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FrankvC_Jr

Should the Graff Spee get a sigma improvement?

Should Graff Spee get 2.0 sigma?   

50 members have voted

  1. 1. Should the Spee get improved sigma value?

    • Yes. It would help with low reload and low barrel count
    • No. It’s fine as it is
    • Improve something else (say what on replies)
    • I don’t even care about Graff Spee
      0

14 comments in this topic

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Hi all.

 

The other day I played my Spee and enjoyed it as always. But the accuracy was somewhat lacking and the reload felt bad after a couple of days playing more rapid firing cruisers,  nothing estrange so far. But I wondered if a small buff to the sigma, from 1.9 to 2.0 would make the ship better. I’m not saying is a weak ship or a underpowered thing; I just thought to myself that maybe it would help deal with the poor reload and low barrel count the ship has. Plus, in a tier where IFHE melts everything it meets, it would give a nice touch for the biggest gun armed cruiser of the mid tier MM. My personal favorite idea would be the sigma change from 1’9 to 2’0 but maybe they could tune down the reload to 18 or so seconds or maybe, as a way to emphasize the “pocket BB” myth, a better plating. 

 

Thoughts?

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Graf Spee imo already is strong and works well. It is strong in general and was good in both T6 Ranked and T6 test CBs. And with that record, I honestly see no reason to buff it further.

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[BYOB]
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The only thing I would consider is a 1 km secondary range buff to mitigate it's helpless state against DDs. Even a 0,5 km buff would be great.

Otherwise, I'm with @Seiranko.

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3 minutes ago, Aragathor said:

The only thing I would consider is a 1 km secondary range buff to mitigate it's helpless state against DDs.

Otherwise, I'm with @Seiranko.

Frankly, let's assume secondary range was 5 km base. What would that change? Would you spec any dedicated Graf Spee commander for secondaries? I certainly wouldn't. Nor would I bother with secondary mod. At 5 km range, the secondaries might occasionally hit a DD, but even if these guns were actually accurate (which at T6 they'll never be, due to Manual secondaries giving a 20% bonus only), the volume of fire is not killing anything fast. You're basically looking at 4 15 cm guns and 4 10.5 cm guns that can fire per side, which is about half a PEF. Needless to say, against anything not a DD, these guns are basically even less useful. Overall, before I spend any points in secondary skills, I take 1 point for EL and call it a day.

 

So, yes, Graf Spee might have issues handling DDs, but 1 km more secondary range won't change that. Better to just handle her like a more maneuverable BB with German hydro at that point.

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3 minutes ago, Seiranko said:

Frankly, let's assume secondary range was 5 km base. What would that change? Would you spec any dedicated Graf Spee commander for secondaries? I certainly wouldn't. Nor would I bother with secondary mod. At 5 km range, the secondaries might occasionally hit a DD, but even if these guns were actually accurate (which at T6 they'll never be, due to Manual secondaries giving a 20% bonus only), the volume of fire is not killing anything fast. You're basically looking at 4 15 cm guns and 4 10.5 cm guns that can fire per side, which is about half a PEF. Needless to say, against anything not a DD, these guns are basically even less useful. Overall, before I spend any points in secondary skills, I take 1 point for EL and call it a day.

 

So, yes, Graf Spee might have issues handling DDs, but 1 km more secondary range won't change that. Better to just handle her like a more maneuverable BB with German hydro at that point.

I have quite some experience with playing T6 secondary ships. I have found that it's not the raw damage that makes a secondary build effective against DDs at that tier, it's the pressure of being forced to act under fire.

I use a secondary build on my Normandie, I have seen too many DDs turn around and run when getting under fire from the secondaries of my ship. Sure it wouldn't stop a skilled player, but those don't get caught in hydro range of the Spee in the first place.

 

Graf Spee has a lot of secondaries compared to other cruisers at tier, and not BBs which she isn't. If she is to be treated as a BB then she deserves German style secondary range.

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2 minutes ago, Aragathor said:

I have quite some experience with playing T6 secondary ships. I have found that it's not the raw damage that makes a secondary build effective against DDs at that tier, it's the pressure of being forced to act under fire.

I use a secondary build on my Normandie, I have seen too many DDs turn around and run when getting under fire from the secondaries of my ship. Sure it wouldn't stop a skilled player, but those don't get caught in hydro range of the Spee in the first place.

 

Graf Spee has a lot of secondaries compared to other cruisers at tier, and not BBs which she isn't. If she is to be treated as a BB then she deserves German style secondary range.

Intimidation works if you have a volume of fire that is intimidating. Graf Spee's volume of fire is basically comparable to Leander with a few 15 cm guns on long reload mixed in that don't hit the broad side of a barn. BBs with secondaries give pressure because they typically have so many shells they fire, but when they don't have that many, the secondaries usually tend to get ignored. Noone for example gives a crap about USN secondaries, even if they open fire and even if ships like NC have a veritable amount of them. and the few folks who lose their head in those situations are usually the ones that just shoot torps at the white line and in a prolonged gunnery contest at 7 km or lower, Graf spee handily wins. The real issue are ships like Gnevny being a pain from 11 km away, where your 1 km added range does exactly nothing.

 

Graf Spee has the secondaries it has. If I say it should be handled like a more maneuverable BB, then I am stating that as it is what Graf Spee compares best to, not what it is. You can argue it's still a cruiser and for a cruiser it has many secondaries, but you'll still find yourself basically trying your best to dodge torps and slowly picking apart DDs with your slow-firing main battery, like a BB. And German BBs also, again, have volume of fire, not just range.

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In order to make the guns not-horrible, they need more AP pen (so they overmatch 25mm) or much better HE performance. I mean damn, people complain about KGV's and PEF's guns for the lack of pen, they'd hate AGS. In it, I routinely feel worthless as I know even a bit of angling and wiggling makes the AP near-useless against most t6+ targets while the HE is an utter joke. The ship only works well vs. broadside cruisers and BBs. You don't have the pen to reliably damage things, you don't have the volume of fire to spray, you don't have rate of fire to exploit opportunities, and you need to broadside to shoot both turrets. And now you always overpen DDs as well. Something needs to be done to make up for all the shortcomings. As it is, I consider it one of the worst ships I've played along with Campeltown and Emerald.

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22 minutes ago, MoveZig said:

In order to make the guns not-horrible, they need more AP pen (so they overmatch 25mm) or much better HE performance. I mean damn, people complain about KGV's and PEF's guns for the lack of pen, they'd hate AGS. In it, I routinely feel worthless as I know even a bit of angling and wiggling makes the AP near-useless against most t6+ targets while the HE is an utter joke. The ship only works well vs. broadside cruisers and BBs. You don't have the pen to reliably damage things, you don't have the volume of fire to spray, you don't have rate of fire to exploit opportunities, and you need to broadside to shoot both turrets. And now you always overpen DDs as well. Something needs to be done to make up for all the shortcomings. As it is, I consider it one of the worst ships I've played along with Campeltown and Emerald.

The issue there is, PEF and KGV are battleships and they are expected to do BB things. Noone expects Graf Spee to be a BB, it's a cruiser. And as a cruiser, it has enough overmatch to hurt other cruisers even if they angle, if it hits the bow (only ship at T6 that can overmatch all other T6 cruisers). Broadside-on cruisers it can demolish. Play it like a T6 cruiser, like the opportunistic ship it is and if you have to go into a brawl, long-range hydro + 8 km torps is basically how you deal with enemies if you can't just delete them with heavy cits.

 

Graf Spee to me is the only T6 cruiser I'd bring to any competitive format aside from Leander and Perth. It's basically T6 Kronshtadt.

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9 minutes ago, Seiranko said:

Noone expects Graf Spee to be a BB, it's a cruiser.

 

Cruisers are supposed to be a credible threat to DDs. BBs are supposed to be able to damage cruisers pretty reliably. Spee is neither. GS is an anti-cruiser ship that is defeated by angling. And I don't think Kron has completely horrible HE for its tier like GS does.

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The number of secondary guns is the same as the Warspite, but the platform is obviously worse. The problem with Spee is that the guns have such poor consistent accuracy and even if you get the perfect shot, it can end badly, with low damage, overpens, etc. The HE itself is not bad, but the reload coupled with bad accuracy makes almost impossible to reliable hit DDs and/or set on fire BBs. The AP nerf to 283 and up was not coincidence; it was made for nerf how BBs deal with DD and I’m ok with that, but for the Spee ended up being terrible. Now what is supposed to be? Wait for the long reload and fire an average HE with bad accuracy and not even good number of barrels? I may dodge the torpedos because of hydro, but if I can’t hit him, he will continue to torp me. And my hydro doesn’t last forever. 

 

If the Spee is to act as a cruiser killer, give her accurate guns to do that. 

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2 hours ago, FrankvC_Jr said:

The HE itself is not bad

 

Well, it compares poorly to Nurnberg, which shoots over 3x as fast with 50% more guns, with over half the damage and less dispersion at slightly greater range with better fire chance overall. Spee has more pen but since Nurn can already HE-pen t10 BBs, it doesn't amount to much. It's a horrible HE shell, and it really hurts a ship that can't overmatch BBs and overpens DDs.

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I have both Graf Spee and the HSF Graf Spee still I dont want WG to start tampering with any of my premium ships in any way. I bought the Graf Spee as is and can live with its shortcomings.

Leave the premium ships alone, otherwise we will have loads of buffs and nerfs left right and center leaving us with a fleet of "Meh" premium ships

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9 hours ago, MoveZig said:

 

Cruisers are supposed to be a credible threat to DDs. BBs are supposed to be able to damage cruisers pretty reliably. Spee is neither. GS is an anti-cruiser ship that is defeated by angling. And I don't think Kron has completely horrible HE for its tier like GS does.

Not T6 cruiser has 25 mm bow. Only T8 cruisers get that. So, no, it isn't defeated by angling.

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On 2/10/2019 at 10:29 AM, MoveZig said:

In order to make the guns not-horrible, they need more AP pen (so they overmatch 25mm) or much better HE performance. I mean damn, people complain about KGV's and PEF's guns for the lack of pen, they'd hate AGS. In it, I routinely feel worthless as I know even a bit of angling and wiggling makes the AP near-useless against most t6+ targets while the HE is an utter joke. The ship only works well vs. broadside cruisers and BBs. You don't have the pen to reliably damage things, you don't have the volume of fire to spray, you don't have rate of fire to exploit opportunities, and you need to broadside to shoot both turrets. And now you always overpen DDs as well. Something needs to be done to make up for all the shortcomings. As it is, I consider it one of the worst ships I've played along with Campeltown and Emerald.

I have different taste. I just love campbel, its a seal clubber. Emerald is very soft but very dangerous in ambush. Double striked nagato and myoko when i was grinding it. Pls note that those are very rough t7 ships, emmy is t5. She is all or nothing type of ship.

For AGS, she needs not to be tempered with. She is a bc/ca hybrid.  U cant hunt dds, thats true. But u can easily defend. Hydro will let u see torps with time enough to dodge, aggressive dds u can bate to come closer, a bit more closer... Come come lill dd i cant hurt u.... A bit closer.... Oh yes i have nasty torps too, bye bye, thank u for playing.

Guns are designed for cruiser blapping, she shines there. Any tier, any nation... Make a mistake against spee and u r oneshoted. Bbs get hurt too. I only miss speed. If she was faster she would be my all time fav cruiser. I remember landing 10k salvos on tirpitz at max range. Repeatedly, until he decided to turn and run like bat from hell. Left his flank to collapse. AGS is very powerful ship at tier 6. Maybe even strongest t6 cruiser there is.

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