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CCRogerwilco

The new AA is boring

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I think the AA mechanics will get a lot of buffs and nerfs over the next weeks and months, as WG tries to balance things.

So this point isn't about balance, it's about fun.

 

I used to have fun trying to counter attacking planes. There used to be an active element in the fight between you and the CV player.

 

Now nearly all choices get made in port with the modules and captain skills.

The only active part is the sector mechanic, and that takes 12 seconds unless you do a really heavy investment.

The sector mechanic doesn't offer the precision or speed to feel like an active element of game play.

It does not feel very impactful either. I played a lot of games in my Kii yesterday, with an AA build. I got attacked my T6, T8 and T10 carriers.

They were all able to get their attacks off, losing a few planes here and there, even when flying through my re-enforced sector.

I didn't have the impression that it made a difference to me or the CV players.

 

It doesn't feel like I'm playing against the CV player. It feels like we're both playing against the Random Number Generator.

 

Before patch 0.8.0 it was fun trying to defend against a CV attacking you. Now I just shrug and carry on with engaging the surface ships, dodging a few torps that they drop.

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i did prefer it where i could click on the planes to concentrate on that squadron and had the bonuses from my captain for doing so..

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What exactly was more active with the old AA-mechanic? Selecting the plane you want to focus? Because that was about the only activity you had. Now you have sector reinforcement.

 

And why do you think this new one is more RNG? Before, planes didnt have a health pool, and sometimes you´d drop 3 in 2 sec, while on other occasions ,the same engagement yielded 0 plane kills in 15 seconds. Everything about the old mechanic was RNG. And it was so for both the CV and the player, that gets attacked.

 

Also - AA skills of the captains and modules were much stronger as they are now ? Before, you could buff your AA range ro create huge no fly zones. You cant buff range anymore.

 

I can understand a lot of criticism against the CV-rework, but how the AA-mechanics and the AA-skills/modules have been changed is actually a really good thing. Its better in terms of visuals, balance, has reduced RNG and gives a better feedback to both the CV and the player, that is defending.

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3 minutes ago, CCRogerwilco said:

It doesn't feel like I'm playing against the CV player. It feels like we're both playing against the Random Number Generator.

 

Huh?! Old RTS CV mechanic was only about RNG. If you shot down planes before, wasnt decided by anything else than the calculation between DPS <-> plane HP and an RNG roll.

New CV players have to manually avoid your flak bursts, so they dont die instantly. So in the end, against a skilled CV player, it mostly matters how much continous DPS your ship has. Against bad CV players, it mostly matters how many flakbursts your ship can pump out :cap_haloween:

 

And i fail to see, how previous AA made you participate more against planes? Ctrl+Click once in a while wasnt too exciting either imo.

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before, it was about RNG, heavily affected by your ship and build, somewhat affected by the CV.

 

Now, it's all about the CV and how good he is (at dodging), minimally affected by RNG and your ship and build.

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26 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

And i fail to see, how previous AA made you participate more against planes? Ctrl+Click once in a while wasnt too exciting either imo.

It felt like you were doing something at the time you were being attacked, not setting something up in advance. The new AA definitely feels more passive to the defending player, and that needs to be resolved. WGs current approach to CV damage - nerfing it so that players can tank CV attacks - isn't ever going to balance properly and makes for an unsatisfactory game experience. Ditto their AA model. 

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33 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

And i fail to see, how previous AA made you participate more against planes? Ctrl+Click once in a while wasnt too exciting either imo.

The Ctrl-Click and the manoeuvring against multiple incoming squadrons felt a lot more active to me.

 

Now I see one squadron come in. Either my sector is already on that side, or it's too late do react.

The CV player doesn't seem to care what side my sector is on any way, most of their attacks flew right through it.

I would just keep my re-enforced sector in the general direction of the enemy, and that's where the CV would attack from all the time as well.

 

There is an active part on the side of the CV, in dodging the flak bursts, but except for manoeuvring a bit to avoid some torps, I didn't feel engaged.

Planes show up and do a few attacks. The damage they do for bombs and rockets is mostly RNG, torps are predictable and a single spread of at most 4 at a time.

 

Sure, the underlying mechanics have changed, but how many planes I shot down still felt just as RNG as before. T6/8/10 carrier didn't seem to make a meaningful difference.

 

I understand how the mechanics work. I am giving some feedback on how it felt to me. The number of actions I could do, each second of game play, to meaningfully counter the CV player, seems to be much lower. And the CV players mostly seemed to do straight attack runs in the shortest line from their position to mine.

 

With the much smaller AA bubble, the tactical positioning in relation to other ships matters a lot less as well.

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2 minutes ago, CCRogerwilco said:

Now I see one squadron come in. Either my sector is already on that side, or it's too late do react.

The CV player doesn't seem to care what side my sector is on any way, most of their attacks flew right through it.

I would just keep my re-enforced sector in the general direction of the enemy, and that's where the CV would attack from all the time as well.

 

There is an active part on the side of the CV, in dodging the flak bursts, but except for manoeuvring a bit to avoid some torps, I didn't feel engaged.

Planes show up and do a few attacks. The damage they do for bombs and rockets is mostly RNG, torps are predictable and a single spread of at most 4 at a time.

 

Sure, the underlying mechanics have changed, but how many planes I shot down still felt just as RNG as before. T6/8/10 carrier didn't seem to make a meaningful difference.

 

I understand how the mechanics work. I am giving some feedback on how it felt to me. The number of actions I could do, each second of game play, to meaningfully counter the CV player, seems to be much lower. And the CV players mostly seemed to do straight attack runs in the shortest line from their position to mine.

 

Well, then you are talking more about how CVs attack with the rework, not the AA itself. Because doding against a crossdrop vs watching how one squadron attacks you a couple of times in a row isnt about AA but rather about how the CVs work. Now I can understand what you are talking about but maybe you should change the headline, because you really dont talk about the AA ;)

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14 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

Well, then you are talking more about how CVs attack with the rework, not the AA itself. Because doding against a crossdrop vs watching how one squadron attacks you a couple of times in a row isnt about AA but rather about how the CVs work. Now I can understand what you are talking about but maybe you should change the headline, because you really dont talk about the AA ;)

In the old mechanics I had choices with my AA. I could focus one squadron, hoping to kill it before it could drop against me, and then try to dodge the others.

I mean AA in a bit more general sense, as the CV countering gameplay, where the actual things that the AA on my ship does is a crucial part of the experience.

 

Even in games with multiple CVs attacking me at the same time, I no longer have any meaningful choices in how to control my AA to be most effective in combination with my positioning.

 

Yes, I feel like I'm watching. Like I'm the spectator instead of actively engaging in a meaningful way. It doesn't feel like I'm actively fighting the CV player. It feels like a bot could have done just as well.

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Well Mr Conway seems to have explained WG doesn't want you distracted from the sea battle too much. I already lost ships to incoming enemy ship fire fiddeling with the sectors so he/they may very well have a point.

 

Then again i enjoyed the priority AA clicking on a target too, so you could tell your AA what was the most dangerous target. But the new system kills everything simultaniously so you no longer have to do that. If you think of it, aircraft are more present now as in a single squadron attack they are coming around after an attack  run for another run, and another run and maybe another. If you have full attention to them all the time during these far longer multiple attacks then previously the single powerfull attack run you cannot fight other ships effectively anymore. So it is probably by well thought design you dont have to pay too much attention to them, as defence is (almost) automatic.

 

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1 hour ago, Tyrendian89 said:

before, it was about RNG, heavily affected by your ship and build, somewhat affected by the CV.

 

Now, it's all about the CV and how good he is (at dodging), minimally affected by RNG and your ship and build.

Currently dodging makes little difference, mid-range continuous AA dps is so high the CV will lose planes regardless most of the time. unless its a non AA spec DD or something with naturally poor AA. 

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AA is one thing where the game has been made more interesting by this update. The sector mechanic actually requires some awareness and a bit of foresight, not just ctrl+click the torp bombers. It is slightly awkward though, there should be a more elegant way to switch sectors. Also, not every ship has 12s sector switching. That's just BBs without MFC. For DDs it's 4/5 seconds and much more powerful.

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7 minutes ago, MoveZig said:

AA is one thing where the game has been made more interesting by this update. The sector mechanic actually requires some awareness and a bit of foresight, not just ctrl+click the torp bombers. It is slightly awkward though, there should be a more elegant way to switch sectors. Also, not every ship has 12s sector switching. That's just BBs without MFC. For DDs it's 4/5 seconds and much more powerful.

 

Still clicking on the most dangerous squadrons giving highest priority to fire upon by AA groups on the ship has the most resemblance with AA firecontrol all ships had.

 

Didn't you see the japanse guy in command of an AA cannon with the stick pointing at prio targets in the Yamato movie ? He "clicked" a prio target for his weapon crew too :-))))))

 

The point of WG is AA firecontrol and all their men didn't have to fight surface targets at the same time. We do.

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3 hours ago, ForlornSailor said:

What exactly was more active with the old AA-mechanic? Selecting the plane you want to focus? Because that was about the only activity you had. Now you have sector reinforcement.

The old manual AA mechanic was intended for dealing with multiple squadrons of aircraft. The way RTS carriers attacked was to send multiple waves - torpedo bombers to force you to use damage control, followed by dive bombers to set you on fire, maybe even fighters to take out your catapult fighters before the attack. Effective AA defense meant having to switch between multiple targets. This was especially apparent in operations, where bot CVs would send squadrons at you one at a time, so you'd have to select each one in turn. If you were trying to fight surface ships at the same time, you could get simply overloaded. For example in the last stage of the Dunkirk operation, dealing with multiple waves of bombers and torpedo boats from all directions, I could never keep the closest bomber consistently focused.

 

By comparison, with new CVs you could have simply clicked on the torpedo bombers once and then forgotten about them for the rest of the game. That mechanic had to change. Whether the sector system is a good change is another matter, but the old system would not have worked any more.

 

What bothers me about the new manual AA most is that the mechanic no longer matches manual secondary use. That could use some work too, perhaps having similar sectors for secondaries with increased accuracy.

 

3 hours ago, ForlornSailor said:

You can't buff range anymore.

You don't need to. I don't know whether it was part of the rework or the hotfix, but the old AFT is now standard on all ships. Almost anyway. As far as I can tell, all ships have their AA ranges buffed by 16%, no skills necessary.

 

3 hours ago, ForlornSailor said:

It's better in terms of visuals, balance, has reduced RNG and gives a better feedback to both the CV and the player, that is defending.

I disagree on the feedback part. Telling when the defender is using defensive AA is still way harder than it was with RTS carriers.

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We should have BOTH... That would be the best..

 

Without ctrl+click and without sector, you should have poor AA

with sector OR click you should have medium

with both you should have strong.

 

For example clicking could bring additional +40% strength to continuous AND explosions power for that specific fleet... if they do this, they can DROP total continuous damage of all ships to reasonable levels, and make it so that by actively playing you can make it strong.

 

This way skill would actually matter and if you FOCUS on AA role, you can be effective in it.

ALSO, both of these reinforcements SHOULD be visible to carrier player, so that he can make active decision what target to attack. Avoid ones with BOTH reinforcements active and go for the ones without active reinforcement.

 

I know this makes it very skill based AA power, but that is what it should be. If you want to be efffective AA ship, you should work for it and commit to that role. Same with Carrier. you should carefully select your targets based on actual AA strengths, not just 100% randomly based on what sort of ships you see.

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10 minutes ago, Kenliero said:

We should have BOTH... That would be the best..

 

Without ctrl+click and without sector, you should have poor AA

with sector OR click you should have medium

with both you should have strong.

 

For example clicking could bring additional +40% strength to continuous AND explosions power for that specific fleet... if they do this, they can DROP total continuous damage of all ships to reasonable levels, and make it so that by actively playing you can make it strong.

 

No you should not have both. You are almost always only going to be attacked by a single squad, so this mechanic boils down to having the bonus constantly without regard for the target and is thus completely pointless.

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14 minutes ago, MadnerKami said:

 

No you should not have both. You are almost always only going to be attacked by a single squad, so this mechanic boils down to having the bonus constantly without regard for the target and is thus completely pointless.

No. It would make you click it. This promotes active AA playing, as you would have to keep focus on changing reinforcements and also clicking closing targets. you completely missed the point.

 

it is NOT about making AA stronger. WG can decrease AA for example by 40% and then make clicking increase it the same 40%, which does not effect how powerful AA is, it just makes it so that player has to actively work for it.

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19 minutes ago, Kenliero said:

No. It would make you click it.

How? In the old system, once you focused something, it stayed focused forever unless you disabled your AA. Aircraft could be shot down or return to the carrier, and the next time they took off they would remain focused.

 

With the new carriers, since they only have three squadrons, you would only need to focus a squadron once, and it would stay focused for the entire game, making it rather pointless.

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both old and new AA is boring - its passive feature, similar to secondaries.

but that does not stop CV haters to ask for "CV immunity" on AA ship...pressing P is too hard.

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7 minutes ago, Rosletyne said:

How? In the old system, once you focused something, it stayed focused forever unless you disabled your AA. Aircraft could be shot down or return to the carrier, and the next time they took off they would remain focused.

 

With the new carriers, since they only have three squadrons, you would only need to focus a squadron once, and it would stay focused for the entire game, making it rather pointless.

It wouldn't have to be focused all than time. They could put a CD in it, like keep it focused for one minute, then wear out. The next time their fleet comes at you, you need to be ready to click it before it attacks, and also make sure your reinforcement is active on that side. This would make it active AA play, even though simple, but much more active than what it is now. Currently you don't do anything and you still shread planes.

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50 minutes ago, Rosletyne said:

I disagree on the feedback part. Telling when the defender is using defensive AA is still way harder than it was with RTS carriers.

 

So before you could tell when and if your planes were going to die? Nope. Now you can.

 

50 minutes ago, Rosletyne said:

The old manual AA mechanic was intended for dealing with multiple squadrons of aircraft. The way RTS carriers attacked was to send multiple waves - torpedo bombers to force you to use damage control, followed by dive bombers to set you on fire, maybe even fighters to take out your catapult fighters before the attack. Effective AA defense meant having to switch between multiple targets.

 

Actually: The reason why you cant click anymore, is because of the non-overlapping auras. So right now the AA can shoot up to 3 targets with full AA on each of them, if they are all in different auras.

 

52 minutes ago, Rosletyne said:

This was especially apparent in operations, where bot CVs would send squadrons at you one at a time, so you'd have to select each one in turn. If you were trying to fight surface ships at the same time, you could get simply overloaded. For example in the last stage of the Dunkirk operation, dealing with multiple waves of bombers and torpedo boats from all directions, I could never keep the closest bomber consistently focused. 

 

That was easy...

 

26 minutes ago, Kenliero said:

No. It would make you click it. This promotes active AA playing

 

You cant really think that. The old AA was around for years and huge part of the playerbase never focused tagets manualy - even when it made the AA a lot stronger. So those people wont use the new system.

 

27 minutes ago, Kenliero said:

it is NOT about making AA stronger. WG can decrease AA for example by 40% and then make clicking increase it the same 40%, which does not effect how powerful AA is, it just makes it so that player has to actively work for it.

 

Its obvious, WG doesnt want that. More differences in AA = harder to balance. I wrote this about 3-man-CV-divis before. If you check the goals of WG, that they have with the rework, its clear, they want to go for a balanced AA, that you can not influence as much as before anymore.

 

3 hours ago, CCRogerwilco said:

In the old mechanics I had choices with my AA. I could focus one squadron, hoping to kill it before it could drop against me, and then try to dodge the others.

I mean AA in a bit more general sense, as the CV countering gameplay, where the actual things that the AA on my ship does is a crucial part of the experience.

 

Even in games with multiple CVs attacking me at the same time, I no longer have any meaningful choices in how to control my AA to be most effective in combination with my positioning.

 

Yes, I feel like I'm watching. Like I'm the spectator instead of actively engaging in a meaningful way. It doesn't feel like I'm actively fighting the CV player. It feels like a bot could have done just as well.

 

Yea, that I totaly agree with. It has removed the skill from the one, that is been attacked. Its just not really about the AA, its about the interaction between CVs and the defender ;) But ill get what you meant now.

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6 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

So before you could tell when and if your planes were going to die? Nope. Now you can.

What the hell are you talking about? With RTS CVs, your aiming indicator would tell you whether you were flying within defensive AA with absolute clarity. By comparison, the difference in orange and reddish flak bursts is rather less clear.

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Something is clearly broken with flak bursts if a DD can kill 50 planes spread among a T6 and T8 CV... 1st 2nd and 3rd plane full squads wiped out on run in... using WSAD at all times just watched planes melt time after time... gave up went hunting a loyang instead not such a problem with that....

 

shot-19_02_10_17_10.38-0498.thumb.jpg.384b935812baf6437dcafb412c5c6279.jpg

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2 minutes ago, cherry2blost said:

Something is clearly broken with flak bursts if a DD can kill 50 planes spread among a T6 and T8 CV...

 

You are T6, he is T8. Thats the answer. You want to know how a T6 DD feels against a T8 CV? Its equally broken.

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One game with Prinz Eugen that had BFT and DFAA mod1. vs Tier X CV. I had around 15 drops in that game. 5 planes I dropped from one attack run, I had plenty left on my DFAA after every single plane was shot down. CV returned right after the DFAA ran out. Extending the DFAA active time seems to be a bad idea.

 

On another game I played with a friend. He had the Tirpitz with BFT and AFT. I had the Richelieu with no AA related skills. We used the sectors in a 2v2 CV game with VIII CVs. Both of us had 20 drops. 

 

Ive played multiple games with Kii that has every AA-skill and mod that ship can mount. Every time I've been against tier X CVs. No matter how concentrated the plane attacks have been I usually get 1-5 drops per game......with "AA-gimmick BB".

 

If they meant to bring more diversity of gameplay into this, I think it has failed at least in my case. Ive dropped all my AA-mods and replaced them with Aiming System mods or 2ndary mod 2 on american BBs.

 

As an attachment file here are some of Kiis AA stats on different setups. Since flak is random and avoidable is it really worth 11 points to sink into AA skills?

 

I hope future hotfixes and patches bring more balance to AA systems and CV gameplay. I'd hope some skill would still boost the AA range or raise the hit probability maybe?

 

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