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DFens_666

CV interaction with other ships - i think we need balancing fast

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No, this is not so much about balancing AA and planes, and yes, i made my own CV thread, like everybody else :Smile_teethhappy:

But i think the real issues have been mostly ignored, because neither side is wrong right now. Alltho, some people have mentioned it.

 

- CVs are unfun to play because AA can be too strong, especially when being lowtier.

I think this is the core issue for most CV players right now. And there have been warning signs about this basicly from the beginning. The gameplay is very repetetive. So in order to have fun, you have to be able to strike targets. Otherwise its totaly unfun.

 

- Especially DDs and Cruisers (to some extent) are also unfun to play because their movement is hindered by being permaspotted

Some DDs simply cant do anything, and this is understandable. They rely on their stealth, and currently CVs take it away from them. Its not only that they strike them, but they give away their position. Some cruisers need their central location, preferably at islands in order to do their job: Fighting DDs, Radar if available, and try to help with AA. Currently, getting into those positions is nigh impossible, because the CV will spot you 45 secs into the game, which will attract BB fire.

 

The 2 issues have nothing to do with one another. Even if the CV is not striking a specific ship, he is still spotting it. This creates issues for DDs and Cruisers = game is unfun. At the same time, WG is trying to make CVs more popular, but they will achieve the opposite if CVs are unfun to play. Which many people are saying right now.

So we are in a state, where 3 out of 4 classes have big issues, the 3rd one being Cruisers, even if not all, but some of them. In the end, if we cant stop the development of "Blob-Meta" it will remain unfun to play imo. Average people have a hard time to change they behaviour, unless something is forcing them. Currently, the game is forcing them to blob up. Even in games without CV ive seen Blobs being formed, and they camp in the back. So once it is in their head, they will keep playing like that, unless they get forced to do something else.

 

So how to tackle it:

Actually, some people have said, CVs could only spot for the minimap. Initially, i didnt like that at all. But right now, i think it would actually solve both problems.

If CVs would only spot for themselves (or minimap basicly), it would give Cruisers the ability to move up and support their DDs with AA. This will benefit DDs aswell, as they can play aggressive again since they have AA cover with them. Also flanking is less futile since you would be targeted by the entire team. And i think the detection for planes should go away, so they have a harder time to know if something is in range or not. Planes are pretty fast as it is, and i dont think reducing Air spotting range is the way to go either.

At the same time, AA needs to be tweaked so CVs have more fun to play, even while having less of an impact. But because of DoTs, its kinda hard to say which way to go.

Either more alpha with less DoTs

or less alpha with more DoTs

Both have pros and cons. Even if you reduce fire/flooding chance, it can still screw you because RNG. If you increase DoTs, then it will certainly screw you, if you cant defend yourself, but on the other hand, if the CV is being unlucky, then he wont get the DoT to work.

Overall it might be easier to balance them by alpha damage only, but i dont think that will happen. So overall, im not sure what would be the best way to go.

 

And we need to balance the -2 tier difference for BOTH sides. Here are 2 options, which both make sense imo:

https://forum.worldofwarships.eu/topic/113339-standardized-planes-and-quasi-restricted-matchmaking-for-cvs/

https://forum.worldofwarships.eu/topic/113339-standardized-planes-and-quasi-restricted-matchmaking-for-cvs/?do=findComment&comment=2864257

 

 

Tl;dr

- Reduce spotting from CVs to reduce the pressure from DDs and Cruisers -> more fun for them

- Remove situational awareness for Planes -> if you want to find a DD, its still possible, but not so easy as before

- To give CVs something back, make them less punishable -> more fun for CVs

- Reduce the impact for -2 MM -> more fun for everyone

- Blob-Meta Needs to stopped IMMEDIATELY !

 

Win-Win ? :Smile_Default:

 

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I think planes spotting only for themselves might be a bit overboard, but quasi-Cyclone (so they'll only render for someone that is within a certain distance; you could then even make that distance vary from plane to plane as a further balancing measure if you want) spotting could already help quite a bit, especially with still allowing DDs to take more aggressive positions early game (where they'd be confident no enemies would be close enough to shoot them).

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Perma-spotting is very much a problem when there are 2 CVs per side. 

Lowering the limit to 1 per side (hard cap) would allow at least some DDs or Cruisers to actually not be spotted all the time (CV has to choose) and operate more freely.

Having it set that way should allow better tweaking of AA vs CV damage too. I just cannot see how WG can tweak anything with the current limits + allowing for two different tier CVs in the same game as well.

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I only play Tier 4 & 5 as a CV so keep that in mind but the amount of DDs per game has gone up. I see 4-5 DDs every match. The reason I am able to spot them is because most DDs are creatures of habit and move the same path. If I know there are 3 DDs alive and I don't see them I get very , very nervous and start looking for them.

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41 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

I think this is the core issue for most CV players right now. And there have been warning signs about this basicly from the beginning. The gameplay is very repetetive. So in order to have fun, you have to be able to strike targets. Otherwise its totaly unfun.

Go play Co-op , then. Bots don't mind being struck. Players do. We don't sing a merry song whilst we turn broadside to a battleship, thinking of the warm glow of satisfaction we'll receive (along with multiple citadels) for making the other player happy. No-one wants to be a CVs XP pinata, either. 

 

CV game play needs to be slowed down a bit. Playing a BB in this game often involves floating around for five minutes before anything happens. Ten, if you're in a Colorado. You get in the right position for the devastating strike, avoid overextending, waiting for the moment to make a strong contribution. Cruisers and DDs are exciting because you have a fine margin between success and failure, but you spend most of your time lining up the enemy in anticipation of sudden bursts of frantic action. You can't shoehorn an all-action pew pew pew class into that meta. It's like giving a five year old a double espresso and letting them loose in an international chess master tournament.

 

45 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

Some DDs simply cant do anything, and this is understandable. They rely on their stealth, and currently CVs take it away from them. Its not only that they strike them, but they give away their position. Some cruisers need their central location, preferably at islands in order to do their job: Fighting DDs, Radar if available, and try to help with AA. Currently, getting into those positions is nigh impossible, because the CV will spot you 45 secs into the game, which will attract BB fire.

To be honest... Destroyers would be well advised to a) stay within range of a strong AA ship until the enemy CV has shown their hand and b) turn their AA off unless they absolutely have to. If you keep moving and use your stealth and smoke then a single CV is quite likely to miss you. More than one CV, however, is a pain in the rump and WG shouldn't allow it. I do recall saying that before 0.8.0 hit. 

 

53 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

Blob-Meta Needs to stopped IMMEDIATELY !

Why you want nerf team play??? The Blob is a perfectly decent tactic and sense when combined with the new AA mechanics. It's the Static Blob which is the problem. It doesn't seem to be able to go forwards.

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1 hour ago, invicta2012 said:

Go play Co-op , then. Bots don't mind being struck. Players do. We don't sing a merry song whilst we turn broadside to a battleship, thinking of the warm glow of satisfaction we'll receive (along with multiple citadels) for making the other player happy. No-one wants to be a CVs XP pinata, either. 

 

Might aswell remove CVs then. I mean, you can ignore that there needs to be a solution for everyone, but that doesnt make it less true.

CVs are here - and i dont think WG wants to remove them. So the best way to deal with them is, by making the game fun for everyone. If CVs are unpopular, WG failed. If DDs/Cruisers are unfun to play, then WG has shot themselves in the foot even harder. Both are unacceptable for them in the long run, since they will cash in on Premium CVs aswell :fish_book:

 

Quote

Why you want nerf team play??? The Blob is a perfectly decent tactic and sense when combined with the new AA mechanics. It's the Static Blob which is the problem. It doesn't seem to be able to go forwards.

 

Flanking is no teamplay then? Somtimes you need someone from your team to move to a flank to break enemy formation. If everyone has to sit in one blob, its lame to play. Sitting in on one spot is not teamplay in my book.

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55 minutes ago, Tyrendian89 said:

I think planes spotting only for themselves might be a bit overboard, but quasi-Cyclone (so they'll only render for someone that is within a certain distance; you could then even make that distance vary from plane to plane as a further balancing measure if you want) spotting could already help quite a bit, especially with still allowing DDs to take more aggressive positions early game (where they'd be confident no enemies would be close enough to shoot them).

 

Yes, i think that sounds good aswell and would work. It would atleast give CVs some teamplay in certain cases.

 

I just think it needs to happen fast. Balancing AA values wont solve this issue one bit. And when WG said, they are pretty close now, then the CV players will keep complaining, and so will the DD players.

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If any complaining DD player had real skill they would not think of "blobs" as boring or unwelcome. They should rejoyce in wild and reckless celebration : These 'blobs' present an area were torpedo's (walls)  can hit multiple targets !!

 

Even for CV players that is true, but sadly we cannot drop more then 2-3 torpdedo's......still stray ones often do hit something in the blob i didnt aim for....

 

If these "blobs" remain and DD not take advantage of that, the submarines when they come will.......

 

See here how that works ( DD can/should do such attack run on multiple targets too ) :

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

If any complaining DD player had real skill they would not think of "blobs" as boring or unwelcome. They should rejoyce in wild and reckless celebration : These 'blobs' present an area were torpedo's (walls)  can hit multiple targets !!

 

Even for CV players that is true, but sadly we cannot drop more then 2-3 torpdedo's......still stray ones often do hit something in the blob i didnt aim for....

 

If these "blobs" remain and DD not take advantage of that, the submarines when they come will.......

 

I just have to ask, you know torprange from DDs?

If those 2 blobs sit at 18-20km in hightier games, and the DD has 10km torprange, that means he has to leave all AA cover from their fleet, making them vulnerable to the planes.

So even if the blob would be a good target for DDs, they simply cant cash in on it.

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You guys are trying... I give you props for that. But you are making a plan that would take WG a year to implement and test. Without doing anything else on the current implementation. They wont do it... at least not now. They will tweak AA...and CVs a bit... but thats it. They wont limit CVs to 1 per game... not with RN CVs about to be released. They will stick to their plans... tweak a bit here and there... but thats it. We have what we have... and it wont change any time soon. 

 

Sadly.. the game I liked has changed. Will I like it again? TBH... I am not sure...

 

 

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12 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

I just have to ask, you know torprange from DDs?

If those 2 blobs sit at 18-20km in hightier games, and the DD has 10km torprange, that means he has to leave all AA cover from their fleet, making them vulnerable to the planes.

So even if the blob would be a good target for DDs, they simply cant cash in on it.

 

I know the torpoedo range for T6/7 russian DD's.....that they should buff :-))

 

The rest can come to pass if you dont kill yourself at a cap. Rushing to caps ( early ) needs to stop as general DD behaviour if they want to live and enjoy the game again. Radar, cruisers, aircraft, other DD with gun or toprpedo advantages.....what do you want there after seconds of match start anyways ?  You will die there.

 

 

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29 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

If any complaining DD player had real skill they would not think of "blobs" as boring or unwelcome.

This, if you'll forgive me, is strongly suggestive of a lack of experience playing DDs, especially higher tier ones.

 

Yes, you occasionally get a glorious moment where you can blast more than one ship sailing in close proximity, but those occasions are rare. The way 'blobs' tend to form, you usually end up with more static play, and with those blobs usually forming outside of torp range (unless maybe you're running Asashio without TA, or Shima with the Stupid Torps, or maybe Gearing), a DD can't do anything useful with them without being exposed to planes spotting them, which usually equals instant death from surface fire.

 

The only DDs that can play remotely competently at the moment are those which can kill planes reasonably reliably, or at the very least do enough damage that the CV player(s) go for easier targets; 'competently' in this context means do as much of a DD's job as possible, not pretend to be a below-par cruiser (if you're going to hide under friendly AA for much of the time, don't bother playing a DD - that's not what they're about, or supposed to be about).

 

I might invite you to consider why the vast majority of good DD players (so, not me) are complaining so vociferously about the current state of the rework - I'm reasonably confident that the majority of these folk can't *all* be doing it wrong...

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i like the idea of planes spotting for the mini-map - but that removes some teamplay from them. since thats all they bring to teamplay now really. (fighters are meh) 

 

perhaps give the spotting via plane a new radar like effect. 5-10 second delay before its registered for the rest of the team. 

 

AA needs tweaking a lot - but the core issue is that your taking a skilled based human controlled element ( The CV ) and throwing it against AI with predetermined results. 

 

AA needs more player interaction honestly. it should be skilled CV against skilled AA shooter etc. not Skilled CV against absurd OP AI AA with no possible way to do anything against it. when a super uni has the same success against a target as a complete noob there is a problem. There needs to be more player vs player interaction between CV and ships. otherwise how on earth can they ever balance this game. Ether CV will be happy because AA is so bad they take minimal losses and get to do damage. or AA is so strong cruisers / BBs are happy they wipe 75% of a squad out on each attack and take minimal damage. 

 

with the current AI AA theres no way to get this in a position everyone is happy. the CV players will complain all day that losing half there squad to the computer and not the player is gimping the results they can achieve. for example - if the best yamato player in the world plays a game against 12 complete potato BBs showing full broadside and barely landing hits on him - while hes spamming citadels, thats cool and fine right? because its skill vs skill. 

 

put the best CV player in a world with the same 12 potatos BUT there AI AA still shoots half his squad down because, its AI not potato controlled, far different results. The results of a CVs performance should not be based on a computer controlled element. its ether a multiplayer game or its not. right now its CV(Player) vs computer defense with a human steering. 

 

until that changes aint no hope for this balance. 

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38 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

If any complaining DD player had real skill they would not think of "blobs" as boring or unwelcome. They should rejoyce in wild and reckless celebration : These 'blobs' present an area were torpedo's (walls)  can hit multiple targets !!

Well, yes. My last 6 Monaghan games have averaged 58k damage. (That's x 3.5 my career average in DDs).

 

Why?  Well...People have stopped playing destroyers because, apparently, they are impossible to play in the new meta. But people have also stopped playing CVs. The end result is lots of unescorted battleships floating around in a blob running into torpedo walls. It is fill yer boots time out there at the moment.

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40 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

If any complaining DD player had real skill they would not think of "blobs" as boring or unwelcome. They should rejoyce in wild and reckless celebration : These 'blobs' present an area were torpedo's (walls)  can hit multiple targets !!

 

Even for CV players that is true, but sadly we cannot drop more then 2-3 torpdedo's......still stray ones often do hit something in the blob i didnt aim for....

 

If these "blobs" remain and DD not take advantage of that, the submarines when they come will.......

 

See here how that works ( DD can/should do such attack run on multiple targets too ) :

 

 

Yes, a massed blob of ships with a CV spotting them for them and no doubt filled with radar and hydro ships sailing slowly at the back sounds wonderful... who doesn’t want all 12 ships focusing you in unison when the CV player perma spots you with rocket planes.

 

If you want 20km Shima players only, that’s what you’ll get.

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23 minutes ago, nambr9 said:

Sadly.. the game I liked has changed. Will I like it again? TBH... I am not sure...

 

Same here buddy, same here... And you are right about WG. Its not going to happen, I know. But at the same time I feel like I have to try.

 

16 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

The rest can come to pass if you dont kill yourself at a cap. Rushing to caps ( early ) needs to stop as general DD behaviour if they want to live and enjoy the game again.

 

I said it many times before, and never ever did someone answer: Why play a DD then? I can just take a cruiser. Spotting is provided from the CVs and if one team manages to get the the advantage, any ship can cap. Some Cruisers are perfect now for that. If you actually look at the serverstats: Minotaur capping points are up 50% in the last week already, while Shima is down to avg 28 capture points per game. This is alarming.

 

3 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

Well, yes. My last 6 Monaghan games have averaged 58k damage. (That's x 3.5 my career average in DDs).

 

Why?  Well...People have stopped playing destroyers because, apparently, they are impossible to play in the new meta. But people have also stopped playing CVs. The end result is lots of unescorted battleships floating around in a blob running into torpedo walls. It is fill yer boots time out there at the moment.

 

So you did good in games without CV because the players are now even more stupid and influenced in their choice of ships because of the meta, that the rework created. Sounds like you acknowledge, something is very wrong with the meta.

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2 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

No, this is not so much about balancing AA and planes, and yes, i made my own CV thread, like everybody else :Smile_teethhappy:

But i think the real issues have been mostly ignored, because neither side is wrong right now. Alltho, some people have mentioned it.

 

- CVs are unfun to play because AA can be too strong, especially when being lowtier.

I think this is the core issue for most CV players right now. And there have been warning signs about this basicly from the beginning. The gameplay is very repetetive. So in order to have fun, you have to be able to strike targets. Otherwise its totaly unfun.

 

- Especially DDs and Cruisers (to some extent) are also unfun to play because their movement is hindered by being permaspotted

Some DDs simply cant do anything, and this is understandable. They rely on their stealth, and currently CVs take it away from them. Its not only that they strike them, but they give away their position. Some cruisers need their central location, preferably at islands in order to do their job: Fighting DDs, Radar if available, and try to help with AA. Currently, getting into those positions is nigh impossible, because the CV will spot you 45 secs into the game, which will attract BB fire.

 

The 2 issues have nothing to do with one another. Even if the CV is not striking a specific ship, he is still spotting it. This creates issues for DDs and Cruisers = game is unfun. At the same time, WG is trying to make CVs more popular, but they will achieve the opposite if CVs are unfun to play. Which many people are saying right now.

So we are in a state, where 3 out of 4 classes have big issues, the 3rd one being Cruisers, even if not all, but some of them. In the end, if we cant stop the development of "Blob-Meta" it will remain unfun to play imo. Average people have a hard time to change they behaviour, unless something is forcing them. Currently, the game is forcing them to blob up. Even in games without CV ive seen Blobs being formed, and they camp in the back. So once it is in their head, they will keep playing like that, unless they get forced to do something else.

 

So how to tackle it:

Actually, some people have said, CVs could only spot for the minimap. Initially, i didnt like that at all. But right now, i think it would actually solve both problems.

If CVs would only spot for themselves (or minimap basicly), it would give Cruisers the ability to move up and support their DDs with AA. This will benefit DDs aswell, as they can play aggressive again since they have AA cover with them. Also flanking is less futile since you would be targeted by the entire team. And i think the detection for planes should go away, so they have a harder time to know if something is in range or not. Planes are pretty fast as it is, and i dont think reducing Air spotting range is the way to go either.

At the same time, AA needs to be tweaked so CVs have more fun to play, even while having less of an impact. But because of DoTs, its kinda hard to say which way to go.

Either more alpha with less DoTs

or less alpha with more DoTs

Both have pros and cons. Even if you reduce fire/flooding chance, it can still screw you because RNG. If you increase DoTs, then it will certainly screw you, if you cant defend yourself, but on the other hand, if the CV is being unlucky, then he wont get the DoT to work.

Overall it might be easier to balance them by alpha damage only, but i dont think that will happen. So overall, im not sure what would be the best way to go.

 

And we need to balance the -2 tier difference for BOTH sides. Here are 2 options, which both make sense imo:

https://forum.worldofwarships.eu/topic/113339-standardized-planes-and-quasi-restricted-matchmaking-for-cvs/

https://forum.worldofwarships.eu/topic/113339-standardized-planes-and-quasi-restricted-matchmaking-for-cvs/?do=findComment&comment=2864257

 

 

Tl;dr

- Reduce spotting from CVs to reduce the pressure from DDs and Cruisers -> more fun for them

- Remove situational awareness for Planes -> if you want to find a DD, its still possible, but not so easy as before

- To give CVs something back, make them less punishable -> more fun for CVs

- Reduce the impact for -2 MM -> more fun for everyone

- Blob-Meta Needs to stopped IMMEDIATELY !

 

Win-Win ? :Smile_Default:

 

 

One suggestion I read somewhere here and found interesting was that spotting could work like a radio transmission via Consumable for a certain time. So a bit like radar. Not sure if that would be fun but I would be curious at the very least

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First of all. Players have to ask them self what they think the role of the CV is supposed to be. 

At the moment players are all over the place. "CV's should be support only," "CV's should only spot with almost no dmg output", "BB counter," "DD counter", "removed from the game" (which is just dumb. Naval game without CV's is ridiculous) and some even think that "CV's just be there to look pretty. Not being able to strike anything". 

 

Like i have said many times already, rocket planes are the ones that harass DD's the most. That seems to be something most agree on. Easy fix for WG is to give a 2 minute delay before you can launch rocket planes. From the start of the game and after they land. That will give the CV 10 rocket plane launches throughout a full game. Seems fair enough to me.

So that already fixes alot of the spotting issues, gives DD's more survivability and gives them time to get into positions if needed. And it gives the DD players some "skill" advantages if they pay attention to what the CV does. 

You can still drop DD's with DB's and TB's but that takes much more skill and can be avoided pretty damn easily by DD's. So that is skill vs skill. 100% fine imo. 

 

I also think the alpha should be higher and leave the Dot as it is now on IJN CV's. (Basically non existent). That would remove the annoying aspect for ships like BB's and cruisers. 

 

Also the plane survivability should be a bit higher or the hangar size needs to be improved. Because right now, if you are unlucky and hit some flak or accidentally fly into an AA cruisers AA, you can lose a whole squadron. That will take you half the game to get back. 

WG nerfed planes and buffed AA at the same time. One of those was enough. 

 

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1 minute ago, MortenTardo said:

I also think the alpha should be higher and leave the Dot as it is now on IJN CV's. (Basically non existent). That would remove the annoying aspect for ships like BB's and cruisers. 
 the hangar size needs to be improved. Because right now, if you are unlucky and hit some flak or accidentally fly into an AA cruisers AA, you can lose a whole squadron. That will take you half the game to get back.

 

Yes, those sound reasonable.

I also think, almost no DoTs is the way to go. Its far easier to balance it properly. Remains the question about US HE Bombs, if that is working out properly on TX. Ranger has 2 bombs per run, so getting multiple permafires seems out of the question from what i can tell. 

I think the way CVs are supposed to be is clearly about dealing damage. Maybe the alternative line might be about other things. But currently, everything points towards dealing damage as primary objective. Spotting aswell, even tho WG doesnt accnowledge that (yet). But i think, spotting needs to be changed in order to make necessary balances so that everyone is able to enjoy the game. If you change the spotting, then you can balance the CVs around damage.

 

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1 hour ago, Beastofwar said:

If any complaining DD player had real skill they would not think of "blobs" as boring or unwelcome. They should rejoyce in wild and reckless celebration : These 'blobs' present an area were torpedo's (walls)  can hit multiple targets !!

 

Even for CV players that is true, but sadly we cannot drop more then 2-3 torpdedo's......still stray ones often do hit something in the blob i didnt aim for....

 

If these "blobs" remain and DD not take advantage of that, the submarines when they come will.......

 

See here how that works ( DD can/should do such attack run on multiple targets too ) :

 

 

i see what you mean but good luck when your torps get spotted ten years in advance by dem CV bois at the back.

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21 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

One suggestion I read somewhere here and found interesting was that spotting could work like a radio transmission via Consumable for a certain time. So a bit like radar. Not sure if that would be fun but I would be curious at the very least

 

Hey, you can make reseaonable posts! You should try that more often :Smile-_tongue:

And I agree, that sounds interesting, if done right. If WG would finaly decided, that the testserver is not a "see 1 week earlier, what trainwreck we have prepared for the live server" but actually a real testing environment - we could try stuff like that out there.

 

4 minutes ago, MortenTardo said:

Also the plane survivability should be a bit higher or the hangar size needs to be improved.

 

I think, the hanger should be adressed. Because if we are talking about "fun", then it makes more sense letting people actually shoot down planes instead of having the feeling of fighting against "asbestos the invincible airmonster". But is also more of a problem for the lower tier CVs. But for some reason, WG feels they are bound to somewhat realistic numbers in that department, while everything would be easier, if we could just leave the realism card out there - as they do in many other parts of the game.

 

7 minutes ago, MortenTardo said:

Like i have said many times already, rocket planes are the ones that harass DD's the most. That seems to be something most agree on. Easy fix for WG is to give a 2 minute delay before you can launch rocket planes. From the start of the game and after they land. That will give the CV 10 rocket plane launches throughout a full game. Seems fair enough to me.

 

IMO - we also need to disable planes from beeing lauched right at the match start. Yeye I know, WG wants more action blabla, but my DD doesnt spawn 7 km next to a BB and neither are my torps ready at the start of the round. So the question remains: why WG feels, the CV players needs to jump right into the action, while everyone else is pretty much driving into position for the first minutes? Nothing wrong in giving CVs the same delay. The innitial spotting is what screws with peoples brains right now.

14 minutes ago, MortenTardo said:

First of all. Players have to ask them self what they think the role of the CV is supposed to be. 

At the moment players are all over the place. "CV's should be support only," "CV's should only spot with almost no dmg output", "BB counter," "DD counter", "removed from the game" (which is just dumb. Naval game without CV's is ridiculous) and some even think that "CV's just be there to look pretty. Not being able to strike anything". 

 

If the last days have shown anything, that this: we wont find a consensus on that. When talking about counters, we should think about, how counters look at other occasions in the game and why they are (mostly accepted). Say DDs vs. BBs. DDs have the stealth, speed and the strong weapon. But that weapon has a long reload to make up for that. BBs vs. Cruisers: BBs have the strong weapon again with the long reload, Cruisers the stealth (well, often) and the speed. Now when you apply, f.e. CV vs DD : CV has speed, the stealth is pretty much given by the way the CV engages and has the ability to spot you and it has the fast reload. DD has.... ? (with the current few exeptions of Kidd+some T10 DDs) nothing. So thats not right. Maybe the entire concept of giving CVs the ability to attack multiple times with one squad is wrong. Maybe its also wrong that there is no cooldown once I used one specific squad. THAT would have been a counter to F-spam aswell. You used F for your TBs? cooldown, use something else.

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4 minutes ago, CptBarney said:

i see what you mean but good luck when your torps get spotted ten years in advance by dem CV bois at the back.

CV's cant spot DD torps. That is part of the CV rework. 

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5 minutes ago, MortenTardo said:

CV's cant spot DD torps. That is part of the CV rework. 

oh right thats nice too know im assuming this applies to non cv aircraft as well.

 

i think cv spotting could do with some tonning down i have no clue how to go about it though.

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1 minute ago, CptBarney said:

oh right thats nice too know im assuming this applies to non cv aircraft as well.

 

Yes it does.

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4 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

If the last days have shown anything, that this: we wont find a consensus on that. When talking about counters, we should think about, how counters look at other occasions in the game and why they are (mostly accepted). Say DDs vs. BBs. DDs have the stealth, speed and the strong weapon. But that weapon has a long reload to make up for that. BBs vs. Cruisers: BBs have the strong weapon again with the long reload, Cruisers the stealth (well, often) and the speed. Now when you apply, f.e. CV vs DD : CV has speed, the stealth is pretty much given by the way the CV engages and has the ability to spot you and it has the fast reload. DD has.... ? (with the current few exeptions of Kidd+some T10 DDs) nothing. So thats not right. Maybe the entire concept of giving CVs the ability to attack multiple times with one squad is wrong. Maybe its also wrong that there is no cooldown once I used one specific squad. THAT would have been a counter to F-spam aswell. You used F for your TBs? cooldown, use something else.

 

You are talking about CV's countering DD's am i correct? Not countering each other.

At the moment you can basically only strike once anyways(T8 and T10 atleast), but you cant delay the planes from taking off AND only having one strike per squadron. That makes it horrible to play CV's. That will make you sit and wait most of the game. Don't like that one. Rather have squishy planes with one strike and they reload as they do now. Otherwise the dpm will be almost equal to zero. 

 

 

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