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Vinyl_ScratchPlays

My Thoughts playing with the hotfix

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So after playing a few games in my Haku it has become a lot harder to get the big dmg number before the hotfix (200K+) Now even if I do my best I could get 150K+
So before I start talking about Haku and it's torp nerfs I'm going to go into detail with the AA changes.

AA Changes: They are good, they are not so OP that you lose everything in every strike, but not too little to lose nothing, I would say every single strike I would lose 1-3 planes so At the start of the game this is very manageble but at the end? Well you will end up with 4-6 planes per squad at best and is an effective way to nerf how powerful cvs get at the end of matches.
Now this is with all squads if you don't do a lesser version of the "Flying Shima playstyle"
Bomb planes are much more useable with their 30% dmg reduction in moving to their attack wave but I think they should have the plane heal as I see myself losing more of them then the torp planes due to how you have to play them with the Haku now.

Now lets move on to each Squad of planes with the Haku and how it's changed how you play:


Attack/Missle type pleanes: No change really, you just get less off them so your less effective but the cv-dd issue is still present (Should make it if the plane spots the ship, only you can see it not the rest of the team)


HE/AP bomb planes: These on the Haku Have become your easiest way of getting DMG with 25K dmg drop with 3 citidels getting this mutiple time is the way to go... but you will need good RNG. I still have concerns with how much HP they still lose as they have to fly in, drop and then fly away slowly all within the AA aura and it's... really hard to keep your squad, ya almsot forced to F spam but of course if you do that you are going to lose at least half of your squad so again I would suggest giving them the heal skill.

Torp planes: Oh boy here we go, the much needed nerf but it has gone way to far.
So lets paint the picture, it takes 5 seconds for you to be able to drop your trops from the start of you starting the attack run and let me tell you, if you want to stealth torp? ya better be starting this 12-14KM away from your target mate because to get a good spread you need to wait at least another 4-7 Seconds, so in total it becomes around 12-14 seconds per torp drop. and after you have dropped you now have to wait 5 Seconds again to be able to go for your next one.
As you can see, how you drop and attack with Haku Torp planes have been nerfed into the ground with a house on top, it's hard, so hard in fact you now have 1 effective way to drop, and one not very effective way and counts on the player being stupid. The First way is to do a lesser version of the Flying shima, where you start 15-16 km away from your target and drop at around 10KM away so they sail at the end of your torp distance, and drop again when they are 2-3km away from your torps activating.
The Second way is to stealth torp, but this need the person in the ship to not use his WASD hacks and sail in a easy line..
In the end, trying to get nice dmg numbers with the nerfed haku torp planes is very hard, to the point it's not worth trying so whats you next best thing? the AP boms, but you have to remember you are going to lose quite a few off them per run..

So in the hotfix, did they fix the cv issue of haku being way to OP? Yes Did they do it to the point where people will stop playing them becuase you have to pray to RNG and play stupidity? Yes
I will still play my Haku, but I know im going to be pulling my hair out for how frustrating it is going to play it, not because it has a high skill level, because it just can't be that effective, I'm I asking for the Haku to be able to do more dmg? No all of hakus dmg values are fine if you can pull it off, it's just with the new flood changes among the AA changes and the torp changes it's hard to break the 100K mark, and if i was to really go for it, it would be extreamly hard to break the 200K mark (Prop do it if ya have a dumb team that all goes to one cap and you do the flying shima, and get floods over and over again, but this shouldnt be the way to get high numbers, it should be skill)

So Enough about my rant, I just wanted to put out their my experince so far, Ill keep playing, and keep at it, I love cvs, they have their issues, one of the is still with the dds but I hope in time, and with effective communication and not "Cvs are bad, they to op pls get rid of them" we can all learn to have fun with the game.
 @MrConway I would like to hear your what you have to say on my feedback with the hotfix if possible.

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All good points honestly.. 

 

With the flood change I don't feel like the Torp changes were that needed. The time between attacks is shocking now honestly not worth playing haku after this. 

 

Far to frustrating and it's just not fun playing the RNG game with AP bombs. 

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havent tried it myself, but the good thing is that this is hardly going to be the last balancing pass they're gonna do. This pendulum between too good and nerfed to the ground was to be expected at first - we'll see what the next patches bring, and how things look and play a month or two from now. This hotfix was just that, intended to adress the most game-breaking issues, with not a lot of time to even do internal testing on how the changes would work out in practice...

(Note, the above doesnt mean I dont still think they should've waited for another month or so before releasing this in the first place - it's merely written in the context that we've got to work with now.)

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They've already responded on the NA forums that they're aware they've swung the pendulum too far in the other direction.

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1 hour ago, Vinyl_ScratchPlays said:

So after playing a few games in my Haku it has become a lot harder to get the big dmg number before the hotfix (200K+) Now even if I do my best I could get 150K+
So before I start talking about Haku and it's torp nerfs I'm going to go into detail with the AA changes.

AA Changes: They are good, they are not so OP that you lose everything in every strike, but not too little to lose nothing, I would say every single strike I would lose 1-3 planes so At the start of the game this is very manageble but at the end? Well you will end up with 4-6 planes per squad at best and is an effective way to nerf how powerful cvs get at the end of matches.
Now this is with all squads if you don't do a lesser version of the "Flying Shima playstyle"
Bomb planes are much more useable with their 30% dmg reduction in moving to their attack wave but I think they should have the plane heal as I see myself losing more of them then the torp planes due to how you have to play them with the Haku now.

Now lets move on to each Squad of planes with the Haku and how it's changed how you play:


Attack/Missle type pleanes: No change really, you just get less off them so your less effective but the cv-dd issue is still present (Should make it if the plane spots the ship, only you can see it not the rest of the team)


HE/AP bomb planes: These on the Haku Have become your easiest way of getting DMG with 25K dmg drop with 3 citidels getting this mutiple time is the way to go... but you will need good RNG. I still have concerns with how much HP they still lose as they have to fly in, drop and then fly away slowly all within the AA aura and it's... really hard to keep your squad, ya almsot forced to F spam but of course if you do that you are going to lose at least half of your squad so again I would suggest giving them the heal skill.

Torp planes: Oh boy here we go, the much needed nerf but it has gone way to far.
So lets paint the picture, it takes 5 seconds for you to be able to drop your trops from the start of you starting the attack run and let me tell you, if you want to stealth torp? ya better be starting this 12-14KM away from your target mate because to get a good spread you need to wait at least another 4-7 Seconds, so in total it becomes around 12-14 seconds per torp drop. and after you have dropped you now have to wait 5 Seconds again to be able to go for your next one.
As you can see, how you drop and attack with Haku Torp planes have been nerfed into the ground with a house on top, it's hard, so hard in fact you now have 1 effective way to drop, and one not very effective way and counts on the player being stupid. The First way is to do a lesser version of the Flying shima, where you start 15-16 km away from your target and drop at around 10KM away so they sail at the end of your torp distance, and drop again when they are 2-3km away from your torps activating.
The Second way is to stealth torp, but this need the person in the ship to not use his WASD hacks and sail in a easy line..
In the end, trying to get nice dmg numbers with the nerfed haku torp planes is very hard, to the point it's not worth trying so whats you next best thing? the AP boms, but you have to remember you are going to lose quite a few off them per run..

So in the hotfix, did they fix the cv issue of haku being way to OP? Yes Did they do it to the point where people will stop playing them becuase you have to pray to RNG and play stupidity? Yes
I will still play my Haku, but I know im going to be pulling my hair out for how frustrating it is going to play it, not because it has a high skill level, because it just can't be that effective, I'm I asking for the Haku to be able to do more dmg? No all of hakus dmg values are fine if you can pull it off, it's just with the new flood changes among the AA changes and the torp changes it's hard to break the 100K mark, and if i was to really go for it, it would be extreamly hard to break the 200K mark (Prop do it if ya have a dumb team that all goes to one cap and you do the flying shima, and get floods over and over again, but this shouldnt be the way to get high numbers, it should be skill)

So Enough about my rant, I just wanted to put out their my experince so far, Ill keep playing, and keep at it, I love cvs, they have their issues, one of the is still with the dds but I hope in time, and with effective communication and not "Cvs are bad, they to op pls get rid of them" we can all learn to have fun with the game.
 @MrConway I would like to hear your what you have to say on my feedback with the hotfix if possible.

Just do what I did... stoop playing, no other way around.

 

I was enjoying Shokaku and Lex before the 0.8.0 - they become crap, sold them, got Haku.... It was a blast, although clear that it was OP and not fun for the other ones.  Now Haku is nerfed to oblivion, why to play it? Just horrible. 

 

Just tried the safest possible tactic, attack, drop torps at 8km, turn around, do the next run...  Your planes still die, and after 8 minutes you are down to just a few planes per squad. Aftermath, some 60K of dmg, because people were camping behind an island. Dive bombers, useless if attacking groups, you get one droop, and they all die, same with rockets. No fun, no point, no skill.

 

What to do? You just stop playing. Does anyone care? No, you will get a bunch of troll memes, but in the end, who cares... If they fix it in a few months, great, if not, plenty of other games out there. I never understood people who spend hundreds of dollars on ''free too play'' games that end up costing a fortune while being frustrated with gameplay. If you are having fun, good. But to [edited] and pay at the same time? Why?

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I'm done with CVs. I had a grand time playing Ryujo during the rework, where I could manuever my torpedo bombers to avoid flak and get off torpedo strikes. Her dive bombers suck, her rocket planes suck, the only joy I had was playing the torpedo bombers and they've given them a big fat dong up the exhaust. I'm out. Glory be to all the whining, the 1 week of the carrier rework was fun while it lasted.

 

EDIT: BEWARE IF YOU'RE TRYING TO SELL BACK YOUR SHIP AFTER THIS HOT MESS OF A "FIX". All of the xp you've accumulated playing the current carriers will now go to Hashidate and the same-tier ship. YOU WILL NOT GET YOUR EXPERIENCE AS FREE XP ANYMORE!!! You'll only get the cost of the ship back and nothing else.

 

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And in "fixing" the Haku, they f***ed every other CV instead. Even playing a high health CV like GZ as top tier is a struggle. Planes just melt close to any ship except DDs. Not even going to mention overlapping auras.

When bottom tier it went from very harsh to literally unplayable.

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54 minutes ago, Tyrendian89 said:

havent tried it myself, but the good thing is that this is hardly going to be the last balancing pass they're gonna do. This pendulum between too good and nerfed to the ground was to be expected at first - we'll see what the next patches bring, and how things look and play a month or two from now. This hotfix was just that, intended to adress the most game-breaking issues, with not a lot of time to even do internal testing on how the changes would work out in practice...

(Note, the above doesnt mean I dont still think they should've waited for another month or so before releasing this in the first place - it's merely written in the context that we've got to work with now.)

100% agreed. Small incremental changes would have taken to long given the mess the game was in right after 0.8 went live. A fast convergence always necessitates a certain amount of overshoot in both directions compared to the equilibrium (i.e. more or less balanced) state.

 

I expect there to be at least 2 more iterations before things will somewhat settle.

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36 minutes ago, DrMechano said:

They've already responded on the NA forums that they're aware they've swung the pendulum too far in the other direction.

Can you give us a link to a SS of them saying it?

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44 minutes ago, DrMechano said:

They've already responded on the NA forums that they're aware they've swung the pendulum too far in the other direction.

I think they intent to do it to fix their "data" to normal level before gameplay :cap_haloween:

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1 hour ago, DrMechano said:

They've already responded on the NA forums that they're aware they've swung the pendulum too far in the other direction.

 

But why are they always "aware" ages after people told them what the consequences would be?

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50 minutes ago, Vinyl_ScratchPlays said:

Can you give us a link to a SS of them saying it?

https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/182333-hotfix-0801-what-did-it-accomplish-and-what-did-it-cause/?page=3&tab=comments#comment-4279973

 

Basically already confirming another hotfix will likely be on the way.

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There is one big problem that Wargaming is breaking basic key rules of their rebalance to fix the CVs.

They created idea of multiple strikes but becuase AA is strong, planes die too easy. If you combine it with longer returning time, planes has almost no chance to go back to the ship again and in result you are fast our of planes.

Bassicaly you lose more than half of your planes to do one poor strike for 5-10k damage. To rebalance OP hakuryu they nerfed literally everything so hard so this ship fits tier 8 now.

 

Get the point, obviously haku was broken and "F" was very effective so it had to be fixed but they change wrong switches and currently, what is the point of having 12 planes in squadron if all planes are dead after one strike?

To avoid it, people are literally dropping torps to nowhere and attack with one strike or two, just to not lose all planes after one strike...

 

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to be honest.... WG does not know what they are doing... they just doing quick fixes hoping that something will stick.
mostly it's the DD players that are crying about new CV game play, so WG is doing best to help DD players in expense of everyone else....

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3 hours ago, DrMechano said:

They've already responded on the NA forums that they're aware they've swung the pendulum too far in the other direction.

Thats always the "WG way", they nerf or buff everytime to much so they need moths to bring a aceptable balace.

I think the next fix will be to much so the cv will be to strong then!

They have no feeling in nerv or buff only a bit so bing it in the right direction.

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What they need to do is do these buffs and nerfs on a weekly bases on a new test server, so they can quickly sort it out without the main player base getting annoyed.

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Please do note that the hotfix torpedo nerf that widens the aiming if you dare manouevre after commencing the attack run only applies to your keyboard keys !!

 

I was quite amazed that it didn't react on the limited mouse steering WG also introduced. So you can still adjust....it's just limited but discovering this my damage increased again. I hope they will not nerf bat that too...

 

I am sorry for having said that without having tried that more often. It doesn't work like that afterall.

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32 minutes ago, Blakk76 said:

to be honest.... WG does not know what they are doing... they just doing quick fixes hoping that something will stick.
mostly it's the DD players that are crying about new CV game play, so WG is doing best to help DD players in expense of everyone else....

I have to agree with you here. And let's not get started on how crap the tier 4 and 6 AC are now ...

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4 minutes ago, Ginnungagap said:

I have to agree with you here. And let's not get started on how crap the tier 4 and 6 AC are now ...

I`m playing Ranger now, for some reason it is better in new patch, at least more planes in torp strikes makes your life a bit easier...

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Do you use braking ( slowing down backward key ) after commencing attack run ? This drains "turbo power" too so should do something useful, if you still have enough that is.  It is counter intuitive as you are longer exposed, but hotfix armoured you 30 % more once commencing to attack run as i recall. That allows you to commence attack run earlier too ( when running out of time often you need to take attack time lengthening upgrades/captain skills....havent done so myself )

 

I struggle with it too, but when too close ( does torpedo acceleration help to be able to release closer ? ) i steer paralel to the ship and have one of my torpedo's hit it at a very shallow angle. Higher chance to miss as those are easier to evade, but better then a not armed torpedo.

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WG insisted on inflicting this mess on the live servers to gather test data. I can understand that there were limits to what they could gather from the test server, but on the other hand you only get one chance to make a first impression. WG had one chance to make CVs attractive to more players, and they blew it. After the hotfix it only became worse. By this point I think the rework is doomed to fail, public opinion has already turned against it, and many of the potential new CV players now won't touch them with a ten foot pole.

 

The very worst decision in all of this was removing odd tiered CVs from the game. From a marketing point of view, combining the rework with the removal of content was a first class blunder. It did not help matters that part of the stated reasons for the rework was so CVs would not be excluded from game modes any more, and the operation of the week when the rework went live was Narai - with CVs excluded. It is not like this disaster was hard to predict either. When I first heard of odd tier CVs being removed, I expected the grind from tier 8 to 10 to be painful. I admit I was wrong about that though. It is not just painful, it is torture that I would not wish on my worst enemy. I don't expect WG will get any new players to play tier 10 carriers unless they get there using free XP.

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6 minutes ago, Rosletyne said:

WG insisted on inflicting this mess on the live servers to gather test data. I can understand that there were limits to what they could gather from the test server, but on the other hand you only get one chance to make a first impression. WG had one chance to make CVs attractive to more players, and they blew it. After the hotfix it only became worse. By this point I think the rework is doomed to fail, public opinion has already turned against it, and many of the potential new CV players now won't touch them with a ten foot pole.

 

The very worst decision in all of this was removing odd tiered CVs from the game. From a marketing point of view, combining the rework with the removal of content was a first class blunder. It did not help matters that part of the stated reasons for the rework was so CVs would not be excluded from game modes any more, and the operation of the week when the rework went live was Narai - with CVs excluded. It is not like this disaster was hard to predict either. When I first heard of odd tier CVs being removed, I expected the grind from tier 8 to 10 to be painful. I admit I was wrong about that though. It is not just painful, it is torture that I would not wish on my worst enemy. I don't expect WG will get any new players to play tier 10 carriers unless they get there using free XP.

I've been working in WG and I can say that it is totally problem of Lesta, not WG, WG has pretty strict and clear testing goals and processes.

I've even played alpha of WOWs, and it was completely different game back then. Since Lesta started to hire mostly teenage youtube and forum activists to "spice up the game" things went south big time...

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4 hours ago, Nechrom said:

And in "fixing" the Haku, they f***ed every other CV instead. Even playing a high health CV like GZ as top tier is a struggle. Planes just melt close to any ship except DDs. Not even going to mention overlapping auras.

When bottom tier it went from very harsh to literally unplayable.

You lose more planes but it's not unplayable - this was my first game in the Lexington. Bottom tier. You can't really circle in the flak, so ZnB tactics seem to work better as long as you have a clear area to run boost into. Also you pretty much always lose the last wave, that's a given

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Well, after playing only few CV battles today I still was able to do more than harm to the enemy team, all Midway battles were 150k+ in damage, though unable to carry sorry arses refusing to cap bases. Shokek (top tier though) was more than able to get pummel singled out "AA" ships.

 

On other hand I've witnessed utter decimation of some CV players, so yea, if there wasn't skill gap there is certainly one now

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