Jump to content
You need to play a total of 50 battles to post in this section.
Skydeskiven

Suggestion to balance carriers and destroyers

50 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

[BACON]
Beta Tester
11 posts
4,713 battles

I love the new carrier gameplay and certainly feel it should stay. But the balance is terrible, especially towards destroyers.

I want all classes to be fun to play and have active roles.

 

I don't feel that the answer lies in any balancing of AA scores, since that does not really help the DDs, and just makes either CVs or AA ships underpowered. (Some balancing is of course necessary, but my post is not about AA ships and carriers)

 

I think the issue could be solved better by adjusting air detection for destroyers. Here are some possibilities I have thought of:

 

1) Give DDs zero (0) air detection.

This means that planes will never spot a DD. The carrier can see where fire comes from, but never get any model to target. Basically it gives carriers "Deep Water" detection.

 

2) Give DDs a air detection of perhaps one or two-hundred meters.

This means that a lucky flyover will reveal the general position of a DD to friendly team, but that a non-shooting destroyer is nearly impossible to attack with planes.

 

3) Combine reduced air detection with a shooting "Bloom"

Same as with shooting from smoke, firing enlarges air visibility by a fixed distance. This could be dependent on the caliber of the guns firing like present smoke firing, or it could be the full range of the guns or AA system engaging the enemy - Like the present shooting mechanic.

 

This method would give DDs back to role of spotting, area control, and cap capturing. It will also be a major indirect buff to torpedo destroyers, though I am not sure if that is a big problem. Gun destroyers have the possibility of going silent and avoiding planes.

Carriers will almost only be able to attack destroyers if they have been spotted by friendly surface ships. Which I think is okay. It means more teamplay between carriers and surface ships (especially destroyers) as carriers would have to support DDs with fighters and dance with the enemy CVs to avoid their fighters and attack the enemy DDs. Rocket planes would still be relevant (and no too overpowered, I think) as they can quickly move to a DD vs. DD hotspot and give support to friendly DDs and radar ships.

 

I know that historically rocket and gun armed planes were the terror and doom of destroyers in WWII, but that is no reason to oblirate an entire class in this arcade game.

 

I play carriers, but I want good destroyer gameplay and to see it rewarded!

(I apologize if anyone has made this sort of suggestion already, I make no claim to be a game designer genius)

 

 

  • Cool 7
  • Bad 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[NWP]
Players
5,886 posts
7,167 battles

I just made a very similiar topic with a bit different approach, but ill give some feedback here aswell.

 

1. would be overkill, that is not good. The CV needs to have some form of self defense incase a DD is attacking him.

2. Still a bit too short imo, i mean, couple of hundred meters more might work actually. But it still leaves Cruisers being spotted. I think the best solution is, that Cruisers should move with their DDs aswell, so that the DD has AA cover. If you make DDs invulnerable to CVs, then they are doing their own thing, while Cruisers are getting shafted really hard. Best case is having the teamplay option -> make the Cruiser able to move with the DD to an island and help him with AA.

3. Thats already in the game. If you fire your guns, Plane spotting range is bigger than normal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[SM0KE]
Players
3,260 posts
8,314 battles

My personal view is that (short of making DDs actually invisible, which would be counter-intuitive - spotting ships from the air was always a thing both in game, and in RL) playing with spotting distances isn't really the way to go, although a few +/- tweaks here and there might be a worthwhile balancing tool. You might also tweak the spotting distance of all ships from the air with speed (I vaguely recall that a ship's wake is often what gets seen first)?

 

The key reason for this view is aircraft Sixth Sense - the moment a DD spots a plane, the plane's detection icon goes off, so telling said plane that there is something sneaky in his vicinity. It's then just a matter of seconds to actually acquire the (usually a DD) ship in question. Because of this, merely increasing DDs' sneakiness may not be that helpful.

 

The suggestion that I've seen (so far) that is most likely to restore a bit of balance between DDs and CVs (IMO of course) might be to remove SS from planes, at least as a starter for ten - assuming people remember to turn off AA when not needed, that reduces the detection range of DDs back to their normal levels. Even with two CVs per team (although I would prefer a hard cap of one), that would significantly improve one's room to manoeuvre on all but the smallest maps...

 

Much as I would love my DDs to all become Stealth Ninjas Of Doom, it probably wouldn't be good for game balance to over-do it; at the moment, most DDs are indeed largely useless (unless you want to play them as gimped cruisers), but I feel it wouldn't be helpful to swing the pendulum too far the other way either (don't forget, spotter planes etc. would also be impacted if you significantly buffed DDs' air detection range).

  • Cool 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
4,123 posts
7,606 battles
7 minutes ago, Verblonde said:

My personal view is that (short of making DDs actually invisible, which would be counter-intuitive - spotting ships from the air was always a thing both in game, and in RL) playing with spotting distances isn't really the way to go, although a few +/- tweaks here and there might be a worthwhile balancing tool. You might also tweak the spotting distance of all ships from the air with speed (I vaguely recall that a ship's wake is often what gets seen first)?

 

The key reason for this view is aircraft Sixth Sense - the moment a DD spots a plane, the plane's detection icon goes off, so telling said plane that there is something sneaky in his vicinity. It's then just a matter of seconds to actually acquire the (usually a DD) ship in question. Because of this, merely increasing DDs' sneakiness may not be that helpful.

 

 

Yes, both these things need to addressed. Very shortly after the rework I already said, that DDs need to have a way smaller air detection. It wasnt received well. Guess it more and more becomes obvious, that this is indeed needed. To make spotting depended on the speed of the plane would also be very interesting. Its even realistic (for everyone, that needs a connection to reallife). So if a CV wants to really search a DD, he´d need to slow down to make it visible. There is a lot of room, to make this work really good i think. If WG wants to go that way, is ofc a complete different topic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[BHSFL]
[BHSFL]
Players
1,925 posts

I already overfly many DD without being able to see them in my world view because of rocket fighter flying speed.  So what you want is already there.  I however see DD pop up on my minimap behind me and then come around for them. RTS may be gone, but i work on the minimap for deciding where to go and what to attack.

 

Making DD invisible cannot be done ever becasue CV would not be able to defend themselves from DD. And in many matches that happens sooner or later. It happend to me multiple times after only 2-3 minutes in a match.....if there is a large hole in the lines where DD can pass through quick. Sinking a CV is one of the missions of a DD, especially if submarines are absent from the game. If there are submarines the DD has even an additional role.

 

Could live with CV not transmitting location of DD, but still able to see them and attack them. Would not matter much in DD frustration, but it would spare them a lot of incoming fire from ships. What few DD realize strange enough is that it is not aircraft that actually sink them. It is far more powerfull incoming fire from other ships upon being spotted.

 

I do think more types of ships should be able to use smoke. IRL all ships could....and did.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[SCRUB]
Players
2,476 posts
7,916 battles
32 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

Could live with CV not transmitting location of DD, but still able to see them and attack them. Would not matter much in DD frustration, but it would spare them a lot of incoming fire from ships. What few DD realize strange enough is that it is not aircraft that actually sink them. It is far more powerfull incoming fire from other ships upon being spotted.

This is the best suggestion so far.

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[EST]
[EST]
Players
1,018 posts
21,133 battles
1 hour ago, DFens_666 said:

Best case is having the teamplay option -> make the Cruiser able to move with the DD to an island and help him with AA.

But to help DD with AA, there cant be an island between them, so basically you need to go im cap with cruiser to support with AA. :fish_haloween:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[OGHF]
Players
861 posts
13,927 battles

Biggest problem I have is when in a T8 DD and get dragged into a T10 game with a T10 American CV,  trying to avoid CV planes is hard enough but American T10 CV planes rockets are OP to a T8 DD as it has no heal or as good AA defence compared to a T8/9 DD.

easiest thing is to change MM to not allow T8 DD to enter a game with a T10 CV.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[SCRUB]
[SCRUB]
Players
1,692 posts
2 hours ago, Skydeskiven said:

1) Give DDs zero (0) air detection.

This means that planes will never spot a DD. The carrier can see where fire comes from, but never get any model to target. Basically it gives carriers "Deep Water" detection.

That is just never going to happen. And why? What if you have a DD sneaking through the lines and starts hunting the CV? Then the CV will be defenseless.

 

2 hours ago, Skydeskiven said:

2) Give DDs a air detection of perhaps one or two-hundred meters.

This means that a lucky flyover will reveal the general position of a DD to friendly team, but that a non-shooting destroyer is nearly impossible to attack with planes.

Don't know if you know this, but if you turn your AA off (in most cases) the CV will barely be able to spot you in time to make the drop. That means that the time the CV player have to wait to be able to drop is almost greater than the spotting range of the DD. So if you reduse the spotting range it would be almost impossible to strike DD's and DD's would be basically immune to CV strikes. 

So that would get us back to option 1. Will never work.

2 hours ago, Skydeskiven said:

3) Combine reduced air detection with a shooting "Bloom"

Same as with shooting from smoke, firing enlarges air visibility by a fixed distance. This could be dependent on the caliber of the guns firing like present smoke firing, or it could be the full range of the guns or AA system engaging the enemy - Like the present shooting mechanic.

See option 1 and 2. 

 

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[SM0KE]
Players
3,260 posts
8,314 battles
1 hour ago, ForlornSailor said:

Very shortly after the rework I already said, that DDs need to have a way smaller air detection.

I'm not sure it'd entirely agree with this: with AA off, the Americans I've been playing with lately have an air detection of something like 3.6 +/- (Sims: 3.66; Gearing: 4.26; Kidd: 4.11 - base, according to the wiki, and I believe skills, modules etc. reduce that further - does anyone know different?), and they're mid-range for tubbiness.

 

If the CV doesn't know you're there, I suspect that's vaguely workable in practice *without Sixth Sense* (or whatever it's called), in conjunction with the other stuff that these DDs have going for them.

 

I'd like to see what removing SS did first, before messing with concealment values; I don't know if it would be enough for the IJN torp boats (notably) though...? I'm also conscious that my play style at the moment has me *wanting* to be found by planes (early game, at least), just at a moment of my choosing, whereas the current values might not be enough to avoid detection from the air entirely (IJN again)...

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
3,839 posts
7,514 battles
13 minutes ago, MortenTardo said:

That is just never going to happen. And why? What if you have a DD sneaking through the lines and starts hunting the CV? Then the CV will be defenseless.

 

CV would still have the usual surface detection rules so if the DD fired his gun or got within detection range he would be visible and CV could spot then attack.

 

But yes if CV wants to sit stationery 10 km behind his fleet while an undetected DD slips through and stealth torps him then yes he is defenceless, in the same way that a BB is defenceless if he wants to sail in straight lines at constant speed in DD infested waters.

 

 

20 minutes ago, MortenTardo said:

Don't know if you know this, but if you turn your AA off (in most cases) the CV will barely be able to spot you in time to make the drop. That means that the time the CV player have to wait to be able to drop is almost greater than the spotting range of the DD. So if you reduse the spotting range it would be almost impossible to strike DD's and DD's would be basically immune to CV strikes. 

 

It's not that hard to remember/predict where DD will be then with rocket planes click to attack the area then fine tune the strike onto the target.

 

Perhaps having different spotting ranges for different aircraft would work?  Rocket fighters get a much lower spotting range than say torpedo bombers so CV can rocket attack spotted DD or use TB to spot the DD himself but he can't do both.

  • Cool 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[SCRUB]
[SCRUB]
Players
1,692 posts
On 2/11/2019 at 7:11 PM, Capra76 said:

CV would still have the usual surface detection rules so if the DD fired his gun or got within detection range he would be visible and CV could spot then attack.

Why would you fire your guns when you can get to 5.6-6km away from the CV and torp hes @ss??? 

And he has no way of detecting you back. Sounds like very bad gamedesign to me. 

On 2/11/2019 at 7:11 PM, Capra76 said:

But yes if CV wants to sit stationery 10 km behind his fleet while an undetected DD slips through and stealth torps him then yes he is defenceless, in the same way that a BB is defenceless if he wants to sail in straight lines at constant speed in DD infested waters.

Don't have to sit stationery. Also what else is a CV supposed to do if not stay in cover or behind the fleet? Tank for the team? You are funny! 

  • Cool 1
  • Bad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[TOXIC]
Players
4,508 posts
11,466 battles
25 minutes ago, Verblonde said:

I'm not sure it'd entirely agree with this: with AA off, the Americans I've been playing with lately have an air detection of something like 3.6 +/- (Sims: 3.66; Gearing: 4.26; Kidd: 4.11 - base, according to the wiki, and I believe skills, modules etc. reduce that further - does anyone know different?), and they're mid-range for tubbiness.

 

If the CV doesn't know you're there, I suspect that's vaguely workable in practice *without Sixth Sense* (or whatever it's called), in conjunction with the other stuff that these DDs have going for them.

 

I'd like to see what removing SS did first, before messing with concealment values; I don't know if it would be enough for the IJN torp boats (notably) though...? I'm also conscious that my play style at the moment has me *wanting* to be found by planes (early game, at least), just at a moment of my choosing, whereas the current values might not be enough to avoid detection from the air entirely (IJN again)...

Shima with CE and concealment module has something around 3.3 km air concealment

Kagero goes down to 3.0 km

On t7 (the biggest DDs that don't get to enjoy the module yet) the most visible DD is Minsk - with CE alone the aerial concealment gets below 3.9km. The stealthiest, Shiratsuyu, enjoys something like 3.1km.

 

Basically, they are all quite stealthy, often too stealthy to even attempt an attack in the first rocket fly-by that finds them, giving them substantially more time for reaction and making sure that planes actually briefly lose contact (if AA isn't active) while lining up the next attacks (since even rocket planes need a little prep time if they want to land some of these rockets on anything smaller than a Yamato).

 

And all that's assuming they are getting found in the first place, which really wouldn't be that easy... if not for the early warning system alerting planes of their presence  :Smile-_tongue:

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
4,123 posts
7,606 battles
25 minutes ago, Verblonde said:

If the CV doesn't know you're there, I suspect that's vaguely workable in practice *without Sixth Sense* (or whatever it's called), in conjunction with the other stuff that these DDs have going for them.

 

I'd like to see what removing SS did first, before messing with concealment values; I don't know if it would be enough for the IJN torp boats (notably) though...? I'm also conscious that my play style at the moment has me *wanting* to be found by planes (early game, at least), just at a moment of my choosing, whereas the current values might not be enough to avoid detection from the air entirely (IJN again)...

 

I agree with you. Balancing should go step-by-step and sixth sense needs to go first. I just wish we shouldnt have to deal with all of this on the live server.

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
3,839 posts
7,514 battles
3 minutes ago, MortenTardo said:

Why would you fire your guns when you can get to 5.6-6km away from the CV and torp hes @ss??? 

And he has no way of detecting you back. Sounds like very bad gamedesing to me. 

 

Can't that argument be applied to all ship classes?  A lone straight sailing BB has no way of detecting a DD 6 km from him, should stealth torpedoes be removed from the game?

 

Why should CV get a special exemption from the game mechanics everyone else has to live with and isn't weakness to torpedoes meant feature for some ships?

 

 

8 minutes ago, MortenTardo said:

Don't have to sit stationery. Also what else is a CV supposed to do if not stay in cover or behind the fleet? Tank for the team? You are funny! 

If the CV is close enough to supporting ships (behind cover or undetected) then there are plenty of other things to spot for him and shoot back, the only CV that would suffer are the potatoes that want to sit at the back with zero situational awareness and spam planes at everyone.

 

But if it is a big issue then as I said, perhaps different detection ranges for different aircraft.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[SM0KE]
Players
3,260 posts
8,314 battles
23 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

But yes if CV wants to sit stationery 10 km behind his fleet while an undetected DD slips through and stealth torps him then yes he is defenceless, in the same way that a BB is defenceless if he wants to sail in straight lines at constant speed in DD infested waters.

To be fair, these are slightly different things in that the BB doesn't have to switch view modes etc. to be paying attention to what's happening in his immediate vicinity.

 

Having caught maybe three CVs unawares since the rework (usually in Kidd for some reason, although I'm sure it's coincidence), I think their present level of vulnerability isn't excessively out of whack, but I would hesitate to make it much worse. As to the torp v guns discussion, I personally unload everything I have (assuming torps aren't reloading) at the blighters - the sooner they're dead, the sooner the spotting threat from their planes is gone too, and if they wake up, they might dodge incoming torps.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[NWP]
Beta Tester
1,567 posts
13,654 battles

Reducing the spotting capability of CV's vs DD's can come in any shape or form. Some examples from hard to less hard solutions:

 

a) Remove it completely, i.e. only the CV can attack the DD (as already suggested above).

b) Give DD's some kind of emergency button in form of a 'signal jamming' consumable that severely limits (like cyclone) or removes (like option a) CV team spotting for a certain amount of time.

c) Give plane spotting the rendering delay that the upcomming radar changes will also feature (6 seconds if I am not entirely mistaken).

d) etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
719 posts
8,430 battles

Some excellent thoughts here. Combining an old one of mine with the best here.

 

1/ Give the AA consumable from both ships and CVs zero surface detection. 

2/ Remove "DETECTED" from aircraft so the only way they see ships is visually themselves.

 

 

Basically aircraft are not BBs, they don't need to know when they have been spotted by DDs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
38 posts
197 battles

You could say, (theoretically of course) remove the rockets while doing a couple of other things too.

 

Allow both nations to choose between AP and HE dive bombers while in the game. Say, if you're using your CV, you'd have a drop bar above the DB planes that allows you to switch. At that point all of your planes start going through a rearm procedure that equates to a cooldown. Have the AP dive bombers retain their current large aiming parameters, while HE DB's would get far more precise. Let the HE db's be the CV's tool against destroyers. You could even go as far as to allow American CV players to choose (while in port) between 1000 lbs bombs or 500 lbs. Do you want devastation, or accuracy kind of thing. Trade Offs.

 

Japanese planes could be stealthier, prioritize torpedoes from range, yet without the 1000 lbs HE bomb choice.

 

I'm all for them removing rockets, but I would want them to provide a serious option for very accurate dive bombers. CV players need an option against destroyers, but it doesn't have to be as devastating as the rockets can be. Plus I'd really just like to see more customizable deployment options in the match.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[SM0KE]
Players
3,260 posts
8,314 battles
52 minutes ago, Koruption said:

CV players need an option against destroyers, but it doesn't have to be as devastating as the rockets can be.

Removing rockets may not even be necessary (objectively, they're quite fun to play with, which does matter) - UYME it's quite rare to be killed by rockets alone; as a DD, it's normally the enemy ships that get me, rather than planes*.

 

My feeling is that the real impact on DDs from the new CVs is 90% the spotting; the damage is relatively small beer in comparison - it's quite hard to get solid hits on a DD that's making a serious effort not to be hit.

 

* Note: this assertion comes from almost entirely playing US DDs, and Groz in randoms; the answer might well be different in an IJN torp boat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
719 posts
8,430 battles
19 hours ago, Verblonde said:

Removing rockets may not even be necessary (objectively, they're quite fun to play with, which does matter) - UYME it's quite rare to be killed by rockets alone; as a DD, it's normally the enemy ships that get me, rather than planes*.

 

My feeling is that the real impact on DDs from the new CVs is 90% the spotting; the damage is relatively small beer in comparison - it's quite hard to get solid hits on a DD that's making a serious effort not to be hit.

 

* Note: this assertion comes from almost entirely playing US DDs, and Groz in randoms; the answer might well be different in an IJN torp boat.

Likewise, US and Pan Asian DDs don't give a rats about rocket planes. Spotting is the issue, the damage from rockets is never more than a few k for me. The times my DD has been sunk it was dive bombers and gunfire doing most of the damage. 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[BBMM]
Players
3,704 posts
4,039 battles

It's pretty easy... DDs need scruiser support - so give them a larger smokescreen, where the cruisers can hide. 

If they use smoke and sit in it, I usually do not hang around when playing Cv anyway as I cannot spot them and I'll lose planes....

 

If the rockets are a problem... flags can ADD DISPERSION so WG can just add dispersion to rockets when fired at a DD.

But so far, most games I played there were DDs ALIVE at the end... never seen that in the RTS version.

And when I play a DD (and I know I suck...) it is not uncommon for me to kill the CV... instead of vice-versa. So... ehh... whining a bit?

ALso, when I play the CV... usually I get killed... by DD... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[NFURS]
Beta Tester
73 posts
5,620 battles

I think there is nothing that should be changed. I've been playing some matches since 8.0 came out and I've seen many different situations and play styles from DD captains. The ones that stayed relatively close to their team, managed to easily outplay CV's, the ones that rushed ahead alone didn't survived long. Sounds correct to me. People just need to get used to move in formations and stay at a proper distance from each other. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[SM0KE]
Players
3,260 posts
8,314 battles
9 minutes ago, Asthaven said:

I think there is nothing that should be changed. I've been playing some matches since 8.0 came out and I've seen many different situations and play styles from DD captains. The ones that stayed relatively close to their team, managed to easily outplay CV's, the ones that rushed ahead alone didn't survived long. Sounds correct to me. People just need to get used to move in formations and stay at a proper distance from each other. 

Or, to put it another way: play your DDs like an underweight cruiser. Breath-takingly dull, not to mention ineffective...

 

In the old meta, there were a number of different ways to play most of the ship types in the game; you are proposing that reducing it to one ('blob' up) is a good thing. I suspect rather a lot of DD players would disagree with considerable vehemence.

 

As I've said elsewhere, with what you're apparently advocating, there is no advantage in taking a Kagero over a Kii, and you get much better survivability with the latter...

  • Cool 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
31 posts
1,173 battles
Vor 12 Minuten, Asthaven sagte:

I think there is nothing that should be changed. I've been playing some matches since 8.0 came out and I've seen many different situations and play styles from DD captains. The ones that stayed relatively close to their team, managed to easily outplay CV's, the ones that rushed ahead alone didn't survived long. Sounds correct to me. People just need to get used to move in formations and stay at a proper distance from each other. 

 

As I've said in another thread, this might work for some DDs that basically are mini-CAs and rely on their guns, but for stealth ships like the IJN torp DDs that rely on concealed flanking and torp positioning without having other ships next to them this still means they're basically useless.

 

Also why bring a DD at all if you can basically do the same thing with a CA that has more health pool?

  • Cool 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×