework was never to address the skill gap nor any of the other problems of CV play as the fundamental concept inherently prevents that.

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4 minutes ago, Leo_Apollo11 said:

Hi all,

 

During the weekend I had "pleasure" to have one Tier VIII USN CV in my team - almost 150 battles already played in new (post v0.8.x) CV but just 10K average damage, 0.1 kills per game and 30% WinRate... he died within first few minutes (to enemy "Asashio" - because he never ever spotted for us)...

 

We, of course, lost expressly without spotting and against unicum enemy CV...

 

 

Leo "Apollo11"

 

I feel like this could be used as a script for a horror movie

 

1509863619338.png

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6 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Lets face it, the goal of the rework was never to address the skill gap nor any of the other problems of CV play as the fundamental concept inherently prevents that.

Coughconsolescough :Smile_trollface:

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We can no longer completely shut down a bad CV player as there is zero interaction between CVs as the summoned fighters do  absolutely nothing. Also the sudden spike in cvs in games has forced people to learn how to negate cvs dropping them which people never seemed to bother to learn with RTS and just kept whining that cvs were unfair. So yes it has addressed the skill gap in the sense that a good cv player has less impact if facing a bad player but the real question is should it? No. RTS CVs rewarded skill whereas the rework rewards... Well not much really but the only skill involved is wiggling to avoid flak bubbles which kill your planes on the return anyway when you can't control them. 

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56 minutes ago, Leo_Apollo11 said:

Hi all,

 

 

During the weekend I had "pleasure" to have one Tier VIII USN CV in my team - almost 150 battles already played in new (post v0.8.x) CV but just 10K average damage, 0.1 kills per game and 30% WinRate... he died within first few minutes (to enemy "Asashio" - because he never ever spotted for us)...

 

We, of course, lost expressly without spotting and against unicum enemy CV...

 

 

Leo "Apollo11"

I guess "Working as intended" :Smile_trollface:

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30 minutes ago, Mr_Snoww said:

We can no longer completely shut down a bad CV player as there is zero interaction between CVs as the summoned fighters do  absolutely nothing.

 

Thats true. But also the need for that decreased (against bad players). They kill themself now.

Here is the thing: Players are not only super bad OR super good. It might be news to some people, but there is a group that is really average and this group always has been there. These players DID help you with fighters, when you were permaspotted in your DD by the opponent CV, f.e. This doesnt exist anymore. So now, when you face a CV, that knows "aaah I better keep the DD spotted" - you are effed. And thats why, folks, RTS CVs were better. Because before, that CV permaspotting you got harrassed from your friendly CV and/or had a lot of other things to do with his other squads, that kept him busy. Now he can focus 100% on one thing.

 

34 minutes ago, Mr_Snoww said:

Also the sudden spike in cvs in games has forced people to learn how to negate cvs dropping them which people never seemed to bother to learn with RTS and just kept whining that cvs were unfair.

 

One of the things, I cant get my head around. Before, the playerbase didnt adjust to a CV in game. Rush the cap, run in all directions, cry. That was the usualy behavoir. Even you ASKED them "stay together, there is a CV in the game, dont rush alone". no reaction. Now people blobb up into one mass and never leave the spawn area - even when there is no CV in the game. Its ridiculous.

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30 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

These players DID help you with fighters, when you were permaspotted in your DD by the opponent CV, f.e. This doesnt exist anymore. So now, when you face a CV, that knows "aaah I better keep the DD spotted" - you are effed. And thats why, folks, RTS CVs were better. Because before, that CV permaspotting you got harrassed from your friendly CV and/or had a lot of other things to do with his other squads, that kept him busy. Now he can focus 100% on one thing.

 

This so much.

Many DDs didn't even know how they got aided by me / allied CV by keeping the enemy planes busy (chasing / leading the enemy planes to certain parts of the map), preventing them from spotting (in the RTS system).

You could clear a cap, in return the enemy CV could clear another. You could attack, and the next attack would follow in a couple of minutes; this means enemy ships have some time to regain control of the area (maybe an AA ship to enforce the area - a couple of minutes is plenty of time to relocate).

Now .. the attack happens, and the next attack less than a minute later .. no time to cap, little time to escape.

 

Experienced it in my Grozovoi when targeted by a Midway.

Full AA (test build), the first attack wave got destroyed by my Def AA + the long range AA of Moskva (div mate) - I took some 3k-4k damage from the first rocket strike.

Second attack wave came and my Def AA was on cooldown, but I was close enough to my Moskva (or so I thought); I was forced to smoke up after losing nearly half my hitpoints.

Third attack came and my Def AA was still on cooldown, my Moskva could still provide AA support, but 2 rocket strikes sank me.

 

My biggest mistake that battle? Trying to do my "job" as a DD.

I should've stayed in the back, where the majority of the ships were; out of range for my guns and out of range for my torps (BBs will be happy).

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DD are playing their own game too, instead of asking help of CV or AA cruisers. Both would be able to help cap by sinking the enemy DD(s) that try to cap there too, or give air cover against enemy fighters.

 

But no, DD must not be able to be spotted ( radar and hydro should be nerfed or removed aswell remember ) do everything alone and be strong enough to need no help.....

 

So that is not a CV problem. Thats a DD player attitude failure. Or WGs one that they allowed DD to think this is a valid way of playing.

 

But.....

 

- am i a bad CV player if i get slaughtered in a tier 8 CV at Tier X ?

- am i a good player if i can slaughter enemies in an tier 8 CV in a tier 8 match ?

 

Because this seems to be the thing at hand......not solved by any hotfix at all......

 

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1 hour ago, Mr_Snoww said:

We can no longer completely shut down a bad CV player

The bad player now shuts down himself by flying straight into the flak :Smile_trollface:

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4 hours ago, Sugertukas said:

In short - no. Good players still pumping 180k av dmg/70%+ WR in Midway (even in this current beta stage where CV's kinda heavily nerfed) while not so good ones 50-70k/47-50% WR.

If you ignore damage difference then kinda yes-there is no more such an air dominance for one player because you can't really interact with enemy CV much.

Even El2aZer isn't averaging 180k in Midway, he's like 140K right now, and that is playing in 3 super unicum divisions.

Now CVs are the least important ship in the entire fleet. They provided sketchy spotting, just some early spotting and a spot here and there, and worse than a BB damage, and mostly done at the end of the match, when there is less AA. They can't cap, they can't tank, they can't spot torps, they can't permaspot a point, they can't fight enemy cv. They just spot a little and do some damage.

 

Sure, any top player will do good in them, but good players do good in any ship, so that isn't news.

 

As CVs are right now, I'd take a BB in my team over a CV.

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21 minutes ago, lup3s said:

My biggest mistake that battle? Trying to do my "job" as a DD.

 

Happened to me aswell. Ive asked this question now 4 times in the forums (yes, im actually counting) why would I play a DD still when I have to play it like a cruiser or a BB? Waiting for an answer so far^^

 

24 minutes ago, lup3s said:

Many DDs didn't even know how they got aided by me / allied CV by keeping the enemy planes busy (chasing / leading the enemy planes to certain parts of the map), preventing them from spotting (in the RTS system).

You could clear a cap, in return the enemy CV could clear another. You could attack, and the next attack would follow in a couple of minutes; this means enemy ships have some time to regain control of the area (maybe an AA ship to enforce the area - a couple of minutes is plenty of time to relocate).

Now .. the attack happens, and the next attack less than a minute later .. no time to cap, little time to escape. 

 

Its really sad, that this community has a problem in drawing the right conclusions. And they dont value or are incapable of understanding, how certain mechanics or players did help them constantly.

 

And its true, the interval, in which the new CVs are flying their attacks, is incompatible with how the rest of the game works. DoT/DCP/cooldown on any consumable actually/capping objectives is not designed to deal with something, that has the ability to reach every point on the map over and over again within 45 sec max.

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12 minutes ago, valrond said:

Even El2aZer isn't averaging 180k in Midway, he's like 140K right now, and that is playing in 3 super unicum divisions. 

 

Why do you need to lie about @El2aZeR ? You know that everyone can look up your wrong claim, right? He is playing mostly solo, as he has done most of the time...

 

el2.thumb.png.153909e08d74667cfe009420e1fec4b4.png

 

15 minutes ago, valrond said:

Now CVs are the least important ship in the entire fleet. They provided sketchy spotting, just some early spotting and a spot here and there, and worse than a BB damage, and mostly done at the end of the match, when there is less AA. They can't cap, they can't tank, they can't spot torps, they can't permaspot a point, they can't fight enemy cv. They just spot a little and do some damage.

 

You havent understood anything about the new class. It provides superior spotting compared to all classes. this is a TEAMGAME. Can you finaly acknowledge that and start playing accordingly? This game has gone down the egocentric path for way too long. With the new CVs, people that understand this are WINNING most of their games. If you dont care about your team and only want to farm damage, Id advice you to play coop. In randoms you have to interact with your team to get the best experiance. This has also always been the case for CVs. You want to look up that one guy, that had a thread going over ONE YEAR in this very forum, complaining that he keeps losing, while he deals all the time 200k damage in his Midway. Because he had ZERO teamplay and failed to understand, that its a teamgame. CVs are still a very important part of the fleet. They influence the outcome of the game. Your claim is actually refuted by the stats of the player, that you tried to use for your argument. If CVs are not important - how can he impact the game so that he wins most of his games?

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Best thing is you get players, even supposedly good ones, completely flipping their sh*t because CVs don't protect them from the rocket airplanes.

 

Newsflash: CVs can't protect you any longer. Best we've got is on summon fighter patrols that only cover a very small spot of the map and have such unreliably aggro that you can just fly into the patrol zone, do an attack run and fly out without the patrol fighters actually engaging, or if they by some miracle to engage, you just boost away until they stop chasing and by that point the DD will have left the patrol zone anyway so it's free lunch again.

 

 

It's hilarious to get reported by Hurricane clan members because of that. I'm really sorry your bottom tier DD got raped, but I literally can't do much about it.

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1 hour ago, valrond said:

Even El2aZer isn't averaging 180k in Midway, he's like 140K right now, and that is playing in 3 super unicum divisions.

Now CVs are the least important ship in the entire fleet. They provided sketchy spotting, just some early spotting and a spot here and there, and worse than a BB damage, and mostly done at the end of the match, when there is less AA. They can't cap, they can't tank, they can't spot torps, they can't permaspot a point, they can't fight enemy cv. They just spot a little and do some damage.

 

Sure, any top player will do good in them, but good players do good in any ship, so that isn't news.

 

As CVs are right now, I'd take a BB in my team over a CV.

Full super unicum division El2aZer? I guess they stomp the enemy and then feed on the running foes. Free and easy dmg. You put me in a full unicum division and I garantee you my stats will slowly turn purple as well. I'm almost on unicum winrate by soloing with Haku post hotfix. I guess in his games, enemy evaporates, meaning that there are less and less ships hovering in groups with AA, while I have to wait for those openings much later in the game which results in less dmg. 

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Yes it's better now.

 

A good CV is still important, and a bad CV will struggle -- this is normal and this was never the problem. The problem was the 1 vs 1 matchup in the air which at the same time could guarantee domination for one team and total absence in the air for the other. This is gone -- a good CV is now good, but this doesn't come with nullification of the enemy CV, who might be doing well, badly, or anything in between.

 

Look at the numbers:

  • In RTS CV's best Midway players were pushing 90% win rate across a large number of games.
  • Rework CV's the best guys with 100+ games are struggling to reach 70%.
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good player are somewhat getting back to old damage ( in the midway, other cvs are useless), bad player just get their planes deleted before they can even drop

"working as intended"

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6 minutes ago, jss78 said:

Yes it's better now.

 

A good CV is still important, and a bad CV will struggle -- this is normal and this was never the problem. The problem was the 1 vs 1 matchup in the air which at the same time could guarantee domination for one team and total absence in the air for the other. This is gone -- a good CV is now good, but this doesn't come with nullification of the enemy CV, who might be good, bad or anything in between.

 

Look at the numbers:

  • In RTS CV's best Midway players were pushing 90% win rate across a large number of games.
  • Rework CV's the best guys with 100+ games are struggling to reach 70%.

Apart from your numbers being wrong you also don't take into account 1) the constantly changing balance and 2) the fact that they are actually still learning the class again.

To answer the OP question. No nothing has changed in terms of Bad vs Good.

 

Previous version Good CV would shut down the Bad CV. This version Bad CV will be shut down by AA from other players on his own, good CV will suffer less from AA compared to the Bad CV. End result? the same.

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9 minutes ago, Spithas said:

Apart from your numbers being wrong you also don't take into account 1) the constantly changing balance and 2) the fact that they are actually still learning the class again.

To answer the OP question. No nothing has changed in terms of Bad vs Good.

 

Previous version Good CV would shut down the Bad CV. This version Bad CV will be shut down by AA from other players on his own, good CV will suffer less from AA compared to the Bad CV. End result? the same.

How are the numbers wrong?

 

CZ0dfta.png

 

You're right people are still learning, and the numbers are only building up.

 

That said, I'll gladly bet 100€ that in half a year's time, the mean win rate of ten best Rework Midway players will be lower than it ended up at for RTS Midway (85.7 %).

 

The difference in the counter play mechanics is fundamental. All ship classes struggle against various counters -- for new CV's it's AA, DD's suffer with radar, etc. But the double whammy is gone, with the great CV player at the same time doing his own thing, and shutting down the enemy CV. 

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16 minutes ago, jss78 said:

How are the numbers wrong?

 

CZ0dfta.png

 

You're right people are still learning, and the numbers are only building up.

 

That said, I'll gladly bet 100€ that in half a year's time, the mean win rate of ten best Rework Midway players will be lower than it ended up at for RTS Midway (85.7 %).

 

The difference in the counter play mechanics is fundamental. All ship classes struggle against various counters -- for new CV's it's AA, DD's suffer with radar, etc. But the double whammy is gone, with the great CV player at the same time doing his own thing, and shutting down the enemy CV. 

1)AA is a new counter for CVs?... in what hole have you been living in for the past year?

2)What is the double whammy you are reffering to?

 

3)Great CV player can still do his own thing now without having to worry about shutting down the enemy CV as it shuts itself down by losing plane wave after plane wave to the AA of other ships.

 

4) Abou the WR of top players atm, one other thing you are also neglecting is the super heavy AA meta being used currently in randoms due to the anticipation of the CV rework and resurgance of CV player numbers. You are also not providing a comparison between the good, the average and bad players as well even if the top performers end up with less WR than they had (which they won't) that only matters if the average and bad player maintain their numbers to pre rework levels. Otherwise nothing has been achieved on that front other than nerfing CVs a bit.

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20 minutes ago, Spithas said:

1)AA is a new counter for CVs?... in what hole have you been living in for the past year?

2)What is the double whammy you are reffering to?

 

3)Great CV player can still do his own thing now without having to worry about shutting down the enemy CV as it shuts itself down by losing plane wave after plane wave to the AA of other ships.

 

4) Abou the WR of top players atm, one other thing you are also neglecting is the super heavy AA meta being used currently in randoms due to the anticipation of the CV rework and resurgance of CV player numbers. You are also not providing a comparison between the good, the average and bad players as well even if the top performers end up with less WR than they had (which they won't) that only matters if the average and bad player maintain their numbers to pre rework levels. Otherwise nothing has been achieved on that front other than nerfing CVs a bit.

1. It is not a new counter, and I didn't suggest it was. It was just an example of a thing CV players need to work against, similar to other counters that exist to other classes.

 

2-4. Let me elaborate, as this is at the heart of my argument.

 

With most ships, getting that 40% BB, DD or CL/CA in your team means you have one bad ship, but that's the full extent of your trouble.

 

With RTS CV's things were different. Not only does your 40% CV struggle to hurt the enemy -- but he was ALSO your main defence against the enemy CV. And that's the double whammy. Not only does your CV do little to hurt the enemy, but at the same time he'll give free reign to enemy CV's. The good RTS CV was really, really powerful, but that was only the beginning of the problem. The killer blow for balance was that losing this 1-vs-1 CV matchup meant that you'd be simultaneously be raped by the enemy CV while your own CV is completely shut out.

 

And what's now different? The weaker of the two CV players is no longer at the mercy of the enemy CV. Now, if you have an OK CV player going against a great CV player, he'll do ... OK. No better, but also no worse. He'll dodge AA bubbles and do what he can. But the enemy CV doesn't have a special power to play against him. The great CV player will undoubtedly do great, but no longer has a special power to affect the enemy CV.

 

And that's what's fundamentally different about rework CV's. They might be boring to play, they might suck to play against -- these are fair arguments to make --  but from a balance perspective they will do better than RTS CV's.

 

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