Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
You need to play a total of 50 battles to post in this section.
aN00Bis_6VI6

Jean Bart: Armour Buff

32 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

Players
5 posts
2,301 battles

Granted, I have not had many (no more than 10) games in the Jean Bart, but after recommendation going for it instead of Bourgogne, I have found her to be a pleasant ship but with a few glaring issues, but the most damning is not the dispersion of her guns though the inconsistency can be very frustrating from time to time. It his her Armour.

 

In the current meta of HE "usage", her 32mm plating leaves her extremely vulnerable to HE spam which is becoming even more rife then ever, but the vulnerability goes so far as to even having battleships at any angle firing HE, sometimes irrespective of being broadside, this means her survivability, tied with her low HP means she struggles to last for very long.

 

I will grant as stated above that I am still learning her nuances that make her an apparently great ship, and her money making potential is also a very delicious aspect. So if any one objects to my claim, I am more than happy to receive feedback and advice on how to play her better. And I do see her potential, but she is dependent on good circumstances which are very few and far between. I believe (currently) that to mitigate this issue she needs a minor armour buff to reduce the HE problem, enough to prevent full penetrations but not enough to block IFHE (her bow armour is good enough for tanking AP I find so thats not an issue). But then again she might need it buffed to block IFHE, I do not know how commonly used it is as I am not a true cruiser player and the cruisers I do have do not have IFHE, I find there is no need but that is me.

 

What is the consensus on this? I have heard in the past of her good performance but that was in relation with her guns which were nerfed? I most likely am wrong, but she just cannot survive very well (or consistently) as it currently stands, and on top she gets pulled into T10 battles which has the almighty HE spammer: Conqueror (guilty pleasure with the 17.9inchers, admittedly). I feel she needs this buff bad, or in time she might not be a favorable ship at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[NWP]
Players
5,911 posts
7,190 battles

The problem is, it cant work what you want to achieve.

JB has 32mm bow armor. Standard 203mm HE shells (like Buffalo f.e.) can penetrate 33mm of armor. 152mm HE shells (like Seattle) can penetrate 24mm of armor. With IFHE it goes up to 33mm aswell. So if you would buff the Armor above 32mm, not only would it negate lowcaliber IFHE, but also 203mm Cruiser HE.

And it doesnt stop there: You would also be immune to Musashi/Yamato overmatch, because the 32mm is just the threshold they can overmatch.

 

To stop BB HE from working, you would need to be a fortress... Conqueror HE can penetrate 104mm or armor with the smaller guns, if you would take the bigger ones, they could penetrate 113mm of armor!

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
4,141 posts
7,641 battles

As Seiranko already said: The ship is balanced around that armor. It already has the speed, a fast reload and the reload booster.

21 minutes ago, aN00Bis_6VI6 said:

And I do see her potential, but she is dependent on good circumstances which are very few and far between.

On the contrary, JB can influence many situations quite heavily. Unlike other BBs, she can push in quick and punish DDs and Cruisers faster than any other BB could. Thats her thing. You need to be able to identify situations, where you can benefit, and make use of them. She is not like, say a Yamato, that will anker at a certain position and scare people with the sheer presence. It also might be, that the playstyle of JB is not what you are looking for. In that case, you might try another line of BBs, like the IJN.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
2,830 posts
17,047 battles
46 minutes ago, aN00Bis_6VI6 said:

It his her Armour.

 

let me guess youre one of the noobs playing her as a bow in tank arent you?

  • Cool 2
  • Funny 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[RL7S]
Players
220 posts
2,953 battles
22 minutes ago, The_Finnster said:

Do not tank.

Move and flank.

This.

 

I don’t have a Jean Bart but I have a Musashi and every Jean Bart that tried to fight head on died horribly.

 

Keep moving, a stationary Jean Bart is a dead Jean Bart.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[BHSFL]
[BHSFL]
Players
1,925 posts
52 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

You need to be able to identify situations, where you can benefit, and make use of them.

 

I have a few friends that have tried WOWS too but stopped playing as they don't seem to be able to master this. The take a cruiser and lob shells at BB and get upset they sink when it returns fire. They hate playing as DD as they do not understand stealth tactics, or investing specific captain points ( they have ofc low rank captains that limit them a lot ) or upgrades into the right kind of capabilities. And the previous RTS CV play ? Didnt even look at it again before the rework after just 1 match.

 

In other words : this game is pretty complicated for a newcomer that want to see if it is any fun, and by that many will stop playing at reaching the tiers where it becomes obvious you cannot lob shells at anyone, or rush up and fire you torpedo's.

 

I don't know if that is natural to any game and there are enough players that do go through the learning curve for WG not to care, but else they should make certain tutorials or even trails mandatory so everyone is at least knowledgable about important game aspects. Right now any newcomer actually learns the game the "wrong way," as at low tiers almost everyone lobs shells at each other, everyone starts with cruisers,  and real differences in power and operation between cruisers and battleships ( which reoad times just "suck" ) some tiers later are not as obvious as later on. Learning it "the right way" ins't a natural proces for many, they just quit if their "ship sucks"

 

Every ships has it's own natural targets. It's even more complicted as cruiser hunting battlecruisers are ""battleships"" in this game, but if you do know what they did IRL and why they were designed that way  you will notice it works here too. But this is way too complicated for a lot of newcomers, or players in general. They do not even care about history per se. So WG could contemplate about some mechanism they learn what they need to know to be succesful in some way they cannot avoid, or do not see ( as video's in the game launcher )

 

Or even describe in the tooltip or ships information what this ships natural targets are ( IRL were perhaps )  and what ammo is advised to fire on them ! Taken further, maybe advise what type enemies to avoid, and what to do in self defence if you have no choice or what to do if there arent any other targets left.....and ofcourse how to support your team effectively. Knowing this better would wildly improve their satisfaction at playing the game. Our game to without doubt.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
1,768 posts
4,615 battles
8 minutes ago, Alex_Connor said:

This.

 

I don’t have a Jean Bart but I have a Musashi and every Jean Bart that tried to fight head on died horribly.

 

Keep moving, a stationary Jean Bart is a dead Jean Bart.

Interesting, is the the gameplay to use with The Dunkerque too, hard to master without showing your full hull as Broadside at some point, my trouble is I always push too far to hard, not used to hanging back.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[BHSFL]
[BHSFL]
Players
1,925 posts
26 minutes ago, NoobySkooby said:

Interesting, is the the gameplay to use with The Dunkerque too, hard to master without showing your full hull as Broadside at some point, my trouble is I always push too far to hard, not used to hanging back.

 

Still that is often the thing to do with front turret oriented BB. They are basicly the same as tank destroyers, long range, rediculous firepower and a lot of front armour. ( or angled armour so most bounces off it )

 

Pushing will only acomplish you being flanked, citadelled and sunk. Just like said tank destroyers become weak if used for offence. Should leave pushing to others, or only push if the flanks are secure enough. I have lost all respect for the Yamato as a BB as i citalelled so many so many times....even in a row. Only happens ofcourse if they show their broadside or being flanked.

 

 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[SONLY]
Beta Tester
35 posts
6,889 battles

Jean bart doesn't need anything, its a really strong ship already. As mentioned above, the playstyle is simply very different from the other BB lines. You have speed boost and reload booster for a reason... :)  

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
5 posts
2,301 battles

I would not call myself a noob so much (though it is in my name lol XD), I have completed the BB lines of the Brits, Japs and Germans, and each of them I have had fun and done well, especially in the Brits, I guess its just gonna have to take some time to learn her as I said. Each line has their nuances, and I am still learning the French line, but to me she seemed extremely vulnerable to HE, I have just played ranked battles and shes doing fairly well there, though of course fewer numbers to worry about and a whole map to move around. So, yeah.

 

Thanks for replying, all of you. Now to learn her better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
4,141 posts
7,641 battles
1 hour ago, Beastofwar said:

I have a few friends that have tried WOWS too but stopped playing as they don't seem to be able to master this. The take a cruiser and lob shells at BB and get upset they sink when it returns fire. They hate playing as DD as they do not understand stealth tactics, or investing specific captain points ( they have ofc low rank captains that limit them a lot ) or upgrades into the right kind of capabilities. And the previous RTS CV play ? Didnt even look at it again before the rework after just 1 match.

 

In other words : this game is pretty complicated for a newcomer that want to see if it is any fun, and by that many will stop playing at reaching the tiers where it becomes obvious you cannot lob shells at anyone, or rush up and fire you torpedo's.

 

I don't know if that is natural to any game and there are enough players that do go through the learning curve for WG not to care, but else they should make certain tutorials or even trails mandatory so everyone is at least knowledgable about important game aspects. Right now any newcomer actually learns the game the "wrong way," as at low tiers almost everyone lobs shells at each other, everyone starts with cruisers,  and real differences in power and operation between cruisers and battleships ( which reoad times just "suck" ) some tiers later are not as obvious as later on. Learning it "the right way" ins't a natural proces for many, they just quit if their "ship sucks"

 

Every ships has it's own natural targets. It's even more complicted as cruiser hunting battlecruisers are ""battleships"" in this game, but if you do know what they did IRL and why they were designed that way  you will notice it works here too. But this is way too complicated for a lot of newcomers, or players in general. They do not even care about history per se. So WG could contemplate about some mechanism they learn what they need to know to be succesful in some way they cannot avoid, or do not see ( as video's in the game launcher )

 

Or even describe in the tooltip or ships information what this ships natural targets are ( IRL were perhaps )  and what ammo is advised to fire on them ! Taken further, maybe advise what type enemies to avoid, and what to do in self defence if you have no choice or what to do if there arent any other targets left.....and ofcourse how to support your team effectively. Knowing this better would wildly improve their satisfaction at playing the game. Our game to without doubt.

 

You have some interesting points there. I absolutly agree, that this game needs time to master, as in really master it. You can see this in the stats of the real good players, that have been aound for a long time - it took them time to get there. And I also agree with, that the game gives you a wrong picture about this. First, its f2p and second, it throws you right into action without telling you much. So youd expect a very action-heavy, not so tactical, deep gameplay. I wasnt different in that sense when I started. I pretty much thought "once you got the aiming right, you can rush and win every fight 1vs1". Yea... its not how it works. But im sure, many people do think that way. Its the reason for a lot of complaints, I beleive.

 

The game would be better off, selling and promoting itself like, say, Europa Universalis. There, the game tells you from the start "hold on buddy, stuff here is pretty complicated and it takes time to understand everything".

A first step would be tutorials, that you´d need to master. Which should be designed in a way, to really teach you some things about the game. How to shoot as a BB against other ships, how to look for tactical positions as a cruiser, how to stay stealthy as a DD, whats your job in a certain class... I cant even list all of those things, there are so many.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[RL7S]
Players
220 posts
2,953 battles
On 2/9/2019 at 1:47 PM, NoobySkooby said:

Interesting, is the the gameplay to use with The Dunkerque too, hard to master without showing your full hull as Broadside at some point, my trouble is I always push too far to hard, not used to hanging back.

Yeah, the basic battle plan in either ship should be to get up one of the flanks and punish broadsides.

 

That requires good map awareness and use of cover to protect your own flanks, don’t get caught bow in to multiple enemies because turning round is going to hurt and trying to reverse away bow in is certain death. If you aren’t sure about a push it doesn’t hurt to turn out before contact and be prepared to kite away, disengaging if needed.

 

Dunkerque and Jean Bart are pretty similar in how they should be played, they are both fast with high pen guns but don’t have overmatch against a lot of targets, not a lot of armour and should be used as flankers. Turret layout may look like it's designed to fight bow on but this is a trap, forget bow in camping, angling in and angling away while moving is the way to go.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[BUSHI]
Players
3,627 posts
18,614 battles

JB together with Musashi are over performing much in every stat in all categories from all to 5% best.

 

image.thumb.png.188b5e786b18fbd18d3a50f83255bb17.pngimage.thumb.png.95f5664f8c111838919eafdfc34e02ad.png

 

Not only JB should not have better armor then 32mm, but sigma and reload values reduced. The same concern Japanese ship.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[NWP]
Players
5,911 posts
7,190 battles
8 minutes ago, Odo_Toothless said:

JB together with Musashi are over performing in every stat in all categories from all to 5%

https://wows-numbers.com/ship/3751753552,Jean-Bart/. 

 

Not only JB should not have better armor then 32mm, but sigma and reload values reduced. The same concern Japanese ship.

 

The reload booster is which causes the issues. You can cash in much more than other BBs in case you get a broadside target (or a DD).

Musashi is just... T10 ship on T9 :cap_book:

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
421 posts
5,676 battles

Park your JB bow in aside an island (like most people do) u gotta expect HE spam and punishing shots from Yammy/Mushi 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[BHSFL]
[BHSFL]
Players
1,925 posts
3 hours ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

The game would be better off, selling and promoting itself like, say, Europa Universalis. There, the game tells you from the start "hold on buddy, stuff here is pretty complicated and it takes time to understand everything".

A first step would be tutorials, that you´d need to master. Which should be designed in a way, to really teach you some things about the game. How to shoot as a BB against other ships, how to look for tactical positions as a cruiser, how to stay stealthy as a DD, whats your job in a certain class... I cant even list all of those things, there are so many.

 

In WOW - totally unrelated i know - they put up trials you must pass before being able to enter more serious challanges that would ruiin the expereince of your teammates if noob/unkowing how to play your class would just be allowed to enter.

 

In these trials things you should know and should use are really put to the test, cannot pass it without mastering it. If you get blocked by this but want to progress, you will be willing to learn and master it. Result is a much improved experience for all.

 

Such things is ofc a decision not easily made as it can drive off customers. But customers that do not know how the game works and therefore think ""it sucks" go away too AND have adverse affect on all players.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[BABBY]
Players
437 posts
8,502 battles

I have a perfect solution, remove IFHE completely so only heavy cruisers can penetrate 32mm and actually have a role in the game. Then buff cruiser survivability (midsection armor buff to in-tier battleship plating, 25 or 32mm respectively) and bam, balanced.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[ALONE]
Players
1,417 posts
10,918 battles
5 hours ago, gopher31 said:

What the Jean bart really needs IMO is better turret armour

well, it would be fair to count damage and trigger disabling separately on both half-turrets. That is the way those French turrets were constructed: with a wall in the middle.

  • Cool 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[ADRIA]
[ADRIA]
Players
4,945 posts
7,212 battles
7 hours ago, aN00Bis_6VI6 said:

Jean Bart, but after recommendation going for it instead of Bourgogne

Because you would have enough Steel to get the Burger

And fyi - Burger has the same 32mm everywhere armour. All French t8+ BBs do.

 

32mm plating is a balancing factor on the ship. And going by statistics there is no need for a buff

 

7 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

Conqueror HE can penetrate 104mm or armor with the smaller guns, if you would take the bigger ones, they could penetrate 113mm of armor!

148mm if you join the 457 IFHE masterrace :Smile_trollface:

 

(just kidding please don't do that)

 

2 hours ago, Odo_Toothless said:

JB together with Musashi are over performing much in every stat in all categories from all to 5% best.

 

image.thumb.png.188b5e786b18fbd18d3a50f83255bb17.pngimage.thumb.png.95f5664f8c111838919eafdfc34e02ad.png

 

Not only JB should not have better armor then 32mm, but sigma and reload values reduced. The same concern Japanese ship.

Please don't use WoWS Numbers for anything more than single players stats :fish_palm:

 

A big problem is that those stats shown there are "lifetime" values meaning that ships themselves, as well as ships around them have changed and that can't be seen there. Like, look at the Izumo - these stats you have in no way represent the Izumo we have right now, not even close.

Another one is how WoWS Numbers gather their data - everything you see there comes from profiles checked on their site (so if your profile has never been opened = you are not included), and they are updated only when your page is opened (last time someone checked your profile 6 months ago? That's the freshest data they have)

 

WoWS Numbers is great for checking a single player, but terrible for overall large scale comparisons

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×