Giulio Cesare to be changed to T6.

[bombuhr]

Excellent!

Had no use for it, but now at tier 6 it'll be used in scenario battles.

[Praxics]

I was always the opinion Premium ships should be subject to balance changes.

A OP ship is still OP even if only a small percentage of player has access to it. Sale stops etc. are no balance tool.

 

There was a MMO called Pirates of the burning Sea.

It was set in the golden age of sail. Player choose a nation such as Spain, Britain etc. and build ships in a player driven economy. The end game was to conquer the ports of other nations in a big port battle.

One of the balance ideas was that 1^st rate Ship of the Line were so expansive to build that only few players would be able to take it to a port battle.

In the start that worked, however as the game progressed over time it became mandatory to show up to a port battle in a 1^st rate.

The lesson is that you can not balance something via the economy.

 

I own Giulio Cesare and I recognise its strength.

I currently have a 70% winrate in this ship and I had to level my commander on it as it was until Roma my only Italian ship.

It is a very strong ship and it may need some adjustments. I’m not against adjusting GC.

 

But as it is with WG: WG uses a sledgehammer to kill a fly.

Changing it from T5 to T6 is one hell of a change as it changes to a large part the environment the ship is set in thanks to the horrible MM.

Quite frankly at T6 I have enough premium ships, I like the ship on T5. I’m okay with adjusting the ship e.g. dispersion, rate of fire etc. to stay on T5.

WG should also take a good look at the players with this ship who make these statistics. I would like to consider myself a good player. Good player + strong ship + low tier/noob enemy = OP.

 

Then again I’m mostly done with WG and WoWS. I’m on my way out so do whatever the [edited]you want… like I care when the burning dumpster fire finally collapses.

[Funkyseas]

WG what are u doing with this game ????

 

I bought so many premium ships cause u sayed u never change (nerf) a premium ship, so i wanna support u.

But now u broke the trust in u if u change the Gulio.

If u rly change it i will stop to pay any cent for this game, not she is OP or not OP, its cause u sayed u never change a prem !!!!!!

U can check how many money u get from me, but if the change comes i 100% stop paying.

 

If more paying players stop paying, than u got a problem, cause the avg player pay maybe 10-20 bugs in 1/2 year, think about it

[Animalul2012]

Start nerfing premium ships and bye bye profit! and you might find out if you already did not that free to play players dont spend money on a free game!

Also to all these WG informats: Giulio op? Why dont you take a look at WOT and see how stupid broken premium are there? how every match has more premium tanks than standard ones. do these names is-3a. defender, skorpion,su 130, or heck almost any new premium that is way better in all departments than a standard one ring you something? 

And no i dont give a damn about: but this is wows not wot... well both games are owned by WG. So if you want to really nerf premiums start doing that in wot no here. 

I still believe the reason to nerf giulio is not because of balance problems but to make place for something else. 

However nerfing premiums will scare the customer, and all his hopes to buy a premium will be lost! why? well why should he or i buy now a premium ship if i know that it is going to be nerfed in the future? And i repeat free to play players wont keep you alive neither this game. suport your costumers, good or bad they give you money. If a ship is too strong stop selling it, or at least make it really hard to get it! BUT DO NOT NERF IT! IT WILL HURT THE CUSTOMER AND YOU!

[Procrastes]

I don't like the idea of changing the Giulio Cesare into a tier VI ship.

 

For one thing, I like the informal policy WG has of not directly nerfing premium ships. It is one of the general selling points, in that you can count on keeping what you get. Changes must obviously be accepted when something is so unbalanced that it affects the game negatively, but I don't really  feel that this is the case here.

Second, I like having a number of go-to premium ships on the different tiers. The Giulio Cesare is my go-to tier V battleship, and I already have any number of tier VI ships to choose from.

Also, the gameplay on tier VI is very different from what you typically find on tier V. Playing the Giulio Cesare as a tier VI ship will be a lot different from how she was before, irrespective of any changes to her own stats, due to the fact that she will now have to take on tier VIII ships as well as facing fewer tier IV ships.

[Skyllon]

1 hour ago, Funkyseas said:

(...)

But now u broke the trust in u if u change the Gulio.

(...)

Yeah... Until now WG was totally trustworthy...

 

48 minutes ago, Procrastes said:

For one thing, I like the informal policy WG has of not directly nerfing premium ships.

Selling point or not - it is a bad policy.

 

48 minutes ago, Procrastes said:

It is one of the general selling points, in that you can count on keeping what you get.

Hmm... Błyskawica? Stealth firing monster!

 

48 minutes ago, Procrastes said:

Changes must obviously be accepted when something is so unbalanced that it affects the game negatively (...)

Belfast?

[Procrastes]

2 hours ago, Skyllon said:

Selling point or not - it is a bad policy.

That depends on the perspective. If Wargaming wants to keep selling premiums, I believe they are wise to be careful about changing them afterward.

 

2 hours ago, Skyllon said:

Hmm... Błyskawica? Stealth firing monster!

That nerf was due to a sweeping change of the overall game mechanics, and not directed to one ship in particular. And still, there was an uproar...!

(For the record, I think the removal of open water stealth fire was a good thing, in spite of being a Blyska owner.)

 

2 hours ago, Skyllon said:

Belfast?

Good point. If this tier switch of the Giulio Cesare goes through without too much wailing and gnashing of teeth, the Belfast might well be next in line. Although I still think her biggest special power in the current meta, is the ability to 'draw fire'. As soon as a Belfast is spotted, everyone and their uncles let go of whatever they are doing, and start shooting at her. 

[Funkyseas]

2 hours ago, Skyllon said:

Yeah... Until now WG was totally trustworthy...

I dont have problems with wg and yes i trusted them, cause they say they never change a prem.

 

[Odo_Toothless]

Soon the Russian BB are coming. My bet is that after GC uptiering, would be a perfect time for WG of Imp. Nikolai reballance. So She can be moved to shop again.

[Amon_ITA]

Well, now they can start buffing underperforming premiums too.

 

Duca d’aosta and Duca degli Abruzzi please, and fast, thanks.

[CommanderCorrigan]

What a scam. They make them OP to milk players then nerf them after all this time. They will never see a single cent from me again. I agree there are some ships that are OP but this is Wargamings fault, not the players that are getting screwed.

[Animalul2012]

This is going what to happen in the future: 

We have moved or/and toned down all over performing premiums( you know who they are) now the game is more balanced.

Free to play player is happy! The customer that payed for those ships is not and swears for revenge: he will never spend money on WOWS ever gain: no premium time,no premium ships, no campaing.

WG sees that they re profits have gone down and they say: 

WG-1:the number of players spending money has gone down, we must do something!

WG-2:hmmm...hmmmm.....how about.... make an OP premium ship, everyone will buy that if they want to stay competitive and if they want to dominate and have fun at the same time.

WG-1: but we have nerfed premiums in the past because they turned out to be OP, even if we promised them that we will never do that again!

WG-2:WHAT? Thats it release a T9 ship that has everything and i mean EVERYTHING, add every consumable in the game on top of it! and say that we will never nerf it! NEVER again! 

WG-1: are you sure that it will work?

WG-2: yes it will, today we will release an OP premium ship, tomorrow another one, next week as well and same goes for the next month. Oh and we wil sell them ONCE, they will buy them because they want to stay competitive and who doesnt want to have an OP ships that wont get nerfed?

After release OP premiums. At first not many bought them, until they anounced that they are changing theyre premiums policy, that says they will never ever in god name nerf premium ships, only buff them, heck they even said that if a mechanic changes it wont affect the premium ships.

After months of releasing OP premiums, WG profits rise in a very positive way but at what cost? now every match almost all ships are premium. the standard ones have been powercreeped to hell, mm is now worse as your t8 ship sees 9 out of 10 times tier 10s. most t9 premiums cost real money now, no more free xp or coal. some people say they have plans to sell a t10 BB that gets all the consumables in the game. Premiums are no longer getting nerfed and WG is making profit! but at what cost? how long will the player base tolerate all these mistakes? Remains to be seen!

Now did you heard this story somewhere else? because i did and it is not ending to well.. for now!

 

You can still get those OP premiums in loot boxes if RNG is with you!

 

[invicta2012]

7 hours ago, Procrastes said:

I don't like the idea of changing the Giulio Cesare into a tier VI ship.

What would make her acceptable at Tier V? Could they offer a sister ship from the same class with less OP features and allow existing GC players to pick either of the new 'uns or get doubloons instead? 

 

It must be possible to make this work, as the Russian BB tree will have Ganguts at IV/V and VI....

[Animalul2012]

15 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

What would make her acceptable at Tier V? Could they offer a sister ship from the same class with less OP features and allow existing GC players to pick either of the new 'uns or get doubloons instead? 

 

It must be possible to make this work, as the Russian BB tree will have Ganguts at IV/V and VI....

It doesnt matter man, if this happens to giulio cesare others will follow. they already said that afer giulio belfast is the next one. and who knows maybe ships like kamikaze, missoury, black, kutuzov, konig albert will have the same fate. There will be nothing to do if giulio goes up to t6 and is nerfed!

[Miscommunication_dept]

Maybe we should be less worried about the Belfast:

Flint U.S.A. 140 971 63.47 % 1.25 58 302 1 792 4.17 2.37

Belfast U.K. 2 065 275 55.37 % 0.91 44 999 1 395 1.39 1.63

Boise U.S.A. 95 727 53.21 % 0.85 44 235 1 409 1.53 1.58

ARP Nachi Japan 52 754 53.07 % 0.76 40 213 1 205 1.16 1.24

 

 

Strong but not OP.

Kutuzov:

 

Irian Pan-Asia 2 557 51.90 % 0.79 52 511 1 672 3.89 1.27

Charles Martel France 1 729 835 51.83 % 0.65 47 441 1 326 0.84 1.12

ARP Takao Japan 1 454 431 51.26 % 0.60 40 209 1 203 0.65 0.97

Mikhail Kutuzov U.S.S.R. 3 256 779 51.20 % 0.66 47 249 1 352 1.85 1.17

 

Missouri:

Missouri U.S.A. 3 388 014 53.50 % 0.80 67 825 1 621 2.42 1.36

Musashi Japan 1 456 926 52.42 % 0.82 82 202 1 574 0.42 1.61

Alsace France 1 320 771 52.17 % 0.82 71 566 1 548 1.44 1.41

Jean Bart France 281 404 52.16 % 0.87 81 233 1 729 2.01 1.48

 

All of these look strong but not OP like the Giulio Cesare with it's 58% win rate:

 

Giulio Cesare Italy 1 076 248 58.04 % 1.22 54 840 1 283 1.52 2.63

Texas U.S.A. 1 155 667 53.59 % 0.82 40 327 1 139 2.92 1.58

Oktyabrskaya Revolutsiya U.S.S.R. 1 118 228 53.13 % 0.97 45 874 1 090 1.42 1.97

ARP Kongō Japan 1 525 969 52.86 % 0.81 38 762 947 1.27 1.62

 

Truly amazed to see Texas is second.

 

Food for thought...

 

Imperator Nikolai I U.S.S.R. 436 904 60.57 % 1.28 46 885 994 0.04 2.61

Arkansas Beta U.S.A. 1 112 064 53.63 % 1.00 37 120 867 0.00 1.86

Orion U.K. 1 400 668 53.27 % 1.09 42 525 761 1.22 2.19

Ishizuchi Japan 914 763 52.83 % 0.88 33 103 809 0.14 1.48

 

The Nikolai and GC look very OP from stats, to a much higher degree than the others.

This could all be due to seeing a lot of NOOBS at those low tiers.

[HaachamaShipping]

8 hours ago, Animalul2012 said:

Start nerfing premium ships and bye bye profit! and you might find out if you already did not that free to play players dont spend money on a free game!

And you don't have to be FTP to be interested in game balance. I'm a paying customer and for one, I prefer having people populating the game so I can play Giulio over it being broken in a deserted game. Second, I would prefer if ships don't start a continuous powercreep that cannot be stopped due to a silly policy.

8 hours ago, Animalul2012 said:

Also to all these WG informats: Giulio op? Why dont you take a look at WOT and see how stupid broken premium are there? how every match has more premium tanks than standard ones. do these names is-3a. defender, skorpion,su 130, or heck almost any new premium that is way better in all departments than a standard one ring you something? 

And no i dont give a damn about: but this is wows not wot... well both games are owned by WG. So if you want to really nerf premiums start doing that in wot no here. 

Even if both are owned by WG, it still justifies none of your points.

1 hour ago, Animalul2012 said:

This is going what to happen in the future: 

We have moved or/and toned down all over performing premiums( you know who they are) now the game is more balanced.

Free to play player is happy! The customer that payed for those ships is not and swears for revenge: he will never spend money on WOWS ever gain: no premium time,no premium ships, no campaing.

WG sees that they re profits have gone down and they say: 

WG-1:the number of players spending money has gone down, we must do something!

WG-2:hmmm...hmmmm.....how about.... make an OP premium ship, everyone will buy that if they want to stay competitive and if they want to dominate and have fun at the same time.

WG-1: but we have nerfed premiums in the past because they turned out to be OP, even if we promised them that we will never do that again!

WG-2:WHAT? Thats it release a T9 ship that has everything and i mean EVERYTHING, add every consumable in the game on top of it! and say that we will never nerf it! NEVER again! 

WG-1: are you sure that it will work?

WG-2: yes it will, today we will release an OP premium ship, tomorrow another one, next week as well and same goes for the next month. Oh and we wil sell them ONCE, they will buy them because they want to stay competitive and who doesnt want to have an OP ships that wont get nerfed?

After release OP premiums. At first not many bought them, until they anounced that they are changing theyre premiums policy, that says they will never ever in god name nerf premium ships, only buff them, heck they even said that if a mechanic changes it wont affect the premium ships.

After months of releasing OP premiums, WG profits rise in a very positive way but at what cost? now every match almost all ships are premium. the standard ones have been powercreeped to hell, mm is now worse as your t8 ship sees 9 out of 10 times tier 10s. most t9 premiums cost real money now, no more free xp or coal. some people say they have plans to sell a t10 BB that gets all the consumables in the game. Premiums are no longer getting nerfed and WG is making profit! but at what cost? how long will the player base tolerate all these mistakes? Remains to be seen!

Now did you heard this story somewhere else? because i did and it is not ending to well.. for now!

 

You can still get those OP premiums in loot boxes if RNG is with you!

 

This is utterly baseless conjecture. It has no logic behind it nor do you even explain how you get from OP premiums getting nerfed to OP premiums becoming standard.

 

You could at least try when coming up with your doomsday predictions.

[Tyrendian89]

13 minutes ago, Seiranko said:

This is utterly baseless conjecture. It has no logic behind it nor do you even explain how you get from OP premiums getting nerfed to OP premiums becoming standard.

 

You could at least try when coming up with your doomsday predictions.

plus it's factually wrong on several points, but hey - when's that ever stopped any whiners and ragers? One can even become President of the United States of Derpmerica with pretty much that kind of rhetoric...

[Procrastes]

14 hours ago, Animalul2012 said:

It doesnt matter man, if this happens to giulio cesare others will follow. they already said that afer giulio belfast is the next one. and who knows maybe ships like kamikaze, missoury, black, kutuzov, konig albert will have the same fate. There will be nothing to do if giulio goes up to t6 and is nerfed!

This is how I see it as well, I'm afraid. Given that the Belfast and the Kamikaze ships are arguably stronger on their respective tiers than the Giulio Cesare is on hers, I can't help but to feel that the plans for pushing the Giulio Cesare up to tier VI is some kind of test run, to see how the player base will react. If nothing else, it would set a regrettable precedent. Although it should be stated that Wargaming is of course free to do this - they are in no way bound to what was at the most an informal policy to begin with - I hope they won't go through with it.

[TheAlba2014]

The GC has been in the game for quite a while now, has it been known to be a strong ship even before it's release. Yes.

 

Has this driven players away or negatively impacted the game at those tiers? I don't think so.

 

So why are they attempting these changes now?

[invicta2012]

10 minutes ago, TheAlba2014 said:

Has this driven players away or negatively impacted the game at those tiers? I don't think so.

It's almost certainly have an impact somewhere, not least on the game economy and the amount of resources being generated. Nikolai should get the same treatment, of course, as both are ludicrously OP. I took a look at the MapleSyrup site for recent stats and, based on damage per game, Cesare and Nikolai outperform all other BBs at Tiers IV, V, VI and VII. The only Tier VIII which gets in front is Massachusetts/Mass B. They perform better than FDG, Iowa and Izumo,  which are flamin' Tier IX BBs. 

[TheAlba2014]

26 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

It's almost certainly have an impact somewhere, not least on the game economy and the amount of resources being generated. Nikolai should get the same treatment, of course, as both are ludicrously OP. I took a look at the MapleSyrup site for recent stats and, based on damage per game, Cesare and Nikolai outperform all other BBs at Tiers IV, V, VI and VII. The only Tier VIII which gets in front is Massachusetts/Mass B. They perform better than FDG, Iowa and Izumo,  which are flamin' Tier IX BBs. 

How many GC games were there? Is it a frequently played ship?

 

What do you mean impacted the game economy and resources generated?

[invicta2012]

Looking at this data set: http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20190209/eu_week/average_ship.html

 

GC is quite popular - 82 players, 1322 games. Nikolai much less so. 

 

12 minutes ago, TheAlba2014 said:

What do you mean impacted the game economy and resources generated?

 

Because she does so much damage and has such a high victory rate, Cesare generates credits and Free XP faster than any other Tier 5 BB, and faster than any other Tier V ship other than the broken DDs (Kami, Gremy). She averages more XP per game than most Tier VI and VII BBs, too. 

[Balin333]

The Nikoli had only 2 players and 29 games wow real game breaker certainly worth alot of effort.

 

[NothingButTheRain]

On 2/9/2019 at 1:33 PM, Funkyseas said:

WG what are u doing with this game ????

 

I bought so many premium ships cause u sayed u never change (nerf) a premium ship, so i wanna support u.

But now u broke the trust in u if u change the Gulio.

If u rly change it i will stop to pay any cent for this game, not she is OP or not OP, its cause u sayed u never change a prem !!!!!!

U can check how many money u get from me, but if the change comes i 100% stop paying.

 

If more paying players stop paying, than u got a problem, cause the avg player pay maybe 10-20 bugs in 1/2 year, think about it

I believe this is the better chocie compared to WoT where the OP premium tanks creates a P2W environment.

And having seen your list of premiums, it is quite extensive.

But if it were to happen on my own terms or expectations, the vast majority of your premiums would basically remain unaffected by this round of premium rebalances, permanently.

 

But like I said, for me there are some conditions. Only nerf the short list of top OP premiums and keep the rest as is. And don't release broken premiums anymore as the latter would defeat the suggested purpose of these nerfs in the first place (and this includes the future new premium carriers, of course).

 

Because having these OP premiums remain in the game will poison the game. Just look at what stalingrad is doing to clan battles. It's just discusting when a more casual clan battle clans simply can't get a team together (and some said they will take extended breaks) because most people are sick of keeping loosing to these stalingrad teams and this will also damage the game in the long run no matter how long your premiums remain unnerfed. So better do it now and get it over with and more players will enjoy it from that moment on.

[TheAlba2014]

58 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

Looking at this data set: http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20190209/eu_week/average_ship.html

 

GC is quite popular - 82 players, 1322 games. Nikolai much less so. 

 

 

Because she does so much damage and has such a high victory rate, Cesare generates credits and Free XP faster than any other Tier 5 BB, and faster than any other Tier V ship other than the broken DDs (Kami, Gremy). She averages more XP per game than most Tier VI and VII BBs, too. 

So your premise is that based on 82 players the ship should be altered for everyone?

 

With regards credit and free XP gain, regardless of how strong the ship is I think we can agree credit and free XP farming at T5 is not an efficient thing to be doing, hardly economy breaking.

 

https://wows-numbers.com/ship/3765384944,Giulio-Cesare/?order=battles__desc#leaderboard

 

There's already more games been played in the October Revolution. Looking at stats for the top 99 players by number of battles played I'd contend this shows that good players are good and bad players are bad regardless of ship. Does the GC allow players to have more of an impact at T5 than other ships there, absolutely.

 

But that's the point with those available numbers. Rather than looking at total damage or overall win rate, because relatively speaking there are fewer overall players that have a GC compared to the other T5 BBs, you'd have to dig deeper to see what players were achieving what stats. For example look at the top 99 players by win rate, I counted 2 players on that list with over 100 battles. By average damage, 9 players with over 100 battles, 1 of which is from OM.

 

We could argue about stats all day, and fruitlessly I might add without having access to a greater breakdown of the numbers.

 

TL;DR it's not as simple as looking at average damage or overall win rate, it's more complex than that.

 

It should be noted that's if you agree that altering premiums directly is a good idea to begin with, I don't.