Giulio Cesare to be changed to T6.

[Ronchabale]

4 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

The important thing here is that the CV rework has changed the game meta, so what was an OP ship might suddenly take a drop in efficacy. Belfast, for example, might attract some interest from rocket planes, smoke or no smoke. So the question is: is the GC still OP when there are new CVS?

GC was never very good against planes, being perma spotted doesnt help in the new meta, conceal was also one of its strengths

[TheAlba2014]

11 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

The important thing here is that the CV rework has changed the game meta, so what was an OP ship might suddenly take a drop in efficacy. Belfast, for example, might attract some interest from rocket planes, smoke or no smoke. So the question is: is the GC still OP when there are new CVS?

I asked MrConway about this earlier, his response was that the "new" GC won't enter live testing until after 0.8.1 so plenty of time to assess according to him, I hope he is right

 

Edit: post 318 from MrConway in this thread

[invicta2012]

2 minutes ago, Ronchabale said:

GC was never very good against planes, being perma spotted doesnt help in the new meta, conceal was also one of its strengths

They could tweak that a bit, too. Wikipedia mentions a plan to re-arm Conte Di Cavour with an improved secondary/anti AA suite. No-one is going to grumble about a small AA buff at the moment....

[Bmsrt]

Cant see they will refund any RL money.

They already pulled similar stun.In 8.0 whit Saipa/Kaga.

They now meet all the funy Minotaurs Worcesters etc...(all 3 Kaga games i had so far was T10...)

And now,patchnotes indicate IJN TB and torp ners(thy Hakuryu),probably affecting a prem ship perfomance in negative way,thats in the game i bought in the past.

(not a single line sates the Kaga excluded,but i assume its not)

Well dont offer to give me/others a refund in money,and they wont in the future thats shure as hell.

[Butterdoll]

1 hour ago, Seiranko said:

How so?, given your next sentence is...

which implies that it suffers vs BBs the same way a T6 cruiser does. Tell me, which T6 cruiser is anywhere as tanky as GC?

No it isn't, Normandie, West Virginia, Dunkerque all have not much better survivability. Some arguably worse. New Mex and Arizona only don't get mentioned with those three due to more hp, but they have way less HE resistance and no internal bow. PEF is only slightly better. Fuso and Mutsu got way more hp, but that citadel protection... Also Mutsu has way less HE resistance.

Most T6 BBs are less armoured than Bayern. Basically all T6 BBs are less armoured than Bayern. Arguing a ship is a cruiser and not a BB because it eats citadels more than Bayern is like arguing that North Cal is a cruiser cause it eats cits, unlike FdG. Ignore that North Cal bounces BB shells when angled, has way more hp and has a repair party...

Look, I'm not talking about specs or numbers.

 

which implies that it suffers vs BBs the same way a  as a T6 cruiser does

 

yes, that's it.

 

try to brawl with either one and you will see what I'm talking about.

My first battle with GC, the first thing that come to my mind was Pensacola. That was after Bayern and Gneisenau. GC is my first BB outside the German BB line that I played.

 

Fusos and Kongos do not appeal to me. And as a cruiser main I don't like them because against other BB they are  just like cruisers.

 

My first BB line that I grinded was the German one, and I'm a cruiser main. So it's natural that I would be shocked how bad they are against each other.

I have Langley, but for that to happen I had to grind the US BB line, but that's ok I was always curious about them.

I'm  at Wyomming and so far...let's say it's very different from what I'm use to.

At the last Halloween operation I played with Leviathan (I know it's a US BB ) and took me awhile to figure that out. I made good games with it but can be very squishy.

Just a few days ago, I shot two full salvos to a broadside of a Montana from my Bismarck.

first salvo, a citadel and 20k

second salvo, a citadel and another 20k

Which left me thinking if it's worth to grind the US BB line.

I've got Hosho too, but for that cv I just free xp it.

 

I played with Normadie, and I like it, it's fast and can manoeuvre but it's squishy.

 

So yes, apart from the Germans and from some other cases (like Amagi, e.g.)

There's not really much difference between a bb vs bb and a  cruiser vs  cruiser. Which is funny because as a cruiser all BBs are super though and take a long time to burn, but, once in a BB and vs other BB it's like you back to the square one, that toughness disappears, and some of them remember me  the t5 Omaha. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[_HMS_RICHY]

Well the way WG nerf ships I have little faith. And moving up a ship from tier 5 to 6 will need quite a lot of tweaking.

And when it comes to tweaking I don't trust WG.

The Hindy gets a good HE buff fine.

Then they said the Hindy was over performing so they nerfed it, then it was under performing so they buffed it again.

And the poor old Roon took the hit as well. Then it too got buffed.

Next they nerf the tier ten Pan Asian dd since this too was over performing. Then they nerf it with a hammer and no one hardly plays it.

Now you see why I can't trust them to balance it well.

 

[Gojuadorai]

7 hours ago, von_chom said:

if someone bought the ship with money, you should return money

 

this is the only way im remotely fine with it!

if you give me my money back ok then do it if you must even thoug i think its utterly stupid and nearly without benefit.

if you try to give me dubloons... im seriously considering to sue.

 

[Gudgeon]

6 hours ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

This was back when these four sisters were very close in ship stats, but performance stat were far different..  Kamikaze was not vastly superior to the Minekaze (9% better win rate), but the players were.  These ships are not OP, they just allow better players to excel than the masses. (A different issue).

 

2016/06/11 (Two months ending)

Ship                      Players         Games                Win Rate         Damage             Kills
Minekaze             4809            351283                   50.74             25029               0.84    
Fujin                        157              12937                   58.97             37778               1.28
Kamikaze                   1                  144                    59.72             38006               1.21
Kamikaze R          2679           224839                   56.32             34688                1.20

 

Exactly this. And premium ships allow a good captain to be used in it from say, your Shimakaze. The guy in the Minekaze may well be grinding the line and have a 10pt captain in and he is also still learning. Again, captain swapping into premium ships is another mechanic introduced by WG.......and players then get penalized for benefiting from the mechanic. I cannot see any reason to spend another penny in this game if the goal posts keep moving, through no fault of the players.... it is just wonky balancing/wonky mechanics controlled by WG and altered when it suits them, plus a widely differing skill level between given players on opposing teams, at all tiers. It is the Bourg's and Stalingrads that will break the balance at tier 10.......but hey they are steel ships.

 

Going on a match I played in the Duca tonight, you had better nerf the Duca and the Emerald......OP as hell. Actually, in the end, a BB sails straight for 5 minutes and takes my torps and people generally chuck their ships away....thanks for the win and 100K damage. Also +1 to the Emerald captain for doing what he did too.

 

 

[Xevious_Red]

While I dont own one Im not keen on the idea of them messing around which tier each ship is on. Some like the CV is fair enough since theres now no odd tier CV.

 

However the other premiums I have are for certain tiers for certain reasons, and its not just "lol for clubbing"  - some are for Ops. Some are for whatever season of ranked comes around. Some are so I can join my mate when hes playing low tiers. Some.are just so they dont have to be in a tier X game.

 

Id rather if they need to balance a ship that they do so, but keep it at its original tier.

[NothingButTheRain]

2 hours ago, Gojuadorai said:

 

this is the only way im remotely fine with it!

if you give me my money back ok then do it if you must even thoug i think its utterly stupid and nearly without benefit.

if you try to give me dubloons... im seriously considering to sue.

 

I read this suggestion in one of the streams, how about some sort of coupon with which you can buy something else from the premium shop?

[creamgravy]

8 hours ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

This was back when these four sisters were very close in ship stats, but performance stat were far different..  Kamikaze was not vastly superior to the Minekaze (9% better win rate), but the players were.  These ships are not OP, they just allow better players to excel than the masses. (A different issue).

 

 

The ships are not OP but the type 92 torpedoes they fire are (speed conversion error from beta, they should only travel ~52 knots in game)

 

To balance Kamikaze you'd give her torpedoes better suited for tier 5, not ones with tier 9 stats (no real counter play for new players)

[Grandexeno]

Couldn't it all of this be solved with the aforementioned "restricted MM"? So the GC itself isn't touched, and it is just "forced" to perform vs same tier or upper ones. THEN, you check for data, see if they compare to the "op data" from before, and only THEN, prolly, it's time to think to touch it.

I don't have a GC, but I agree with all posters who said that changing premium ships arbitrarily is detrimental to all parts (players AND WG).

 

This if the issue is really about balancing the ship: if it's about making space for other ships same tier to be bought, well, that's another story.

[Culiacan_Mexico]

5 hours ago, creamgravy said:

 

1. The ships are not OP but the type 92 torpedoes they fire are (speed conversion error from beta, they should only travel ~52 knots in game)

 

2.To balance Kamikaze you'd give her torpedoes better suited for tier 5, not ones with tier 9 stats (no real counter play for new players)

1. Game 'speeds' and accuracy are all about game balance, thus type 92 in game have a far larger detection rate than was historically accurate.

2.  Of the four sisters, Minekaze was the one publicly available and had a modest win rate of 50%.  If the ship was so OP, why did it have such a modest win rate?

 

There were a number of problems with how WG implemented the Japanese DDs, and this showed up when monitoring balance: they looked at the top, middle, and bottom 5% of games and compare performance to the ships peers.  The bottom and middle games were ok, but those top 5% were out of sync... the better skilled player could excel in these ship far more than they could in other ships. (RTS CV issue).  The could nerf Minekaze to try and bring the top 5% down to acceptable levels, but in so doing the would hurt the middle to lower skill players far worse... unbalancing the ship further.  

 

If the Minekaze sister was reintroduced as a silver line ship that players had to grind through, it would invariably in up with a near 50% win rate, because overall those ships were balanced (like RTS CVs), they just reward skill too well.

 

Note: if the actual concern is for new player, start by banning divisions... they a far more OP than any ship.

[Gudgeon]

11 minutes ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

1. Game 'speeds' and accuracy are all about game balance, thus type 92 in game have a far larger detection rate than was historically accurate.

2.  Of the four sisters, Minekaze was the one publicly available and had a modest win rate of 50%.  If the ship was so OP, why did it have such a modest win rate?

 

There were a number of problems with how WG implemented the Japanese DDs, and this showed up when monitoring balance: they looked at the top, middle, and bottom 5% of games and compare performance to the ships peers.  The bottom and middle games were ok, but those top 5% were out of sync... the better skilled player could excel in these ship far more than they could in other ships. (RTS CV issue).  The could nerf Minekaze to try and bring the top 5% down to acceptable levels, but in so doing the would hurt the middle to lower skill players far worse... unbalancing the ship further.  

 

If the Minekaze sister was reintroduced as a silver line ship that players had to grind through, it would invariably in up with a near 50% win rate, because overall those ships were balanced (like RTS CVs), they just reward skill too well.

 

Note: if the actual concern is for new player, start by banning divisions... they far more OP than any ship.

 

The sad fact is, the Kamikaze wave has been and gone in the game. The Kamikaze has been in the game for exactly 3 YEARS! How many players have quit the game, that won the ship in the in-game event of 2016? Only now people cry.....Could you win it from loot boxes.......Just like the GC could be won from loot boxes? Hmmm. Bank balance springs to mind. The ranked sprint seasons have caused this crap and I'm sorry, ranked battles are not really that important, just another tool to try and keep server numbers up in a world of no other content. WG really need to come up with something that makes people think, "I'm gonna play Warships, because it is fun!".

 

Yes, divisions are the real game breaker for other solo players. A lot of ships become 'OP' when played in a well organised division.

[Culiacan_Mexico]

5 minutes ago, Gudgeon said:

...The ranked sprint seasons have caused this crap...

Pretty much this. 

 

Players ran into veteran players out their Kamakaze R that wreck them.  Since most player will not admit them have deficiencies in their own skill... it must have been the ship, while the truth is most of those same Kamakaze R captains would have done the same in the Nicholas.

[Gojuadorai]

6 hours ago, NothingButTheRain said:

I read this suggestion in one of the streams, how about some sort of coupon with which you can buy something else from the premium shop?

 

the problem is  every compensation that ties my money to the game is not a refund! 

If they simply get to keep it  no matter what they do they can do anything  without ever owing you a refund!?
if they violate your trust and still get too keep your money  hell thats not a good basis for a business relationship.....

[SlingaDing]

The big issue here is that WG knew these premium ships were OP, that’s why they pulled them, and in doing so created a great desire for people to get hold of these ships. Had they not then centered Christmas solely around the chance of ‘winning’ (aka. Gambling) one of these ships there wouldn’t be so much of an uproar about this, but the fact is they enticed people to spend LOTS of money to get one of these ships, myself included, and now only a matter of weeks later they are talking of ‘dumbing down’ what they themselves admitted were OP in the first place!

 

This has got to be illegal in some way? I’m sure as hell not going to accept it if they go ahead with it, and will most certainly enquire with the relevant bodies in the UK as to the legalities of it all.

 

 

[250swb]

WG inflict the CV's on the game of real players so they can come up with a 'hotfix' (in the meantime you are paying for being the testbed), they put the GC into the game so they can later 're-balance' it after discovering it's OP, and there are many other instances of poor testing and not planing ahead,...... or so it seems.

 

I don't think this is poor testing and inability to predict ahead, WG are treating Premium Ships and new content as temporary boosters in much the same way you buy a premium speed booster, an extra fighter, etc., you buy them and you use them and then there're gone. It's the same with WoT, new content is always the must have with a whiff of OP'ness, players pay for it, and then it's gone in a nerf. You'd have to question after all this time what have WG been doing with their stats and graphs if they can't predict ahead the impact of the new content they introduce, unless we now accept it's not incompetence but intent. So that's how we need to think of buying anything Premium in the game, it's on temporary loan, useful for a short time, then puff!

[creamgravy]

1 hour ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

1. Game 'speeds' and accuracy are all about game balance, thus type 92 in game have a far larger detection rate than was historically accurate.

 

In game speeds are based on historical data, detection is based on in game speed/damage for balance.

At low tier everyone's getting used to slow but stealthy/low damage 50-57 knot torpedoes (easy to throw off aim with WASD) or slightly faster/medium damage 59-63 knot torps that have a large reaction time (enough time to turn in/dodge etc)

 

Adding stealthy, relatively high damage, 68 knot missiles you only see at tier 9/10 when your learning the game at tier 4/5 was a HUGE mistake.

 

1 hour ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

2.  Of the four sisters, Minekaze was the one publicly available and had a modest win rate of 50%.  If the ship was so OP, why did it have such a modest win rate?

 

Are you really asking why a low tier silver DD has a modest win rate?

[__Helmut_Kohl__]

@MrConway @Sub_Octavian @Ev1n 

 

I am a person who usually instantly buys the new stuff that you release. After putting some thought into it, I want to give you my honest feedback on this:

 

If you start doing it and only offer a doubloon compensation, the effect on me will proabably be that I cannot trust any new premium ship that you release.

 

If a ship seems very strong and interesting, I will just think:

"they just want to make some money with a shiny new premium, and then they will nerf it and offer me doubloons, of which I have plenty enough already...".

 

So it will lost likely change the way I behave as a customer. Trust in a product is important for my decision to buy something. 

 

[Culiacan_Mexico]

40 minutes ago, creamgravy said:

 

1. Adding stealthy, relatively high damage, 68 knot missiles you only see at tier 9/10 when your learning the game at tier 4/5 was a HUGE mistake.

 

 

2. Are you really asking why a low tier silver DD has a modest win rate?

1.  I couldn't say if it was a mistake, just that the average player using them with the Minekaze had a 50% win rate.

2. I was asking rhetorically.  If four ships are near identical, and the silver version has a significantly lower win rate, then obviously what is OP in these ships is the players.

[NothingButTheRain]

2 hours ago, Gojuadorai said:

 

the problem is  every compensation that ties my money to the game is not a refund! 

If they simply get to keep it  no matter what they do they can do anything  without ever owing you a refund!?
if they violate your trust and still get too keep your money  hell thats not a good basis for a business relationship.....

I guess that in my particular case, perhaps I don't even absolutely need a refund in euros. The thing is, I already spend the money (bye money!) and I already played a ship with that money. I think getting back some value which I can spend in the premium shop (without any expiration date, mind you) would be fine for me.

But if you want to slam your fist on the table and demand cold hard euros, fine with me. I don't work for WG or anything so it's not really my problem and I respect your opinion.

But we agree on a lot of things at least.

[carnivorous]

I think rebalancing premium ships is a good idea. Especially when it comes to lower tiers, having already overperfroming ship statwise combining it with captain with skills others do not have (like CE) makes lower tier gameplay really terrible experience. I don't think moving GC to T6 is going to be a big deal or change the gameplay too much.

[Gojuadorai]

34 minutes ago, NothingButTheRain said:

I guess that in my particular case, perhaps I don't even absolutely need a refund in euros.

i dont need it thats not the point

Quote

The thing is, I already spend the money (bye money!) and I already played a ship with that money.

this is also not the point youre not paying for the time, its not a lease, its a purchase.

i also had great fun in my GC but that is not what i bought.

i did not buy x houres of that ship.

the sold a product and then changed it

 

how would you feel if you bought a porsche and 1 year later mechanics show up, change a pice and now you have 100hp less?

and then they tell you: "heres a porsche voucher for the online store you can buy a watch and some knives there!" ?????

you had a year of fun in it right? so its ok?

 

Quote

I think getting back some value which I can spend in the premium shop (without any expiration date, mind you) would be fine for me.

if thats ok for you i cant tell you otherwise for me its not.

lots of basic principles (of doing business) are violated in this day and age of the internet and im not willing to take it

 

Quote

But if you want to slam your fist on the table and demand cold hard euros, fine with me. I don't work for WG or anything so it's not really my problem and I respect your opinion.

But we agree on a lot of things at least.

yeah i get your side i just hope that "you" are not to many so my side still gets heard.

[BlackYeti]

Nevermind the fact how long it took them to admit its broken I guess GC will still cr*p all over PEF, Funkerque and the like at tier 6. Though I hope the latest Dunk BUFF is just the beginning.