Everyone focused on the tier 10 carriers.

[DrMechano]

Lets be honest there, it's mainly the Haku that's the problem. The Midway doesn't get long range torps and has to close in with all the other planes. However people are crying that CVs are OP sure the tier 10 carriers (well the Haku) are but I take it none of you have been a bottom tier carrier. Being tier 6 in a tier 8 game or tier 8 in a tier 10 game basically means you might as well not be there unless some BB on the enemy team decides he wants to yolo off on his own. Even then AA specced Monties will shred tier 8 planes.

 

So here's the problem. CVs, when top tier, are ridiculous but when they're bottom tier, they're basically useless attack power wise because of the quickly escalating AA power (they can still spot but then you're just praying your team can basically carry you to victory). Being a tier 6 CV in a tier 8 game It feels worse than being a tier 6 BB in the same match. Why? The Fuso, New Mex and Normandie can all bring massive broadside firepower which can still delete high tiered cruisers if they screw up. The Warspite/Queen Liz and Bayern all bring 380mm guns which can bow pen +1 tier BBs and still give the tier 8s pause for thought.

 

Not only that we're now seeing the 'huddle' of everyone grouping up to stave off carriers...which means even if I could go for the same tier BBs, they're usually covered by top tier cruisers. Hell even DDs have learned to hang back at the start and stick with a buddy to avoid the now infamous rocket spam.

 

So what do we do in order to balance CVs so they're not god like when top tier but they're not Bantha doodoo when bottom tier?

[DDMafiaAssociateMember]

3 minutes ago, DrMechano said:

Lets be honest there, it's mainly the Haku that's the problem. The Midway doesn't get long range torps and has to close in with all the other planes. However people are crying that CVs are OP sure the tier 10 carriers (well the Haku) are but I take it none of you have been a bottom tier carrier. Being tier 6 in a tier 8 game or tier 8 in a tier 10 game basically means you might as well not be there unless some BB on the enemy team decides he wants to yolo off on his own. Even then AA specced Monties will shred tier 8 planes.

 

So here's the problem. CVs, when top tier, are ridiculous but when they're bottom tier, they're basically useless attack power wise because of the quickly escalating AA power (they can still spot but then you're just praying your team can basically carry you to victory). Being a tier 6 CV in a tier 8 game It feels worse than being a tier 6 BB in the same match. Why? The Fuso, New Mex and Normandie can all bring massive broadside firepower which can still delete high tiered cruisers if they screw up. The Warspite/Queen Liz and Bayern all bring 380mm guns which can bow pen +1 tier BBs and still give the tier 8s pause for thought.

 

Not only that we're now seeing the 'huddle' of everyone grouping up to stave off carriers...which means even if I could go for the same tier BBs, they're usually covered by top tier cruisers. Hell even DDs have learned to hang back at the start and stick with a buddy to avoid the now infamous rocket spam.

 

So what do we do in order to balance CVs so they're not god like when top tier but they're not Bantha doodoo when bottom tier?

I generally agree. I've had times when I've dodged all of a two higher tier ship's flak bubbles without taking damage, and the get my whole squadron wiped by their short range AA before I can release my payload. However, there are other times when I've been able to just brute force my way through and still have every plane led to drop with. Generally however, CVs lose planes at such an absurd rate when in +2 MM that they are almost completely incapable of dealing damage. However, I've only just unlocked the Lexington, and that thing (along with all of the other CVs I've played) is overpowered to a ridiculous degree when top tier. In my first match I did 60,000 damage in five minutes without really playing very well at all. The new CVs need +1/-1 MM.

[DrMechano]

Yup that's the problem, in the rare occasion I'm top tier in a Lexi or Shokaku, they're ridiculous. In +2 MM Dive Bombers are just useless, they spend so long over the target that most AA from a +2 ship of any sort usually just shreds them. I'm not entirely sure why they moved the heal from the DBs to the TBs.

[Gvozdika]

I dunno - using the Ranger/Ryujo I've found it be fairly MM proof even when bumped to T8. A T8 DD still gets the short end of the stick when the rocket planes show up. There is still the fact that you can waltz your way past the majority of the flak bubbles - this being the main plane killer - so a T8 ship is still very much vulnerable. 

 

I tend to play with torps + AP bombs on the IJN T6, rockets + dive bombers on the U.S..

 

Your mileage may vary of course - the hot fix shifting more damage to continuous aura AA may well also change matters.

[anonym_MermYt0R0qHj]

ive only got the t4 IJN one, admitedly im a complete noob but it seems even if i land everything very little damage is achieved and one flak burst will completely kill an entire wing

[valrond]

Well, I don't think that being top tier means they are ridiculous, they are just properly balanced. But when they are bottom tier, you can't do much. Any BB is better than a CV now.

[DrMechano]

I'm not a great carrier player by any means but we can see here in this (fairly awful replay of only 60k damage) the problems of a carrier being top tier. Especially towards the end. The enemy team had pushed into our cap while we were still fighting over theirs. Both myself and the Shokaku were, thankfully, pretty much right next to it behind an island...so what should have been a surefire win for this team, with 4 ships sitting in cap, sometimes 5 or 6, ended up being a loss because we were constantly able to flood them with planes. At one point in the replay you'll see me resetting 4 ships, one after the other.

 

Also, as Zumbledum points out, the tier IV Carriers are just awful. They do barely any damage and AA just needs to sneeze on them to kill them. They could at least give the tier IV a 2 torps per run style drop.

20190205_212423_PASA108-Lexington_22_tierra_del_fuego.wowsreplay

 

However if I'd have been bottom tier....yeah there was no hope in hell of achieving that sort of victory, thus we see the power balance problem.

[BLUB__BLUB]

LOL I played langley and I can do a regular 22k damage in it if the game is not a ROFLSTOMP. 

When it is, well, the BBs get a sniff of me and it's back to port pretty quickly because it is slow like hell. 

 

22-35k damage is really nothing to write home about...

what the hell do they use to deliver torps, looks like a Fokker Trimotor with only 1 engine left. 

 

 

[tadaMonika]

The problem is the "F" key. Would also love me some magic immunity-gtfo spell when I get spotted by radar or cv'S in my dd.

[DrMechano]

5 minutes ago, tadaMonika said:

The problem is the "F" key. Would also love me some magic immunity-gtfo spell when I get spotted by radar or cv'S in my dd.

Yes but you take that away from a bottom tier carrier in high tier match and chances are you'll see them deplaned pretty quickly, especially now that they're taking the damage from flak and moving it more towards continuous DPS which just makes being in a bottom tier carrier even MORE painful.

[Genie_of_the_Lamp]

imo playing high tiers for the normal classes with cv ingame is a right mess. I mat agree on the t4 but the higher y get the more unbalanced it goes in favour of the CV players who; I pointed out earlier are still in a learning curve.

 

And because planes can attack more then oncel  We spent more time dodging torps AND anticipate on plane movements instead of focussing on the enemy fleet.

 

Indeed Dd s tend now to stay with the main fleet instead of going to cap..... which is pretty nervebreaking and ammoying because games with dominance mode are now often more played passively and more defensive than ever before. That isnt good for the overall gameplay. Dd s have already hard work to cap with all the Radar etc. Its now becoming even harder.

[Linkaex]

To me the only times CV's are "OP" is when there's two of them. 

 

[Sargento_YO]

This shows that people would complain about anything...

Getting erased in two attacks? cry baby, cry, complain.
Getting sunk for damage over time? cry baby even more.

[colonel_duce]

complains are that whole game is now rigged, DDs are useless, usuall game tactics is gone, concealment is gone, and i wish you to play in FDG under constant attack from 2 hakus.

[Aotearas]

The below tier X CVs aren't in a much better balanced state. Even uptiered, since the vast majority of AA dps is now concentrated in flakbursts that can be dodged is basically useless unless AA RNG puts a flak screen right in front of your aircraft where you can't physically dodge it. Continuous dps isn't enough to properly ward off attacks, at best you force a bottom tier CV to limit his attack to two runs before recalling the remainder of the flight due to low plane HP.

Even a tier VI Ryuujou or Ranger can happily drop on tier VIII ships as long as they don't catch a facefull of flak and if they do, the difference between tier VI and tier X airplanes isn't that substantial given flak bursts will basically OSK everything caught in the explosion hitbox, even tier X aircraft with HP bonuses will just barely survive that and would fall swiftly thereafter to continuous dps chipping away what little remained of their airplane HP.

 

The fundamental problem is the AA system which is de facto All-or-Nothing, sprinkled with the usual dose of RNG on top (this time for flak hits, not critical plane damage as before the rework). As long as you don't get hit by flak, you can fly over ships far longer than you'd actually need to in order to make your 3-5 attack runs depending on plane type.

 

The only difference between CV tiers is that the damage potential increases the higher up the tiers you go, but what most people forget to put into that particular bit of the equation is that surface ship HP pools likewise increase with higher tiers so the effective damage stays largely the same.

 

 

The Hakuryuu is the sole outlier due to the longrange torp option allowing for players to drop two thirds of their ordnance completely outside AA range and only spending a fraction of their attack run time in AA range with the last flight before dropping and engaging in the return immunity phase. But honestly, doing that you trade effective damage output for plane survivability as dropping from longrange gives ships plenty of time to dodge and even with 50kn torps it doesn't take much to evade the longer ranged drops by sheer coincidence alone, nevermind evasive manouvers meant to actively dodge the airstrike.

So overall the much dreaded Shimairkaze isn't exactly the most reliable way to deal lots of damage unless you've got buttloads of highly cooperative targets that seem to have nothing better to do than try to catch all your torps.

[Smeggo]

Unfortunately the player-tier-population-pyramid is upside-down, so no matter if you play T6 or T8, you will be bottom-tier 2/3 of the time.

That's also my issue with the premium carriers. Being mostly useless in 2/3 of the game let's me thinking in refunding them if they stay that way - better exchange them with T10-carriers. 

[Genie_of_the_Lamp]

Nah thats BS/

 

The comment in the Shimaair video said (and hes fully right on that point)  that he was keeping the whole flock busy with the torpsoup which didnt really had a break.

 

By causing this the enemy ships werent able to focus on enemy ships properly. You can try focussing a far away target man when a squad of planes is diving on you; not one time but 3 times. He will keep you busy nicely. I experienced this ingame dodging plane after plane and finally i i got killed in a wide spread long ranged torps from a DD.

[Aotearas]

1 minute ago, Genie_of_the_Lamp said:

Nah thats BS/

 

The comment in the Shimaair video said (and hes fully right on that point)  that he was keeping the whole flock busy with the torpsoup which didnt really had a break.

 

By causing this the enemy ships werent able to focus on enemy ships properly. You can try focussing a far away target man when a squad of planes is diving on you; not one time but 3 times. He will keep you busy nicely. I experienced this ingame dodging plane after plane and finally i i got killed in a wide spread long ranged torps from a DD.

That's a side effect and though I'm sure you could abuse that in a division, I somehow doubt that reducing oneself to largely being a distraction so your team can do damage is going to gain much traction. I know I wouldn't trust random teammates, even at tier X, to properly capitalize on something like that, nevermind sacrificing my ability to do proper damage myself for it.

[ForlornSailor]

1 hour ago, DrMechano said:

Yup that's the problem, in the rare occasion I'm top tier in a Lexi or Shokaku, they're ridiculous. In +2 MM Dive Bombers are just useless, they spend so long over the target that most AA from a +2 ship of any sort usually just shreds them.

 

One of the problems, that was always there and has never been addressed. CVs always needed a +/- 1 mm, now more then ever before. But why type our fingers bloody, nothing will ever change, smug_octavian knows everything better.

[lankylad11_lankylad]

1 hour ago, colonel_duce said:

complains are that whole game is now rigged, DDs are useless, usuall game tactics is gone, concealment is gone, and i wish you to play in FDG under constant attack from 2 hakus.

DD's aren't useless.  just take one with defensive fire

[That_Other_Nid]

19 hours ago, lankylad11_lankylad said:

DD's aren't useless.  just take one with defensive fire

It's not that either.

 

Now I have a Gearing with DFAA and AA modules in the 2 and 3 slots. I average 40k damage and a 50% win rate, so as average as they come. 

 

Day one I was shooting down 20 to 33 planes every game, spotted constantly and taking a 2/3 k damage from rockets. The very rare carrier was actually sinking 3 or 4 ships and top scoring, most were mid to low in the pack. 

 

Second day I was shooting down less planes, but it was nearly always wiping out entire squadrons. Occasionally a carrier would get it;s attack though and take no damage in the process. Still perma spotted and taking 2/5 k damage from rockets.

 

Third day I was shooting down very little, taking average 2/5 k from rockets but was finally sunk by a carrier rather than being plastered due to the permaspotting.

 

Day 4 I went back to engine boost, but now I mostly play Pan Asian as the AA is solid and the smoke is a life saver with the perma spotting. Best so far was 21 planes in the Chung Mu, which again was a 9 plane and 12 plane squadron, cumulative damage out side those two squadrons is trivial.

 

Basically carriers stick a fighter consumable on each DD they pass over every time. 

 

My very minor fix.

Remove spotting from the CV and ship fighter consumables. No idea how to fix cowardly BBs, but that has hardly changed from before 8.0.0 anyway.

[Xevious_Red]

3 minutes ago, That_Other_Nid said:

 

Basically carriers stick a fighter consumable on each DD they pass over every time. 

 

Part of this is because they nerfed the fighters. In earlier test versions they were a huge squadron of absolute psychos who beserker raged after anything flying, and would decimate a squad in seconds, and chase anything across the map, frequently ending up 10-12km away from their patrol area.

 

In the current version they take a while to.show up, fly around not attacking, frequently fail to aggro at all, you can literally fly out of their circle and they'll leave you alone, and sometimes do next to no damage even if the enemy stays in the circle AND they aggro.

In short, they are really really rubbish at plane kills, except strangely other fighters.

 

So people now just use them as a spotting tool since thats about the only thing they're vaguely good at.

[eliastion]

21 minutes ago, That_Other_Nid said:

Remove spotting from the CV and ship fighter consumables. No idea how to fix cowardly BBs, but that has hardly changed from before 8.0.0 anyway.

The spotting-by-consumable now is just not needed. For ships it's useless as they don't spot torps anymore anyway. For planes it goes against the idea of "you no longer can hover in many places at once, spotting DDs while you occupy yourself with other tasks" that was one of the intended changes to the general mechanics.

 

Also, fighters should probably be less powerful but better at acquiring targets. It takes them forever - but when they do lock on, it's boom-boom-boom and (insert the number of planes equal to the number of fighters) just evaporate. I'm not sure how to balance this but it's an auto-defense system that's simultaneously extremely powerful (although takes down a strictly limited number of planes) and extremely unreliable (it's not rare to deliver a strike to a ship under fighter protection and manage to get away without aggroing the supposed air cover at all).

[El2aZeR]

I dunno, I like my Enterprise better than the Midway actually.

 

Please guys, don't you all act so surprised. 

[___V_E_N_O_M___]

@MrConway @Crysantos @Tuccy @Sub_Octavian

 

Wow, after playing days of ranked. I just popped into the random arena and what a sh!t storm that has become. Wargaming have literally sh!t on their own game and all their players, carriers owning the kill board I dont think so. No more money from me mateys, and all WarGaming emails are going straight to my auto-delete box. I have no time for you anymore.

 

Ill play co-op, ranked and clan battles. I literally dont care what you do to the game now as my enjoyment will not be affected by your crappy rework. Good day, Im free of you.