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W1ttbarr5

Can we get WoW to undo this last awfull upgrade before it stops people playing???

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admittedly I am not a carrier player but too many of my latest games especially with t 8 - t 10 destroyers have ended very quickly due to the presents of 2carriers . this also applies to some cruisers as well, if you cant hide or run or fight what is the point? The sheer number of planes are distracting and unless you are in a group you die almost instantly , surely this is counter to the role of destroyers/fast cruisers and there is no reason to have them if they cannot fulfill this. has anyone managed to come up with a tactic to combat this other than doing nothing till someone else has shot down all the hordes of planes? I have played over 7000 games so am not a beginner but this new upgrade is awful unless you have a carrier.

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change your playstyle, don't cap contest off the bat, play as an escort, actively change aa sectors, share your aa with nearby ships, don't be the juicy target.

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I think this is the part the players really don't get: if you stay together your AA literally adds up. Flak is spawned around the attacking planes and the the amount is based on the sum of AA strength of ships nearby. A BB, CA and DD in tandem can form a flak cloud so thick that the CV will lose its whole squadron trying to get close.


Midway is literally useless against teams that actually stick together. Haku at least has long range torps, but those can be avoided if it launches them outside of AA range.

DDs are getting destroyed because they charge for the cap points alone. A lone ship regardless of class is *the perfect situation* for a CV. But have a cruiser nearby and it changes everything. Have  2 and you're invulnerable.

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9 minutes ago, SchnauzerFaust said:

DDs are getting destroyed because they charge for the cap points alone.

This is supposed to be a DD's job; also, you wouldn't believe the amount of whining you get if you don't do it too (regardless of how suicidal it is, but that's not a new thing!)...

 

The entire reason I used to play DDs more than the other classes is that they're *meant* to go off alone; why bother having stealth otherwise? As it is, Kii and Kagero are now effectively interchangeable, only one gets massive amounts of armour, bigger guns, and semi-respectable AA.

 

If I wanted to camp, and generally stay in a semi-mobile blob, I would play BBs!

 

That said, we're only a week into the rework, and it seems to be clearly understood that most DDs are currently largely unplayable (compared to the other classes) in the presence of CVs, so I'm not too pessimistic about the longer-term future of the class - it'll just need some further tweaking. A good start might be the removal of aircraft Sixth Sense, along with a hard cap of one CV per game.

 

The best you can hope for if you want to follow the advice of the unhelpful Bear Grylls memes is to go with the 'AA Ambush' DD approach, which is fun, but much less use to your team than playing properly would have been, or just play another class (or, better, just hide in Ranked until DDs become relevant again).

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Update is a fine idea, balance is screwed, which is what needs fixing. I also think 2 CVs over T6 is not going to work

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15 minutes ago, Verblonde said:

This is supposed to be a DD's job; also, you wouldn't believe the amount of whining you get if you don't do it too (regardless of how suicidal it is, but that's not a new thing!)...

 

The entire reason I used to play DDs more than the other classes is that they're *meant* to go off alone; why bother having stealth otherwise? As it is, Kii and Kagero are now effectively interchangeable, only one gets massive amounts of armour, bigger guns, and semi-respectable AA.

 

 

Kagero spotted from air at 3.1km and AA that reaches out to 1.9, being spotted is a choice still, playing mine without smoke and it's just fine.

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1 minute ago, PassTheSalt said:

Kagero spotted from air at 3.1km and AA that reaches out to 1.9, being spotted is a choice still, playing mine without smoke and it's just fine.

Strikes me as a fairly poor choice, though, especially given that the planes know you're there long before they actually spot you (the whole Sixth Sense thing).

 

Besides playing AA DDs (using the term loosely) against real people, I've been trying to learn the new CVs in Coop, and the Sixth Sense cue that a DD is in the vicinity is invaluable. If SS gets removed from planes, and CVs get limited to one per side, I'll start playing my Kagero sisters again; I feel there are rather better choices in the meantime...

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3 minutes ago, Verblonde said:

Strikes me as a fairly poor choice, though, especially given that the planes know you're there long before they actually spot you (the whole Sixth Sense thing).

 

Besides playing AA DDs (using the term loosely) against real people, I've been trying to learn the new CVs in Coop, and the Sixth Sense cue that a DD is in the vicinity is invaluable. If SS gets removed from planes, and CVs get limited to one per side, I'll start playing my Kagero sisters again; I feel there are rather better choices in the meantime...

Not playing lone wolf, you need the option to turn back into friendly AA. fleet support is the role now.

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Just now, PassTheSalt said:

Not playing lone wolf, you need the option to turn back into friendly AA. fleet support is the role now.

Ah, I understand!

 

Really not my bag - I find that playstyle desperately dull most of the time, plus I can do without the salt - "wy rn't u capping?" "stupid DD" etc.

 

I really hope they do fix DDs though - I miss my IJN torp boats.

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1 hour ago, SchnauzerFaust said:

I think this is the part the players really don't get: if you stay together your AA literally adds up.

Multiple players having to gang together to form a counter to 1 other player is not a valid tactic.

 

If that other player was a DD, CL/CA or BB we would call it broken.

 

Not to mention it makes those ships a big torpedo magnet, destroys the game for dd's and CL's and is ultimately boring.

 

If the best we can hope for is a meta requiring each team to blob to counter the others cv then cv's would have to be removed or it would be night night for WoWS

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1 hour ago, Verblonde said:

Ah, I understand!

 

Really not my bag - I find that playstyle desperately dull most of the time, plus I can do without the salt - "wy rn't u capping?" "stupid DD" etc.

 

I really hope they do fix DDs though - I miss my IJN torp boats.

 

There is another option - support your DD and play super aggressive. Me and @DFens_666 supported a Kitakaze today, we just rushed with him into the cap (Minotaur /Worcester), each on one side of him. Glorious. It was a joy to see, how the CV tried to get to that DD but couldnt. After a couple of minutes the CV went "gg enjoy" in open chat.

Granted: you need cruisers with some balls and just a little brain, when playing a DD. Or you bring a Division. I got shot at from a Yamato, while moving in the cap, but hey, you see that coming and got plenty of time to dodge so...

 

17 minutes ago, TVLX said:

Multiple players having to gang together to form a counter to 1 other player is not a valid tactic.

 

If that other player was a DD, CL/CA or BB we would call it broken.

 

Not to mention it makes those ships a big torpedo magnet, destroys the game for dd's and CL's and is ultimately boring.

 

If the best we can hope for is a meta requiring each team to blob to counter the others cv then cv's would have to be removed or it would be night night for WoWS

 

Right now, its actually Ok. You dont need the entire team, 2 ~ 3 ships (talking high tiers) are enough. Thats pretty much enough to take all the objectives, if this teamplay prevails. And adding up AA is actually, what I always wanted to have in this game. It was so stupid before, like when a Minotaur was near a DM, that activated Def AA, your Mino hardly shot down any plane. Now, these two will form a much more dangerous AA-bubble. With a smaller range, since we dont have 8.2 km range anymore, which is also good. That part of the rework is actually good and deserves a thumb up.

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I'm closely following the threads here and some people keep saying us DD captains just need to adapt to the new meta and stay close to AA support. What I don't really understand - and as a noobish player I'm seriously asking for an honest answer here - is what our roles are then supposed to be now? It used to be DDs who gathered intel and and capped. Our tools were always speed and stealth. However, if stealth is just a thing of the past because those fast planes WILL spot you; and we can't cap alone and have to go together with the slower ships, making our speed worthless, why bring a DD at all? Why not bring a CA instead?

 

Yes some gun DDs with good AA can still be effective, but stealth ninjas are imo no longer viable. So my favoured IJN torpedo boats are pretty useless, correct me if I'm wrong. They just make no sense unless they can get into position without being spotted and they need to be able to operate alone. So what is the supposed new way to make those work?

 

Also, how are we now supposed to respond to trouble? I used to cross the map repeatedly from cap to cap, reinforcing flanks where needed or falling back to protect the pre 0.8 CV if they called for help, but going off alone is just so risky at the moment.

 

Again, really looking for answers how this is going to work now.

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2 minutes ago, FerrowTheFox said:

Again, really looking for answers how this is going to work now.

Short answer, for most DDs: it isn't.

 

Before we all sell our DDs however, recall that this is currently rather a WiP - although you shouldn't really, WG are basically beta (alpha?) testing on the live server, making it up as they go along.

 

I suspect that some semblance of 'normal' will be asserted in a few months (no idea what that normal meta will look like yet though).

 

In the meantime, besides playing AA DDs, Ops and Ranked are your friends (assuming available ships).

 

Alternatively, the wheeled vehicles launched in WOT yesterday (?) - I think I'll give them a try this weekend...

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2 minutes ago, FerrowTheFox said:

I'm closely following the threads here and some people keep saying us DD captains just need to adapt to the new meta and stay close to AA support. What I don't really understand - and as a noobish player I'm seriously asking for an honest answer here - is what our roles are then supposed to be now? It used to be DDs who gathered intel and and capped. Our tools were always speed and stealth. However, if stealth is just a thing of the past because those fast planes WILL spot you; and we can't cap alone and have to go together with the slower ships, making our speed worthless, why bring a DD at all? Why not bring a CA instead?

 

Yes some gun DDs with good AA can still be effective, but stealth ninjas are imo no longer viable. So my favoured IJN torpedo boats are pretty useless, correct me if I'm wrong. They just make no sense unless they can get into position without being spotted and they need to be able to operate alone. So what is the supposed new way to make those work?

 

Also, how are we now supposed to respond to trouble? I used to cross the map repeatedly from cap to cap, reinforcing flanks where needed or falling back to protect the pre 0.8 CV if they called for help, but going off alone is just so risky at the moment.

 

Again, really looking for answers how this is going to work now.

You still have most of the tool kit but you can't be caught alone, pushing is now a group effort, it's symbiotic you benefit from some AA cover, they benefit from your early spotting torps inbound.
You screen them and retreat to their bubble when needed, send torps at things ahead smoke the ships pushing behind .without your screen they can only pool up and retreat, with it they can be brave and push

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Vor 9 Minuten, PassTheSalt sagte:

You still have most of the tool kit but you can't be caught alone, pushing is now a group effort, it's symbiotic you benefit from some AA cover, they benefit from your early spotting torps inbound.
You screen them and retreat to their bubble when needed, send torps at things ahead smoke the ships pushing behind .without your screen they can only pool up and retreat, with it they can be brave and push

That is correct and that always was a viable tactic even before. Torpedo and DD screening for my allies and providing smoke is something I always did, however for torp DDs not being able to flank to the side on their own to get good torp runs diminishes our damage potential drastically. If I launch from directly in front of my supporting fleet most enemies will be angled towards us. It's perpendicular arcs that get hits and force them to make evasive maneuvers so my allied CAs and BBs can get to hit their broadsides.

 

Not disagreeing with you, just giving my thoughts in regards to tactics any my perceived problems in 0.8 :Smile_Default:

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On 2/7/2019 at 12:41 PM, FerrowTheFox said:

That is correct and that always was a viable tactic even before. Torpedo and DD screening for my allies and providing smoke is something I always did, however for torp DDs not being able to flank to the side on their own to get good torp runs diminishes our damage potential drastically. If I launch from directly in front of my supporting fleet most enemies will be angled towards us. It's perpendicular arcs that get hits and force them to make evasive maneuvers so my allied CAs and BBs can get to hit their broadsides.

 

Not disagreeing with you, just giving my thoughts in regards to tactics any my perceived problems in 0.8 :Smile_Default:

My high tier Pan Asians are managing on their own because of the smoke and the intimidating AA. IJN, as usual, are the ones who are stuck with bad choices. 

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Chil out man they are almost GONE! the new aa shreds them to pieces! but for new we must protect our premium ships because they want to nerf them because of false balance reasons! and they need to fix that 20sec gun bloom and we are back to normal! 

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This is what i have seen players in game do :

 

1- Not rush cap, be among protective allies for time being. See where a hole in the line is forming. Have captain concealment skill and skin and try sneak through. Hunt CV hiding in rear and sink it.

 

2- Set course to cap, but stay near foreward allied AA. Only cap when not contested. If contested let combined fire take out enemies in cap. If enemy disposed of be sure allied ships (AA) followed you. Cap.

2a- Use yourself as bait and lure strike aircraft into a (concealed) AA cruiser nearby.

 

3- Ask your own CV for assistance in taking the cap. He will drop fighter consumable to protect you and his own aircraft from enemy aircraft. He will (help) attack enemy DD showing up.

 

4- Ask (AA) cruiser(s) to support you. Not only will it quickly kill aircraft coming for you, but also end knife fights with enemy DD.

 

5- Be among protective allies for time being. See what enemy ships scatter where in the course of the match. Mid game sneak through area's that are empty toward intended targets. Hunt targets.

 

This in not a single player game. Ask for help, you may get it and it increases your chances quite a bit. All above may fail perticularly the sneaking through, but if succesfull juicy unsuspecting targets can be sunk. Laying torpedo walls from stealth is included in above options, as it is many DD main weapon.

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1 hour ago, FerrowTheFox said:

That is correct and that always was a viable tactic even before. Torpedo and DD screening for my allies and providing smoke is something I always did, however for torp DDs not being able to flank to the side on their own to get good torp runs diminishes our damage potential drastically. If I launch from directly in front of my supporting fleet most enemies will be angled towards us. It's perpendicular arcs that get hits and force them to make evasive maneuvers so my allied CAs and BBs can get to hit their broadsides.

 

Not disagreeing with you, just giving my thoughts in regards to tactics any my perceived problems in 0.8 :Smile_Default:

the IJN torp dd's can still flank, but you just have to wait to see where the enemy CV is concentrating, to go back to the Kagero example it's seen from the air at 3.1, that's still freaking stealthy; you do however need to wait until you feel the Red CVs are tunnel visioning 
(IJN DD main)

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4 hours ago, PassTheSalt said:

You still have most of the tool kit but you can't be caught alone, pushing is now a group effort, it's symbiotic you benefit from some AA cover, they benefit from your early spotting torps inbound.
You screen them and retreat to their bubble when needed, send torps at things ahead smoke the ships pushing behind .without your screen they can only pool up and retreat, with it they can be brave and push

>pushing is now a group effort
 

Right, because that goes so well in randoms, especially during weekend, not like we haven't seen how forcing group play by making a certain class OP ruined WoT at one point

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9 hours ago, W1ttbarr5 said:

admittedly I am not a carrier player but too many of my latest games especially with t 8 - t 10 destroyers have ended very quickly due to the presents of 2carriers . this also applies to some cruisers as well, if you cant hide or run or fight what is the point? The sheer number of planes are distracting and unless you are in a group you die almost instantly , surely this is counter to the role of destroyers/fast cruisers and there is no reason to have them if they cannot fulfill this. has anyone managed to come up with a tactic to combat this other than doing nothing till someone else has shot down all the hordes of planes? I have played over 7000 games so am not a beginner but this new upgrade is awful unless you have a carrier.

I can only share with ya my true own personal experiences: the first 2 days after 8.0 was introduced i realy struggled with some of my ships, mostly with my destroyers. So I leaned back and went figurring out how ta adapt. Yeah, there were more planes in the sky, but they needed time to attack & return to maintain attacking. Same time i realized: if a carrier focusing attacking my ship, then my teammates could perform their play & attacks succesfully (cuz, those planes can't be same time different places); realized that using smoke well timed was of some importance; I also realized that enemy destroyers faced same attacks from my teammate carriers, so, kind of challenge, who were gonna be taken out earlier my destroyer or enemy destroyers, lol. This depends party on luck and more important, it depends on planning (trying to play it smart ways, i mean). I opine that timing is important (= what to do & when)...same time teamplay (=having a good AA teamate ship relatively close, especially when 2 enemy carriers in battle) is of real importance at some stage of battle, depends circumstances (each battle ya fight is different from all battles ya played earlier).
 
I noticed some players stating: either my destroyer does this or my dd does that (= only 2 options?), but i think it's more subtle, meaning there are so many options in between (= regard them as the very many shades of grey...= extra alternative options presenting themselves, depends).
 
as from 4th day after the introduction all my ships (incl. my destroyers) perform kind of same (credits + xp) as they did prior to 8.0 introduction. And I am not kidding here, is realy true! Same time i notice many ships taking down very many planes (much more than prior to 8.0) and this brings them extra credits + xp; actually the AA of those ships (mainly cruisers and battleships) are realy doing great and spectacular to notice them punching out damage, i mean, the visuals are simply great!
 
So, yeah, i had to adapt and when i see 2x enemy carriers then I tend to stay relatively close to some AA-teammate in early stage battle (...hoping for the enemy destroyers to be taken out first, lol, gives me even better attack play later on); imho 1 enemy carrier in battle doesn't change things realy: yeah, it has unlimited supply of planes, but they cannot 2 places same time (make use of that, as a team, i guess).
 
Do I still go for the objectives as from intro 8.0? oh yes, for sure! But it is all about smart timing (= one has to adapt) + there are always the indications where the enemy carriers are positioned (roughly) so ya know where to expect most of the planes frequently; yeah, i make use of such info in my tactics.
I still do lots of cappings with my destroyers (also sometimes very early in battle, when i decide speed surprise capping, depends what i want) sometimes succesfully, sometimes I get sunk and often the in-between-succes getting away after capping (or not) with some 50% of my health. Realise also this regarding radar-ships: those enemy radar ships also can get attacked by swarms of planes (and they realize that), and this means that their former tactics of going + hiding close to cap stationary for some 10 minutes is more dangerous for them ----> gives us destroyers new possibilities.
 
2x enemy carrier makes things different (tactics for dd's) from 1x enemy carrier, but my personal opinion about that: for me both battles will be entertaining & challenging, partly because it is the question (challenge): which destroyers play it best ways and stay far longer in battle being able doing their stuff (torping + capping + shooting).
 
Last, reworked carriers means: players have to getta learn playing those carriers best ways (use of fighter zone's etc etc.) + what & when & where to send their planes: takes time to learn. Your teammate carriers in time will perform very well as defense support  against enemy plane attacks ---> teamplay.
 
So yeah, i adapted, my ships proved to be able performing same (credits + xp) as prior to update 8.0. Besides that, I personally like update 8.0: all so vibrant, great action at faster-pace, shooting more planes is fun (+ brings extra credits + xp), the graphics + sounds of the AA-guns blasting away (yours and those of yr teammates); and don't forget the fine-tunings are being worked on by WG as we speak; some other person here on forums called it (=after update 8.0) "The Theater of War", and yeah, agree with that, kind of real spectacular.
 
Fyi: i am just a somewhat average player, consumer here for fun, just like you; i myself play mostly random solo (cuz goes faster, kind of: hop-in-and-play-style) however must point out playing in div is the better way (brings ya even more credits + xp).
 
In short, imho, it is all about: adapting + good timing + make use of any mistake enemy team makes (if possible); sometimes a bit of luck is also welcome though, lol (= look at some naval warfare history: luck always played some role there also).
 
Above is just my true opinion with regard to gameplay after 8.0 update, enjoy yr battles, bye & cheers!
 
 
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WG probably haven't even thought of this or they don't care but WoWS is a mature game in terms of life cycle.

 

It's likely not going to attract many more players, even if it opens up to consoles with the CV rework. This game isn't the sort of thing the average console gamer is going to be playing. Retention should be more important than attracting new folk.

 

Such a major change when the classes are long established is going to at least annoy a lot of long time players if not far worse. Especially as it hasn't been thought through as WG are still testing things on the live server. 

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It's already driven some people away, my playtime on WoWs is almost nil now and I used to get 2 containers every day and 3 most days. I've already decided that my gaming expenditure is going to be directed elsewhere.

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I just wanna add what i wrote in another post on DD complaining about getting perma spotted since the rework, that CVs get spotted way more easily as well, so everyone is in the same boat. Its worse for CVs like the Midway since DDs are only spotted close to their AA range while CVs can be spotted by planes way beyond their AA range and cant do anything about it.

 

And we all know what happens to a CV when is spotted:Smile_trollface: 

 

WG also seem to have removed the speed control of CVs, but that is just my speculation.

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