Targeted nerf of single premium ship is important precedent and warning finger

[RAYvenMP]

you may think that nerfing one ship for the sake of balance is a good thing, and i fully agree,

Question is, why GC? why now? There is kamikaze, iwaki/arkansas, belfasts or old Saipan who were just as or even more OP

 

what made GC to "cross the line" that WG held for so many years? Can anyone guarantee this wont become first of many nerfs to come?

It is very common practice in F2P game to release OP items on purpose to boost the sales, and once the hype is over, they nerf them - they may compensate or not. For WG it would be win/win strategy, cash out as much as possible, nerf it later and move on to the next one - giving back to customer compensation in a form of ingame currency. They wont ever loose a penny.

 

so yes, balance is important, but on the long run if WG will decide to follow this path, the amount of OP stuff they will start selling can rapidly increase and balance will be gone - why to even test ships anymore - just release them OP, cash out and balance after.

I don't have to be a marketing genius to see a effortless potential here.

 

I would be very happy if WG could explain why after so many years of not nerfing premiums they decided to start now, and what they do plan in the future.

Otherwise, watchout.

 

PS: They pulled those over-performing ships from sale to artificially increase their rarity. Then put them into RNG loot boxes that some ppl paid thousands for and literally month later announced that super cool rare ship will be nerfed - and its "first in queue to nerf"

Bravo.

[Aragathor]

Seeing as WG already announced further nerfs on RU (see below), I'd say the bad sales policy of WG has caught up to them and forced them to look for desperate measures. This will only alienate paying customers and hurt the game even more.

For the last year at least we have been telling them that jacking up prices for boxes, while nerfing contents makes us spend less. Now we are here.

We have told them about overpowered ships before they were released, they didn't listen. Now we are here.

And if WG doesn't start listening, we won't be here anymore.

 

 

PS: I really like this game, but I don't like how the people developing and selling it act.

[anonym_mlJIAFnOwMVb]

7 minutes ago, Aragathor said:

Seeing as WG already announced further nerfs on RU (see below), I'd say the bad sales policy of WG has caught up to them and forced them to look for desperate measures. This will only alienate paying customers and hurt the game even more.

For the last year at least we have been telling them that jacking up prices for boxes, while nerfing contents makes us spend less. Now we are here.

We have told them about overpowered ships before they were released, they didn't listen. Now we are here.

And if WG doesn't start listening, we won't be here anymore.

 

 

PS: I really like this game, but I don't like how the people developing and selling it act.

I honestly don't think it's on the devs. i think they just have their hands tied because people in suits who has never played a video game in their life just want to see numbers.  They don't particularly care how.  That's quite evident with folks who have left the bigger studios talk about the corporate hostile takeovers.  

[RAYvenMP]

if i had to guess, i would say WG is preparing new business model.

F2P games are heavily relying on whales - the ppl who pay $1000 to get Belfast or Missouri from loot boxes without a blink. Thats the cash cow right now. But whole loot box business is becoming endangered by regulations and its entirely possible it will get completely banned in many countries.

To keep the cash flowing, this can be a solution - and whales don't care, more OP and expensive the better. They wont even care that much if its just temporarily OP, they will move on to next OP stuff to make them feel "special"

 

whole this "we want to balance the game" would make sense if they werent telling us for years that premiums are untouchable and they would rather stop selling them than nerf them...yet here we are

[wilkatis_LV]

1 hour ago, RAYvenMP said:

why GC?

Better question is - why not?

Had to be one of the broken ships, and GC fits the bill. Could have easily been Kamikaze or any of the others, GC was simply the one picked.

 

1 hour ago, RAYvenMP said:

why now?

This was answered by S_O on reddit:

 

Quote

I pushed for at least trying to nerf several extremely OP ships, personally for almost a year. (..) I've spent a lot of effort to make my colleagues OK with this idea. Blame me please - I did push for this hard, and I bear huge part of responsibility for that. And you know why? Only two reasons: your feedback and free-to-win principle. I believe in both of those things. Nerfing a few ships like Cesare bring hure risks from buisness side. From buisneess side it's better not to touch them at all and just hope their popularity slowly falls. Re-intruducing them for prem shop sale was extremely weak argument internally, because nobody believes it worths the risk. And still, we agreed to try this, because we want the game to be better balanced for everyone.

Spoiler

https://www.reddit.com/r/WorldOfWarships/comments/anfrag/no_fun_allowed_comrade/eft98pt/?context=3

 

This is the rare case where I stand behind WGs decision 100%. Why now? Someone had to start the idea, they had to convince others to go with it, they had to make it happen. Takes time and effort. But it's a start, and hopefully this isn't where it stops. You yourself list multiple ships proving that there IS an issue and it NEEDS to be addressed. GC's 1st, hopefully others won't wait long after it

 

---

 

Afaik WoT has been plagued by OP premiums that noone dares nerfing for a long time by now, and that has been listed as one of the big reasons for why the game is dying. Meanwhile take a look at another, maybe not directly equal, but relatively similar case - League of Legends. Their monetization is Skins (effectively "bonuseless" permacamos) for their Champions. Sometimes a skin manages to make a character stronger - through changed hitboxes / through visuals no longer matching hitboxes / through colour changes making stuff harder to see / through bugs - Rito isn't afraid to fix this. And what if a character starts overperforming? So what that you have a skin for it, it will get nerfed back down to a more balanced place. Has this been a problem for them? I can't recall even one case of that.

 

Sure, your OP sealcubbing toy being nerfed will suck. But honestly, for the game balance that is an improvement.

And I don't get the "I don't trust WG anymore" argument either. I don't trust them now not to release something broken that will screw up the game and they will just refuse to nerf it. "Buy the newest OP thing that leaves the last OP thing in the dust to remain competitive" is a garbage strategy. What was it for WoT - Defender and IS-3A? I haven't played that game since years before these tanks were introduced, and still I've heard of thier negative effects on the game.

Meanwhile if WG goes ahead and shows that they can balance ships - even premiums - that are overperforming (since they generally don't struggle with buffing ships apart from being slow at it - that part is already known) it puts MORE trust in me that in the future we still will see a fair and balanced game, not a case of "whos daddys wallet is thicker".

[RAYvenMP]

23 minutes ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Better question is - why not?

Had to be one of the broken ships, and GC fits the bill. Could have easily been Kamikaze or any of the others, GC was simply the one picked.

 

This was answered by S_O on reddit:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

https://www.reddit.com/r/WorldOfWarships/comments/anfrag/no_fun_allowed_comrade/eft98pt/?context=3

 

This is the rare case where I stand behind WGs decision 100%. Why now? Someone had to start the idea, they had to convince others to go with it, they had to make it happen. Takes time and effort. But it's a start, and hopefully this isn't where it stops. You yourself list multiple ships proving that there IS an issue and it NEEDS to be addressed. GC's 1st, hopefully others won't wait long after it

 

---

 

Afaik WoT has been plagued by OP premiums that noone dares nerfing for a long time by now, and that has been listed as one of the big reasons for why the game is dying. Meanwhile take a look at another, maybe not directly equal, but relatively similar case - League of Legends. Their monetization is Skins (effectively "bonuseless" permacamos) for their Champions. Sometimes a skin manages to make a character stronger - through changed hitboxes / through visuals no longer matching hitboxes / through colour changes making stuff harder to see / through bugs - Rito isn't afraid to fix this. And what if a character starts overperforming? So what that you have a skin for it, it will get nerfed back down to a more balanced place. Has this been a problem for them? I can't recall even one case of that.

 

Sure, your OP sealcubbing toy being nerfed will suck. But honestly, for the game balance that is an improvement.

And I don't get the "I don't trust WG anymore" argument either. I don't trust them now not to release something broken that will screw up the game and they will just refuse to nerf it. "Buy the newest OP thing that leaves the last OP thing in the dust to remain competitive" is a garbage strategy. What was it for WoT - Defender and IS-3A? I haven't played that game since years before these tanks were introduced, and still I've heard of thier negative effects on the game.

Meanwhile if WG goes ahead and shows that they can balance ships - even premiums - that are overperforming (since they generally don't struggle with buffing ships apart from being slow at it - that part is already known) it puts MORE trust in me that in the future we still will see a fair and balanced game, not a case of "whos daddys wallet is thicker".

let me guess, you don't own GC, gremy, belfast, kutuzov etc.  so you got a feeling that this announced and likely upcoming nerf hammers will just make it better game for YOU.

maybe you are right, maybe WG wants to have a better and fair game at last

Maybe they realized the mistake of releasing OP ships (how could they know Belfast will be OP), then pulling them back, and re-leasing them again in loot boxes instead of balancing them right away. Maybe it was not for the money, maybe it was all just coincidence they appeared as exclusive rewards in loot boxes after the "we wont ever sell them again" statement...or maybe, you know...you are little bit too naive?

[Patton_Master]

1 hour ago, RAYvenMP said:

Question is, why GC? why now?

If Wargaming gives the option of real money back its ok. But otherwise it will be  a parody.

[RAYvenMP]

3 minutes ago, Patton_Master said:

If Wargaming gives the option of real money back its ok. But otherwise it will be  a parody.

 

that would obviously be a very clear and fair message of what their real intentions are ... but i got this little feeling, its not exactly what they want to do.

[Patton_Master]

1 minute ago, RAYvenMP said:

that would obviously be a very clear and fair message of what their real intentions are ... but i got this little feeling, its not exactly what they want to do.

Yep. Wanna mess around with the customer. Wargaming-style.

[RAYvenMP]

8 minutes ago, Patton_Master said:

Yep. Wanna mess around with the customer. Wargaming-style.

there are only 2 ways out of this:

1. if they insist on balancing them, give the players option to refund them via the method they paid with

2. let them as they are, STOP offering them as super rare deals in RNG boxes to milk players, let them be a part of history as memento of mistakes that should not ever repeat again. they are OP, but not immortal. CVs counter kamikaze hard. RN BBs or DDs/CVs counter GC and Belfast can be dealt with in the announced radar and IFHE changes. Its not like games are full of them.

[Oberendgegner]

3. buff all other ships, so they are no longer op :)

[wilkatis_LV]

17 minutes ago, RAYvenMP said:

let me guess, you don't own GC, gremy, belfast, kutuzov etc.  so you got a feeling that this announced and likely upcoming nerf hammers will just make it better game for YOU.

 I own a Kamikaze. I honestly am surprised she wasn't 1st and hope she's in line next.

 

And no, that's a better game for EVERYONE.

 

18 minutes ago, RAYvenMP said:

Maybe they realized the mistake of releasing OP ships (how could they know Belfast will be OP), then pulling them back, and re-leasing them again in loot boxes instead of balancing them right away. Maybe it was not for the money, maybe it was all just coincidence they appeared as exclusive rewards in loot boxes after the "we wont ever sell them again" statement...or maybe, you know...you are little bit too naive?

Keep in mind they, just like pretty much any company, will have multiple independent teams working on stuff. One teams decisions don't always have to go through others. And their stance on things may be changed at any point.

[Patton_Master]

I have a good marketing idea for wargaming. Sell some premium tanks in wows. No worries about balancing or performance. The player drowns at the start. You get what you paid for and thats it.

[ColonelPete]

Common practice in the gaming industry. Done for over 20 years to millions of players, usually without player rebellion.

Do not see what makes WoWs special or different.

Good companies strife for game balance and therefore adapt their game.

[Episparh]

Well, there is one way people can give their opinion - with their wallets.  

 

 

 

 

[anonym_mlJIAFnOwMVb]

people are still complaining about the Belfast even after the stealth fire rework and smoke meta rework?  The ship is slow. Reloads slow.  You can't park in smoke anymore or you die.  All a dd has to do is creep up on you and torp you to death and theres nothing you can do about it.  The acceleration is awful.  Paper thin armor. Short range radar.  Its strong for its tier sure, but i'd rather have a Fiji.  You lost out on a good utility ship. Get over it. Move on. 

[ApesTogetherStronK]

11 minutes ago, Episparh said:

Well, there is one way people can give their opinion - with their wallets.  

 

 

 

 

And with our time. 

Wargaming has not seen a penny from me for a long time now, though I never paid too much to begin with, 90% of my premiums were earned/gifts/won in competitions. 

As for time. I uninstalled. Removes the temptation to start the game up 'every now and then' and frankly now that I have time to pay attention to my other games it's been rather nice. 

 

A very, very vocal section of this forum repeatedly warned (and inevitably debated among ourselves) Wargaming about the direction of the game for the last several years, this includes me. In the past year I feel that most people ramped up our opinions on quite a few things; Wargaming ignored every last piece of feedback, I even got Conway on the horn and I know others did and he confirmed passing on our comments or bug reports to devs and we have been summarily ignored by the devs for those years. I'm at a point where I'm obviously still loitering on forums, I do want to play, but honestly? My heart just isn't in it anymore. I suspect I'll probably never reinstall, not even for another CB season, the game has run it's course, due to Wargaming's policies, that course ran itself through several years earlier than I had hoped it would. 

 

But as the French would say, c'est la vie...

[anonym_mlJIAFnOwMVb]

2 minutes ago, Reaper_JackGBR said:

And with our time. 

Wargaming has not seen a penny from me for a long time now, though I never paid too much to begin with, 90% of my premiums were earned/gifts/won in competitions. 

As for time. I uninstalled. Removes the temptation to start the game up 'every now and then' and frankly now that I have time to pay attention to my other games it's been rather nice. 

 

A very, very vocal section of this forum repeatedly warned (and inevitably debated among ourselves) Wargaming about the direction of the game for the last several years, this includes me. In the past year I feel that most people ramped up our opinions on quite a few things; Wargaming ignored every last piece of feedback, I even got Conway on the horn and I know others did and he confirmed passing on our comments or bug reports to devs and we have been summarily ignored by the devs for those years. I'm at a point where I'm obviously still loitering on forums, I do want to play, but honestly? My heart just isn't in it anymore. I suspect I'll probably never reinstall, not even for another CB season, the game has run it's course, due to Wargaming's policies, that course ran itself through several years earlier than I had hoped it would. 

 

But as the French would say, c'est la vie...

it's sad that there are those on this forum who shill for WG and tell a paying customer to shut their mouths rather than criticise the holy game devs.  It's maddening and we have every right to speak out when we put food on their tables.

[AgarwaenME]

WG that prem is too good, nerf it!

WTF WG YOU NERFED MY PREM!!! You were supposed to nerf the OTHER op prem!!!!!

[El2aZeR]

The question now is are direct nerfs a possibility without touching tier or will they just continue to up tier + slight/no buffs?

The latter would mean they can't really touch premium T8 CVs after rework balancing is complete as T10 is (so far) reserved for freemium ships and T9 has been removed for CVs. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[SirAmra]

Problem for WG is back in the day (wot) a Premium weren't supposed to be as good as a elited tank of same tier.

Along the way they ignored that and released more and more broken tanks.

That moved over here. They are now adressing it. 

And I believe in the EULA is says they can do so as they see fit. They own the rights to Balance their pixels.

U can argue that it's not vise....true. But it was sure as sh*** not vise to introduce tier for tier broken ships.

I own most of the ships mentioned here, and I have no problem seeing why they need to Balance stuff, even though I paid for some of them.

[Sir_Grzegorz]

4 hours ago, RAYvenMP said:

so yes, balance is important, but on the long run if WG will decide to follow this path, the amount of OP stuff they will start selling can rapidly increase and balance will be gone - why to even test ships anymore - just release them OP, cash out and balance after.

I don't have to be a marketing genius to see a effortless potential here.

That is one scary vision, that can actually come true. Do you really had to give them that idea?

 

I have stated it many times: nerf Kamikaze R (I have that one and boy it needs a nerf).

 

The worse thing is that they can sell ship in bundle and give cash only for the ship - so they will still earn money. Additionally they can lower the price of premium after 3 months, so even if they give back the money it will be actuall price of vessel not buyers price. Taking under consideration inflation and interest from money, they will earn even if they give back the whole amount of money. Scary vision.

[Gudgeon]

How many GC's are actually in the battle queue these days? I actually like to see them on the enemy team what I am in a tier 6 or 7. Does this ship break the mid tiers? No. All the tier 5, 6 and 7 BB's are ready to one shot the poor player trying to play cruisers in the mid tier.

 

And with the Kami, luckily I got mine for free, BUT THEY SOLD IT IN THE STATE IT WAS IN ALSO. SAME WITH ALL THE OTHER 'OP' ships. What about the Stalingrad? It is OK for Super Uni/Unicums to crap over tier 8 and 9's?

 

I hope the Royal Navy premium CV will be balanced correctly.......

[jss78]

It's a bit of a double-edged sword.

 

WoWS has often ended up in a tricky spot because premiums can't be touched. So we've had numerous ships pulled from sale altogether.

 

I have always favoured well-thought nerfs to both Belfast and Saipan, and I've paid money for both. I think it's great that CV rework has suddenly made the Saipan into an interesting but high-skill-floor ship.

Yeah this would alter stuff I paid for. But I'm ALSO, in the big picture, paying to have a good game to play. I do NOT want to play T5 ranked filled with Cesares and let alone the ridiculously stupid T7 ranked where all good ships are premiums. I do NOT want to play against a Belfast in a T5 DD, though I own one myself. I think it's a bit of a childish expectation to be able to pay money for an OP toy, and then throw a tantrum when this toy is modified a bit. A well-balanced game is more important.

 

I came to to WoWS from a F2P game where premium vehicles were subject to modification to maintain game balance, and this was clearly stated in the terms of sale. Everyone accepted this.  Of course you'd try to avoid this and only nerf premiums as a last resort, and you'd try to preserve their core gameplay identity.

[Gudgeon]

5 minutes ago, jss78 said:

It's a bit of a double-edged sword.

 

WoWS has often ended up in a tricky spot because premiums can't be touched. So we've had numerous ships pulled from sale altogether.

 

I have always favoured well-thought nerfs to both Belfast and Saipan, and I've paid money for both. I think it's great that CV rework has suddenly made the Saipan into an interesting but high-skill-floor ship.

Yeah this would alter stuff I paid for. But I'm ALSO, in the big picture, paying to have a good game to play. I do NOT want to play T5 ranked filled with Cesares and let alone the ridiculously stupid T7 ranked where all good ships are premiums. I do NOT want to play against a Belfast in a T5 DD, though I own one myself. I think it's a bit of a childish expectation to be able to pay money for a OP toy, and then throw a tantrum when this toy is modified a bit. A well-balanced game is more important.

 

I came to to WoWS from a F2P game where premium vehicles were subject to modification to maintain game balance, and this was clearly stated in the terms of sale. Everyone accepted this.  Of course you'd avoid this and only nerf premiums within reason, and try to preserve their core gameplay identity.

 

In sprint ranked at tier 5, I ranked out using my Nicolas, not my Kami or GC. It was the best tool in that situation, not the so called 'OP' ships. The Fiji is a better ship than a Belfast.....it has torpedo's that stop smoke clouds being rushed without risks, for one.