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FukushuNL

CV vs DD: works as intended?

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I don't mean with this thread that I reckon everything is ok and people shouldn't complain about the issue, but I would like to take a look at the issue from a different standpoint and see if, when we are all honest, things are really that bad as some think they are. I'm talking of course about the DD vs CV issue. DDs have a long time, in the absence of CVs reign supreme in stealthiness and the obvious advantages that brings. And that brings a certain gameplay with it. The few times they would encounter a CV would change that gameplay a bit, but only for that match. But now that CVs are back, DDs don't sparcely encounter them anymore, but (for now at least) encounter them in every match. just as intended, might I add, as the Alpha of WoWS shows us. CVs were never an afterthought, but just as intended to be in the game as the other classes. 

 

So what happened (in a nutshell)? CV gameplay was on one side hard to master and not to everyone's taste, while on the other side they had quite a lot of imput in the outcome of the match. Pthis resulted in the better CV dominating the match, while the worse CV player receiving lots of flak. This in turn left only the most hardcore CV players picking up the class, leaving the DDs off their leashes to create a gameplay style that might not have been intended. 

 

Thus here we are, with DD captains who have over the years adopted a certain gameplay style while CVs were mostly absend from the game, encountering CVs in almost every game they play, making the big question give rise:

 

Do DDs have to adjust tactics and, as a consequence to that, do all the othe classes have to use other tactics to win the battle? Or is the game we have been playing moat of the time these last years the WoWS experience we want and need, which is getting broken by CV implementation? Again, I'm not bias to any side of the discussion, just want an honest look at the situation. 

 

So, I think we can all get behind the latter side of the issue, as we have all been playing the game this way ever since the decline of CV appearances in the game. So I won't have elaborate the positive points of that way of playing. DD players like to play the old ways otherwise they wouldn't play the class for so long. It's a fair thought that with the new CVs, the old way to play DDs will be in danger if CVs are here to stay. So we all can get that point of view, right? Right.

 

Thus, let us (with a neutral and honest viewpoint!! I stress this a lot!) look at the former main question, where DDs have to adopt another way of playing the game. What would that game look like? Well, for one, they can't rush to the flag and try to capture it the way they did before without getting spotted by scout oriented CVs (unless CVs might be getting a delay in the first launch of heir planes). To protect themselves, DDs have to adopt a more realistic type of gameplay, staying near other classes to benefit of their AA support more. This also has consequences for overall gameplay. 

 

Cruisers and DDs will have to work more in tandem with eachother and have less chance to go lone wolf, just like they used to do in real life. So teamplay is getting more important for both the survival of the DD as capturing flags. Now as Cruisers have to work together with DDs to capture flags, the team with the more supporting BBs will be having the best chances of succeeding in doing so. So in supporting DDs with AA cover and supporting cruisers in capturing flags it's the team that works together the best that takes over flags instead of the best DD. Going at stuff solo will now most of the time be punished by hawkeyed CVs preying on lone ships. 

 

Does that mean DDs have lost their worth in battles? Not at all imo. Most DDs were already excellent gunboats which were using their guns 90% of the time anyways, apart from the Shima line. Giving support fire instead of being the main target has been the most healthy situation of DDs anyways. And old traits of DDs are, while reduced in potency, still very much there: 8+ km torps of those that carry them are still deadly and useful, they are still hard to track with their low air detectability and are still quite manouverable, making them hard to hit while under cover of friendly AA. And with only 1 squadron per CV in the air, taking the right oppertunity to make your move is still an option. 

 

TL;DR: You are just not that invulnerable anymore in the stealth department while in close proximity of planes plus CVs have better anti DD weaponry, thus you have to rely on your team more. Is that a bad thing? If you are set in the old ways and love the lone wolf gameplay, you are going to have a much harder time, yes. If you can adapt, play more carefully and use your team more, then it's not a bad thing. I might even dare to say that if people would start to play the new game and tried to counter CVs as intended (stick together more, use AA bubbles to support and be supported, attack caps as a tight group), the game would be all the better for it if played correctly. The game has changed, no doubt about it. The DD's strength, between radar and being mostly gunboats, has only been reeled in a bit. If it has been reeled in too much, that is for everyone themselves to decide.

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Is not a simple change of tactics but more of not playing DDs anymore. You have to stay behind, you have to go back, you have to chase ships rendering torps ineffective, you do not have concealment anymore so you can't cap, you can't defend yourself, your friendly CV can't help you repelling an attack, etc.

It's more like "why bother, better get a cruiser or a BB as they are not that affected?"

I say is broken, DDs are taking the blunt of the change and WG is very dismissive about it, like when suboctavian said DDs are not using the 'P' trick! :Smile_facepalm:

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why play DDs and cruisers at all? since concealment is a thing of the past why bother with smaller vessels? Take a CV or a BB.
I played BB/DD/CC, but now, why bother?  I liked chasing DDs, now i can dance in torp soup. Halelujah

 

btw, there is counterplay to DDs already it`s called radar ship.

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CV can help you but not as much as before ofc, for instance I usually  start by launching rocketplanes, zip over the cap drop fighter there to cover and spot for my dd then procede to incinerate the enemy dd at that cap and see what else is rolling in twards the cap and then pick next plane type depending on what is most immediate threat, works ok most of the times, i dont do as much damage early on as i might if i go for farming but we pummel the enemy more often then not and dds usually cap no problem since their team is usually busy awoiding torps and rockets :cap_cool:

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People were spoiled with the 5% CV population before, and now have no idea how to play when planes are around.

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1 minute ago, kfa said:

People were spoiled with the 5% CV population before, and now have no idea how to play when planes are around.

exactly

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Even with the old CVs around DDs weren't stripped totally out of their concealment as they're now.

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5 minutes ago, Altsak said:

Even with the old CVs around DDs weren't stripped totally out of their concealment as they're now.

You mean like when before RTS CVs could just stick squadron above DD for the WHOLE match ? 

 

Yeah its def worse now /s

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4 minutes ago, Altsak said:

Even with the old CVs around DDs weren't stripped totally out of their concealment as they're now.

This.

 

In the RTS era, even the most unicum CV players had their spotting ability limited by the fact that the other CV could force them to pull away just by moving their fighters into the vicinity. Those who claim that the old style CVs had greater spotting ability than the reworked ones don't seem to realize this. 

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problem is, while you're not all that wrong, over the last few years the game in general and DDs in particular have been balanced around the relative lack of CVs because of course they were. WG couldn't very well balance the game around a dream situation that they wished would exist.

Just a few examples...

  • mostly relatively short torpedo ranges (~10km even at top tier) because DDs could afford to get that close with few planes around to "surprise spot" them
  • Lots of radar ships to keep them from getting that close without any risk
  • Frankly idiotic instances of consumable spam, hello Belfast and USN CLs (and even Hydro/Radar on BBs)
  • DDs that arent even DDs anymore because that was "necessary" to work around the counters introduced - Harugumo

And now the situation that everything has been balanced around has changed drastically. Of course that's going to lead to massive problems... Which will take some time to iron out, in more ways than just DDs adapting.

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31 minutes ago, FukushuNL said:

I don't mean with this thread that I reckon everything is ok and people shouldn't complain about the issue, but I would like to take a look at the issue from a different standpoint and see if, when we are all honest, things are really that bad as some think they are. I'm talking of course about the DD vs CV issue. DDs have a long time, in the absence of CVs reign supreme in stealthiness and the obvious advantages that brings. And that brings a certain gameplay with it. The few times they would encounter a CV would change that gameplay a bit, but only for that match. But now that CVs are back, DDs don't sparcely encounter them anymore, but (for now at least) encounter them in every match. just as intended, might I add, as the Alpha of WoWS shows us. CVs were never an afterthought, but just as intended to be in the game as the other classes. 

 

So what happened (in a nutshell)? CV gameplay was on one side hard to master and not to everyone's taste, while on the other side they had quite a lot of imput in the outcome of the match. Pthis resulted in the better CV dominating the match, while the worse CV player receiving lots of flak. This in turn left only the most hardcore CV players picking up the class, leaving the DDs off their leashes to create a gameplay style that might not have been intended. 

 

Thus here we are, with DD captains who have over the years adopted a certain gameplay style while CVs were mostly absend from the game, encountering CVs in almost every game they play, making the big question give rise:

 

Do DDs have to adjust tactics and, as a consequence to that, do all the othe classes have to use other tactics to win the battle? Or is the game we have been playing moat of the time these last years the WoWS experience we want and need, which is getting broken by CV implementation? Again, I'm not bias to any side of the discussion, just want an honest look at the situation. 

 

So, I think we can all get behind the latter side of the issue, as we have all been playing the game this way ever since the decline of CV appearances in the game. So I won't have elaborate the positive points of that way of playing. DD players like to play the old ways otherwise they wouldn't play the class for so long. It's a fair thought that with the new CVs, the old way to play DDs will be in danger if CVs are here to stay. So we all can get that point of view, right? Right.

 

Thus, let us (with a neutral and honest viewpoint!! I stress this a lot!) look at the former main question, where DDs have to adopt another way of playing the game. What would that game look like? Well, for one, they can't rush to the flag and try to capture it the way they did before without getting spotted by scout oriented CVs (unless CVs might be getting a delay in the first launch of heir planes). To protect themselves, DDs have to adopt a more realistic type of gameplay, staying near other classes to benefit of their AA support more. This also has consequences for overall gameplay. 

 

Cruisers and DDs will have to work more in tandem with eachother and have less chance to go lone wolf, just like they used to do in real life. So teamplay is getting more important for both the survival of the DD as capturing flags. Now as Cruisers have to work together with DDs to capture flags, the team with the more supporting BBs will be having the best chances of succeeding in doing so. So in supporting DDs with AA cover and supporting cruisers in capturing flags it's the team that works together the best that takes over flags instead of the best DD. Going at stuff solo will now most of the time be punished by hawkeyed CVs preying on lone ships. 

 

Does that mean DDs have lost their worth in battles? Not at all imo. Most DDs were already excellent gunboats which were using their guns 90% of the time anyways, apart from the Shima line. Giving support fire instead of being the main target has been the most healthy situation of DDs anyways. And old traits of DDs are, while reduced in potency, still very much there: 8+ km torps of those that carry them are still deadly and useful, they are still hard to track with their low air detectability and are still quite manouverable, making them hard to hit while under cover of friendly AA. And with only 1 squadron per CV in the air, taking the right oppertunity to make your move is still an option. 

 

TL;DR: You are just not that invulnerable anymore in the stealth department while in close proximity of planes plus CVs have better anti DD weaponry, thus you have to rely on your team more. Is that a bad thing? If you are set in the old ways and love the lone wolf gameplay, you are going to have a much harder time, yes. If you can adapt, play more carefully and use your team more, then it's not a bad thing. I might even dare to say that if people would start to play the new game and tried to counter CVs as intended (stick together more, use AA bubbles to support and be supported, attack caps as a tight group), the game would be all the better for it if played correctly. The game has changed, no doubt about it. The DD's strength, between radar and being mostly gunboats, has only been reeled in a bit. If it has been reeled in too much, that is for everyone themselves to decide.

 

14 minutes ago, Winged_Cat_Dormant said:

Is not a simple change of tactics but more of not playing DDs anymore. You have to stay behind, you have to go back, you have to chase ships rendering torps ineffective, you do not have concealment anymore so you can't cap, you can't defend yourself, your friendly CV can't help you repelling an attack, etc.

It's more like "why bother, better get a cruiser or a BB as they are not that affected?"

I say is broken, DDs are taking the blunt of the change and WG is very dismissive about it, like when suboctavian said DDs are not using the 'P' trick! :Smile_facepalm:

When I play destroyer, I notice I have to play them much more conservatively. One does not simply lonewolf towards the middle or the edge of the map and expect to see the huge damage numbers rolling through the screen.

 

I also noticed I'm doing a lot less damage then I used to, but I seem to retain my kills and xp. And I even had a battle where me (I was in a tier 8 DD) and a friendly DD (Gearing?) were hunting an enemy Shima for minutes and it was actually fun and very much exciting to do (but it didn't result in doing a lot of damage and I think I ended up at the center of the list somewhere).

 

But DDs are having a hard time atm, but part of this is that many DD players are unwilling to adapt and play smart. Heck, even Flambass commented on how extremely poor players the majority of DD players are! :Smile_teethhappy:

 

I mean, I see them often ignore the caps and sail towards the enemy CVs instead. I see them pop smoke to hide from planes, only to start dakka dakka and or switch on AA. But you will get spotted and punished if you break your secured conceilment. It's just dumb, with AA on especially, it's really easy to spot DDs inside their smoke from a plane.

 

It's definitely become harder and all classes will need to adapt, but I also notice more teamplay now during randoms, more people debating tactics and fewer people going ALL CAPS and blame someone else for their untimely demise.

 

But I don't think that removing plane ability to spot torps is currently enough to make me able to do the same damage numbers as before this update. It's much harder to get into a good position where I can camp and spam torps and dakka dakka now (except knife fighting other DDs, I seem to kill a lot of those when playing DD myself). And besides, catapult planes seem to hang directly above ships now which kinda makes them useless as light-spotters anyway :Smile_sceptic:

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Excepting certain aa dd's, at high tier's there isn't really any counter play. Aa does nothing, and to do your core role - scouting and contesting caps - is to invite annihilation. 

 

Radars when playing dd's are frustrating when you get caught but you can play around them and counter them, and you can reduce their effect on you. That's not possible where carriers are concerned.

 

I will also add that aa seems ineffectual against skilled cv's anyway. My aa mino did 100,000 plane damage and shot down an underwhelming 26 planes. It had literally no impact on the cv's ability to dominate.

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17 minutes ago, Yedwy said:

CV can help you but not as much as before ofc, for instance I usually  start by launching rocketplanes, zip over the cap drop fighter there to cover and spot for my dd then procede to incinerate the enemy dd at that cap and see what else is rolling in twards the cap and then pick next plane type depending on what is most immediate threat, works ok most of the times, i dont do as much damage early on as i might if i go for farming but we pummel the enemy more often then not and dda usually cap no problem

I'll usually try to spot the majority of red blobs so my team can see the generic movement (and to spot any lemmingtrain that might be occuring). Many times DDs are still near AA and I'll usually F-key after just one attack or continu spotting after having made one opportunistic attack on enemy DD.

Having the limited fighter consumables makes me have to think how to use those tactically and I think this kind of gameplay is fun.

 

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1 minute ago, Pte_Maylam said:

Excepting certain aa dd's, at high tier's there isn't really any counter play. Aa does nothing, and to do your core role - scouting and contesting caps - is to invite annihilation. 

 

Radars when playing dd's are frustrating when you get caught but you can play around them and counter them, and you can reduce their effect on you. That's not possible where carriers are concerned.

 

I will also add that aa seems ineffectual against skilled cv's anyway. My aa mino did 100,000 plane damage and shot down an underwhelming 26 planes. It had literally no impact on the cv's ability to dominate.

They are buffing the continuous damage done by AA and this is a good thing. My Atlanta is kinda useless now despite the fact that it's supposed to be an AA cruiser :Smile_sceptic: 

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That's good, but I don't think it will alleviate the plight of a destroyer being victimized by a cv.

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35 minutes ago, kfa said:

People were spoiled with the 5% CV population before, and now have no idea how to play when planes are around.

 

IRL CV made all other surface ships obsolete, so how do you implement that in game without making all other ships obsolete?

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I played all classes except CVs. But in the past often Divi with CV. My favorites where DDs and some Cruisers, for example US ones. 

 

i am playing now: very little Classic DDs. If i play a DD now: russian DD. As a non Citadell Cruiser. So i dont care about  Caps, Radar and Rocket planes. Cruisers: switched more to longe range roaming Cruisers like Charles Martell etc. No need for Islands, that dont protect me anymore and that block my AA. And BBs. But play them safer.  Still sitting on a massive hitpool. I avoid the AA weaker ones. I try to get the broadside of the poor cruisers, that are spotted from spawn on. 

 

Is that as much fun as before the patch: no. My playstile is much more passiv now. But thats the meta. A unexpected plane spot in a cruiser: five ships targeting you in a turn. So: try to avoid. 

 

Teamplay in random: yes. With my Divi. Sometimes with others. But often enough the red ones aren't  the only players between you and victory. The green ones too.  

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3 hours ago, Tyrendian89 said:

problem is, while you're not all that wrong, over the last few years the game in general and DDs in particular have been balanced around the relative lack of CVs because of course they were. WG couldn't very well balance the game around a dream situation that they wished would exist.

Just a few examples...

  • mostly relatively short torpedo ranges (~10km even at top tier) because DDs could afford to get that close with few planes around to "surprise spot" them
  • Lots of radar ships to keep them from getting that close without any risk
  • Frankly idiotic instances of consumable spam, hello Belfast and USN CLs (and even Hydro/Radar on BBs)
  • DDs that arent even DDs anymore because that was "necessary" to work around the counters introduced - Harugumo

And now the situation that everything has been balanced around has changed drastically. Of course that's going to lead to massive problems... Which will take some time to iron out, in more ways than just DDs adapting.

THIS.

It's true that people were so used to lack of CVs that they frogot how to deal with them, but at the same time the "game" learned to deal with DDs without CVs. The return of CVs basically means reintroduction of an extra threat that's much worse for DDs than for other classes - into a situation that was otherwise pretty balanced.

It should be noted that it's not completely one-dimensional:

 - Radar cruisers need to be more careful as well since they can get spotted by things that don't just appear under their Radar to then promptly disappear under their guns, so they risk more by getting close

 - Planes in general stopped seeing torps, making long-range torping a bit more viable

 - There being less DDs means less spotting by things that are not planes (in a match without CVs the main problem of a DD is another DD - and these being less numerous works in favor of the remaining ones)

These, however, offer but a small consolation to the DDs in face of what's often a double CV MM in a situation otherwise balanced around the idea that the other ships need to be able to deal with DDs without aerial support. It's clear that DDs need some help now...

 

...instead next major patch we're getting increased Radar range for US cruisers and increased Radar duration for soviet ones. And a huge flooding nerf that makes sense for CVs but for DDs just means that the hard-to-inflict DoT becomes an extra fire. And WG claiming that the damage numbers would actually go up boils down to the reasoning that "hey, the new flooding is so weak that nobody will bother repairing it now unless they suffer two at once". But hey. For the first 6 seconds of Radar (the time when most enemies notice your presence and are busy turning guns in your direction anyway) you'll only be shot by the ship that uses the consumable (usually the only one with guns more or less on target from the get-go). Oh, such joy.

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It's funny and sad at the same time how far some people are going to justify this failed rework. It's like saying the introduction of OP Belfast wasn't an obvious, shameless cash grab but rather "change of the tier 7 meta" :cap_haloween: Anyway, GL "adapting" with your favourite DD when CV 2 tiers lower is hell bent on ruining your battle and tosses unlimited waves of rocket planes until you effing die. Take some glue you were about to eat and stick yourself to AA spec Worcester for 20 minutes straight, because thats how DD gameplay should look in this historically accurate game.

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3 hours ago, Capra76 said:

IRL CV made all other surface ships obsolete, so how do you implement that in game without making all other ships obsolete?

CVs made all other capital ships obsolete, but the smaller surface ship classes still had (and have today) a significant role to play in the CV era. But cruisers and destroyers transitioned into more of an AA and ASW role until the development of surface-to-surface missiles made them capable of long-range strikes.

 

It was mainly the battleships that became obsolete, because their striking power was severely outranged by the CVs, and they didn't have any other significant role besides that of artillery platform.

 

Sure, BBs could and did make for formidable AA platforms, but you could get the same level of AA firepower with more flexibility by just building multiple cruisers for less cost, and the increased survivability of the battleships just wasn't good enough against aircraft to be worth it.

 

Of course, a lot of naval war doctrine in the carrier era relies on your own naval air power being available to intercept enemy air strikes...

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3 hours ago, NothingButTheRain said:

They are buffing the continuous damage done by AA and this is a good thing. My Atlanta is kinda useless now despite the fact that it's supposed to be an AA cruiser :Smile_sceptic: 

Buffing the AA will not work if they never get 'in there', IMO...

They need to nerf the speed of the planes so they actually can get 'worked over' by the AA.

 

What this will do is reduce the difference between good (able to avoid FLAK-burst) and less good CV players.

- It will not stop the plane-F-spam;

- It will not stop the semi-perma-spotting.

 

It WILL however restore a bit of difference between AA and non-AA ships. 

But not that much... CV will just press F sooner when meeting AA ships. 

 

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33 minutes ago, Noble_Potato said:

It's funny and sad at the same time how far some people are going to justify this failed rework. It's like saying the introduction of OP Belfast wasn't an obvious, shameless cash grab but rather "change of the tier 7 meta" :cap_haloween: Anyway, GL "adapting" with your favourite DD when CV 2 tiers lower is hell bent on ruining your battle and tosses unlimited waves of rocket planes until you effing die. Take some glue you were about to eat and stick yourself to AA spec Worcester for 20 minutes straight, because thats how DD gameplay should look in this historically accurate game.

Well, it will take that CV most of the game - so what you are actually doing is 'taking one for the team'.

In the meantime, he'll need at least 3 flyouts to kill you unless you're really bad or unlucky.

You'll probably also kill a few planes... and he'll have a meagre score. 

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10 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Buffing the AA will not work if they never get 'in there', IMO...

They need to nerf the speed of the planes so they actually can get 'worked over' by the AA.

 

What this will do is reduce the difference between good (able to avoid FLAK-burst) and less good CV players.

- It will not stop the plane-F-spam;

- It will not stop the semi-perma-spotting.

 

It WILL however restore a bit of difference between AA and non-AA ships. 

But not that much... CV will just press F sooner when meeting AA ships. 

 

I think I'd prefer AA ranges to be increased so it's easier for dedicated AA ships to provide an AA umbrella to friendly ships (for instance DDs trying to cap).

 

Plane F spam should also get nerfed. I think adding a delay of 10 seconds or so should do the trick. Add a take-off animation or something, but the extra 10 seconds should lower the amount of plane spam significantly.

Lowering the speed of the planes is something I already considered, but when thinking about it some more, this is really a very significant nerf and affects more then just the carriers ability to do its job.

 

There is no perma-spotting from CVs. Yes, there is certainly more spotting. And planes can certainly linger above any spot on the map indefinitely. Perhaps another tweak worth considering could be a counter or some sort, like limited amount of fuel? So you'd have to land after having flown for 3 minutes or so?

 

So in short, I would suggest (in addition to anything I may have already suggested) the following:

 

-To add a delay in the take of of a new squadron. 10 seconds should suffice in lowering the plane spam.

-To make CV planes limited in their ability to fly with a single squadron indefinitely. Add a counter of say 3 minutes and after that the planes have to go back adn refuel or get lost in the sea.

-Increase the range of AA bubbles so dedicated AA ships and ships build around AA can give meaningful AA cover to friendlies, including DDs trying to cap.

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16 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Buffing the AA will not work if they never get 'in there', IMO...

They need to nerf the speed of the planes so they actually can get 'worked over' by the AA.

Even t10 planes suffer when "worked over" by several ships' AA, even if you dodge the flak. If you give more power to continuous AA, you won't need that many ships. If you make F less effective at disengaging, the planes won't have the magical gtFo option when they find themselves losing health faster than expected. After the hotfix I'm expecting much more planes falling from the sky and/or competent CV players forced into a much more cautious play to not find themselves deplaned (contrary to the popular opinion, losing planes does hurt, A LOT). And all this is about the fast planes of t10 - the speeds at lower tiers are significantly lower and the reserves of planes smaller, so you have much less planes to carelessly lose before you start suffering a serious deficit in what you can send.

 

23 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

What this will do is reduce the difference between good (able to avoid FLAK-burst) and less good CV players.

- It will not stop the plane-F-spam;

- It will not stop the semi-perma-spotting.

 

It WILL however restore a bit of difference between AA and non-AA ships. 

But not that much... CV will just press F sooner when meeting AA ships. 

The matter of F-spam is mentioned as something to be addressed in the hotfix as a separate thing, however.

 

10 minutes ago, NothingButTheRain said:

I think I'd prefer AA ranges to be increased so it's easier for dedicated AA ships to provide an AA umbrella to friendly ships (for instance DDs trying to cap).

 

It wouldn't matter when CVs can dodge FLAK. CVs that can't are actually vulnerable enough. And if you both increase the AA ranges AND shift damage from flak to continuous AA,  you're creating a lot of no-fly zones (longer range of a cruiser that wants to cover a friendly DD in cap is fine. But when you increase the ranges, you end up with a lot of overlapping among ships that don'te even make any effort to keep close to and support each other - they just are in more or less the same area of the map and boom, a no-fly zone is created).

 

14 minutes ago, NothingButTheRain said:

There is no perma-spotting from CVs. Yes, there is certainly more spotting. And planes can certainly linger above any spot on the map indefinitely. Perhaps another tweak worth considering could be a counter or some sort, like limited amount of fuel? So you'd have to land after having flown for 3 minutes or so?

Limited fuel is a solution to a problem that basically doesn't really exist. The amount of spotting we observe isn't because CVs are hovering in place, it's there because the fighters (consumable) provide spotting, because the CV can attack with rocket planes and (as long as they keep close to the fight and front-face in the right direction) pretty damn quickly be back with another squadron AND because there's very often more than one CV doing these things at the same time. Limiting the fuel just wouldn't do a thing because, frankly, I don't think I've ever kept controlling a single squadron for more than 2 minutes (and even that's mostly reserved to the first squadron that's focused on scouting) and I don't think I've really seen any CVs doing that either.

 

24 minutes ago, NothingButTheRain said:

So in short, I would suggest (in addition to anything I may have already suggested) the following:

 

-To add a delay in the take of of a new squadron. 10 seconds should suffice in lowering the plane spam.

I would agree with that... but only for "same squadron" version. So, if you want to fly again with the same type of plane, you need to wait a bit (and there should be a global cooldown at the start of the battle, tuned so that your planes reach the cap at roughly the same time a DD from the closest cap would when steaming straight for it).

In fact, for launching the same squadron again, the cooldown could be even much longer than 10 seconds, coupled with a special consumable "emergency takeoff" or something that would immediately reset the plane timers. That way you could take off immediately in a pinch but could only accomplish that 2-3 times per battle. This would allow CV players to remain flexible while curbing down "cheesy" strategies that rely on spamming planes mindlessly to perform low-efficiency, low-risk attacks all the time (especially the torp soup of the "long-torping" Haku set-up comes to mind where you rely on luck to hit anything but hardly even come within enemy AA while spamming the torps everywhere).

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In the real world (read WW2 Pacific) when it was realised that CVs were the dominant class the primary aim of the combatants was to destroy the enemy's CVs to control the seas. The role of BBs and CA/CLs was to provide AA cover, and protect the CVs should any enemy surface ships get through to the fleet, most likely at night. The primary strike target of the CVs was the enemy's CVs. This is the type of play that WG could try to promote - which should include assisting surface ships to break through to the CV. 

 

In my opinion there are 3 main problems: 

The first is that there is no incentive for the CV to attack the other CV, the CV is more like a floating airfield, totally immune from any serious attack until possibly the endgame, when no more other ships are around. All other classes suffer because of this.

 

The second is that there is no fully player controlled counter to attack/torpedo/divebomber aircraft. The best counter in the old version were the fighters, these could be used to intercept attacking aircraft, or drive off spotting aircraft. This aspect of play is completely missing in the new CV world. AA tweaks to ships will not be enough. The tactic of supporting ships when pushing by providing air cover has been abolished.

 

The third is the concept that CVs have unlimited aircraft and can launch these at will. The CV captain has little incentive to conserve planes and act strategically, All he has to to is launch, attack, press F key, launch, repeat ad infinitum. There is no fear factor for a CV captain any more, he should be under threat of losing his ship, or running out of planes. This may be attractive to some less skilled players as they are guaranteed to be alive for most of a battle, but where is the skill, tactical thinking and positional skill that all other ship classes require of their captains to be a really good player. For an arcade game WOWs had (deliberate use past tense) an unusually high need for these skills, as opposed to the frenetic pushing of keys to get the maximum use out of the aircraft weapon.

 

To me the infinite quantity of planes and the immediate relaunch is akin to DDs having reload times of 10 seconds on their torpedoes from T2 to T10. (Take tongue out of cheek!) 

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