an idea for the CV spotting problem

[elblancogringo]

Hi guys

A lot of people are concerned about how CVs can spot constantly after 0.8 release, which is obviously a failure, as one of WG justification for the rework was to adress this issue.

I saw Flamu this afternoon doing more than 150k spotting damage with a CV while not even trying to do it.

So I want to relay one idea, that @puxflacet wrote in the hotfix thread. Here is what he said:

 

"They simply can not spot for the team. At least not permanently. Give them consumable, like "transmit coordinates", which they can use for limited times and for limited duration when really needed, basically same way as radar. But they shouldnt be spotting all the time.."

 

What do you think about this idea of consumable, allowing the spotting for a fixed duration, and preventing them to spot the enemy ships the rest of the time?

I find this idea extremely interesting.

[wilkatis_LV]

Yes, even more reductions of teamwork is exactly what we need

[SkollUlfr]

i suggested to use the WoT radio mechanic so the carrier has to be in range of the planes radio to properly relay position anywhere but the minimap.

since it would fix the perma spotting problem suffered by dd and cruiser, but also deny coward bb hiding on the back line visability on any targets.

[Pikkozoikum]

44 minutes ago, elblancogringo said:

Hi guys

A lot of people are concerned about how CVs can spot constantly after 0.8 release, which is obviously a failure, as one of WG justification for the rework was to adress this issue.

I saw Flamu this afternoon doing more than 150k spotting damage with a CV while not even trying to do it.

So I want to relay one idea, that @puxflacet wrote in the hotfix thread. Here is what he said:

 

"They simply can not spot for the team. At least not permanently. Give them consumable, like "transmit coordinates", which they can use for limited times and for limited duration when really needed, basically same way as radar. But they shouldnt be spotting all the time.."

 

What do you think about this idea of consumable, allowing the spotting for a fixed duration, and preventing them to spot the enemy ships the rest of the time?

I find this idea extremely interesting.

The one side says, that the spotting is too much and op, the other side says, that CV is dumbed down and no spotting/teamplay. How to fix that :D

 

Actually I thought about to make the spotting like the upcoming radar change. That CVs spot only for themself, and only for allies on the minimap. But If there are cool consumables, I would like that as well. I think there should be way more consumalbes and more options to get more variety

[FerrowTheFox]

As I've suggested in the CV thread, you could have the map updated with last known position markers only after the current flight returns to the deck.

The CV player would see all ships he detects in real time, but the allied fleet would only get that information on the map once the planes return and the 'CV commander transmits the intel to the fleet'. If the planes are lost en route the intel is lost as well.

 

It's not entirely historically accurate as planes should have radios as well, but let's just assume there's too much jamming to handle for the smaller tranceivers on the planes However it would also mean actually returning the planes is rewarded more.

[DFens_666]

Imo there are several issues with changing the spotting mechanics:

 

- If the CV spots for himself, it reduces the teamplay entirely from the CV. They are already doing their own stuff, without it, it gets even worse.

- Consumable for spotting would need to be on CD when the game starts, otherwise we are back to square one. Imo initial spotting with tactic relay to your team is HUGE (atleast for good players)

- Making CV spotting Minimap only -> same issue as above. Bad people dont understand minimap, good players can still use that info to their advantage.

- Either way, CV divisions using voice chat will have an even bigger advantage, as they simply can tell their division mates whats going on.

- Either solution is counter-intuitive for the playerbase. (usually WG throws this around at every possible opportunity, here i think it actually makes sense). Planes not spotting torps is causing trouble right now, even for unicums like Flamu. Think it was yesterday he was surprised that torps werent spotted from the plane. Ofc, Unicums will adapt to this rather sooner than later, but average/casual players might not realize it ever (?), or they simply wouldnt understand the reasoning behind it.

- Fighter plane consumable cant spot ever i suppose? Ok, this is maybe questionable as it is, maybe they shouldnt spot. They are like deployable radar currently.

 

I just think, all options are either bad or counter-intuitive. But how to balance it otherwise? Cant tell... I think we need MUCH lower air detection for all ships, and make planes either slower or have a delay when the game starts. But the latter is kinda stupid, because what is the CV supposed to do in the beginning then?

 

[That_Other_Nid]

21 hours ago, FerrowTheFox said:

As I've suggested in the CV thread, you could have the map updated with last known position markers only after the current flight returns to the deck.

The CV player would see all ships he detects in real time, but the allied fleet would only get that information on the map once the planes return and the 'CV commander transmits the intel to the fleet'. If the planes are lost en route the intel is lost as well.

 

It's not entirely historically accurate as planes should have radios as well, but let's just assume there's too much jamming to handle for the smaller tranceivers on the planes However it would also mean actually returning the planes is rewarded more.

 

 

Cute. It will save DDs a lot of hassle, which is the main issue at the moment. Basically planes were radio silent except for actual spotting aircraft who had a specific person on the ship to talk to.  Updating the mini map as each flight arrives back would be quite realistic and spay carrier spotting into the ground. 

 

 

 

[El2aZeR]

Wanna know what this doesn't factor in?

Communication.

 

What prevents me from simply typing stuff out really quick (aside from a 10/10 chatban ofc because I once again dared complain about the BBs camping behind my CV)? Just mark a grid on the minimap and type out what ships are there. That can easily be done in a few seconds.

And will this not increase the impact of divisions with voice comms dramatically?

 

Quite frankly I see nothing good coming out of this. Potatoes and players who can't type fast will simply leave their team in the dark while CV spotting impact is undiminished for someone who actually uses the chat. And ofc divs with VOIP will continue on happily.

[AirSupremacy]

If CV plane squadrons had limited fuel, then some CV players would make less use of the "Afterburner" speed. A squad fuel gage idea could even allow the player to reduce the stock airspeed in order to save fuel, thus making it more vulnerable during cruise travel.

 

I would also love the idea of manual squadron CV return approaches and having a fixed amount of planes on the CV - How it used to be. This would make airplanes very valuable and stop the nonstop wild wasp attacks of ships.

 

One of my defaults is to dual chain strike 2 CV`s within 40 seconds via "Afterburner", its also possible to sink 1 enemy CV in 60 seconds after match start, I've done it a few times.

[tenacious_torps]

How about this?

 

1) limit the radio range of planes. real time spotting of enemy ships - as in them actually rendering to be shot at - only inside of x km from the closest friendly surface ship. otherwise you only get positions on minimap, once planes get close enough to transmit them.

2) planes can only transmit real time positions, while being unspotted themselves.

3) rewards for spotting damage need to increase significantly

 

This way we have a necessity for teamwork to get something out of plane's spotting ability and an incentive against the ever more passive meta. We also break up the one-dimensionality of CV gameplay.

 

Opinions?

[Gudgeon]

The WOT spotting mechanic with radio range and even a maximum spotting range (it is 445M in tanks for example , I think) seems to be the best idea. I still think the best option is to remove CV's altogether. The RTS style fits the game better than this new version, mainly due to the CV's countering themselves and a CV could prevent spotting of his teammates by airspace control.

[Saltface]

Dear All,

 

In what regards the "spotting" issue let me put forward some thoughts.

In my line of thinking I had first to evaluate the following arguments:

 

i. "it is an arcade game not a simulation";

ii. "the game is not restricted by absolute historical accuracy";

iii. "the game carries a naval warfare aroma and is advertised as such".

 

The above are facts and one either accepts them and continues to play or one doesn't.

 

Let's see now the issue of "spotting"

 

The position (fix) of any object (be it a vessel, a hazard, etc.) at sea is given by means of latitude and longitude. 

This way any mariner can put it on the map. The fact that one knows a vessel's fix does not mean that one can see the said vessel.

This is the counter-intuitive issue with the "spotting" mechanism that is currently being applied in the game. One vessel of the team can see a vessel and consequently all members of the team can see it also.

I am using the term "see" broadly. Locating/spotting a vessel by means of Hydro or Radar or any other consumable or skill for that matter will function in the same way. 

In my humble opinion this is the root of all evil.

 

However, in our game, under conditions of reduced visibility the system functions correctly. When a team member can see a vessel, this vessel is only rendered in the mini-map with an outline and not in the worldview. Same applies to our own team vessels. They are outlined green. We know where they are but we can't see them.

This is very correct. Actually this simulates the true flow of information. One vessel can put a "fix" on a vessel and report it to team members and they can plot it on their maps. Actually this is the simplified function of the "CIS" on a naval vessel.

 

This should be the case of CV spotting (and of all spotting to my humble opinion). They spot, they report and the rest of the team plots the reported position on the mini-map. Not the world view. Same as storm conditions.

I will extend this a bit further. This should be the case of Hydro and Radar consumables as well.

 

A few more words about these two consumables. When a vessel operates an active detection system then this ship reveals its own position. If instead of listening to my passive sonar (in this case I don't give out my position) i operate my active sonar (Hydro) I do have better detection abilities but everybody now knows where I am. Same with Radar. The moment you turn it on and you start emitting electromagnetic waves everybody can locate the source of the said waves. And as each Radar has its own signature they know what kind of radar it is. And of-course they know which ship carries which Radar. This is why actual naval vessels make use sparingly.

{edit by Saltface: if you operate your hydro or your radar you should reveal your position not maintain your stealth}

 

To conclude, knowing where a vessel is does not mean you can see it. These are two different things.

If the differentiation of these two notions found application in the game I strongly believe that most problems would be solved. 

 

The following summarizes my proposal:

 

Rule 1. If you can see it then what you see is depicted in the mini map solid red and it also renders in world view. For your team mates Rule 2 below applies.

Rule 2. If your team mates can see it, but you can't, it is depicted on the mini-map as outlined red and it doesn't render in the world view. For your team mates that can actually see it, Rule 1 above applies.

Rule 3. If no one can see it then only last known position is shown with a gray outline on the mini map.

Note: "seeing" includes as above hydro, esm, cv spotting, radar etc.

 

Regards,

Saltface

 

 

 

 

[puxflacet]

13 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Yes, even more reductions of teamwork is exactly what we need

You really think that their spotting currently have anything to do with teamplay? And wouldn't be the consumable actually more teamplay oriented? Because the whole point of it is to spot when the team really needs it, while not breaking the spotting mechanic all the time.

[OTECa1]

21 minutes ago, puxflacet said:

You really think that their spotting currently have anything to do with teamplay? And wouldn't be the consumable actually more teamplay oriented?

Not as pre-0.8.0. but Yes. No.

[Beastofwar]

I like the idea of the WOT method of radio range too. At least that has something to do with how thing worked in the real war(s) and can be stomached by those that actually like CV gameplay. Ofcourse aircraft high in the air will still have some reasonably large radio range. But less then now.

 

Previous RTS aircraft spotted DD and fleets for eveyone to shoot at too. It is the time they take to be over enemy ships that has changed. A slight launching delay ( like in RTS mechanic ) can already make a difference too.

 

You can't nerf aircraft speed with FLAK and AA mechanics as they are. Without speed they will be shot down without any chance, robbed from oppertunity to go around strenghened AA sectors or position themselves in a good launching position as enemies full rudder evade.  And that ruiins CV gameplay, which certainly isn''t an option either although many would not care.

 

 

[159Hunter]

There is an issue with the deployed fighters. They probably shouldn't be spotting for anyone.

 

Short version:

• The other planes: I don't see an issue.

Long version:

• When AA gets balanced enough that planes can't keep hovering over enemy ships,
• When the air detection of ships gets adjusted to account for shorter AA range (or the AA range can once again be enlarged with one of the (currently) useless 4pt skills),
• Maybe even add a small delay as they did with radar,
• If those conditions are fulfilled: I refer to the short answer.

[Beastofwar]

15 minutes ago, 159Hunter said:

• When AA gets balanced enough that planes can't keep hovering over enemy ships,

 

That "hovering" would be multiple attack passes. It is part of the new mechanic as only 2-3 planes of the formation actually attack. To deliver all weapons like before in RTS mechanics you need at least 3 passes over the enemy. Right now one pass is already challenging for some ship types. Never being able to reach your target ( Co-op is like that currently, bots are better at AA then you ) ruiins all effort WG took to change CV play.

 

If you always kill aircraft before they can do that, CV play is ruiined and the whole new mechanic broken. In that case they would have to bring back the old system that makes aircraft WAY MORE POWERFUL as they lauch a WALL OF TOPRPEDO"S in one go. Would you really want that (back ? I really hated that as a BB previously.

 

And about hovering over enemy ships ( DD actually ) THE OLD RTS MECHANIC  FIGHTERS DID THAT !!!!! Because spotting was one of the best things they could do for their team begin match, and they had no anti ship weapons.

 

 

[159Hunter]

1 minute ago, Beastofwar said:

 

That "hovering" would be multiple attack passes. It is part of the new mechanic as only 2-3 planes of the formation actually attack. To deliver all weapons like before in RTS mrcanics you need at least 3 passes over the enemy. Right now one pass is already challenging for some ship types. Never being able to reach your target ( Co-op is like that currently, bots are better at AA then you ) ruiins all effort WG took to change CV play.

  

If you always kill aircraft before they can do that, CV play is ruiined and the whole new mechanic broken. In that case they would have to bring back the old system that makes aircraft WAY MORE POWERFUL as they lauch a WALL OF TOPRPEDO"S in one go. Would you really want that (back ? I really hated that as a BB previously.

 

 

I don't care about attack waves, what I do care about is that whilst you are attacking one target, your planes can just be in the AA bubbles of multiple other ships (aka the hoovering) without impunity as long as you dodge the flak. Do something about this and you'll (partially) resolve the spotting issue.

[Beastofwar]

8 minutes ago, 159Hunter said:

I don't care about attack waves, what I do care about is that whilst you are attacking one target, your planes can just be in the AA bubbles of multiple other ships (aka the hoovering) without impunity as long as you dodge the flak. Do something about this and you'll (partially) resolve the spotting issue.

 

That is not true. When having passed the heavy long range cloud burst flak ( often instantly killing when hit ) you enter in continuous damage ( medium and short range AA ) bubble  that always hit you. The longer you remain in there the more aircraft you lose.

 

And killing much faster then in the old RTS mechanic way, where fighters could really hover over DD and took many minutes if left for the DD to chip away with their pathetic AA. By then they would already be sunk by allied shipping. So the situation has improved, but the rockets make it feel worse.

[thiextar]

No reason carriers shouldnt be able to spot, issue is that they come back so fast after shooting/getting shot.

 

Drop their speed by half and compensate in other means, and they can keep their spotting capability

[TeaAndTorps]

1 hour ago, tenacious_torps said:

How about this?

 

1) limit the radio range of planes. real time spotting of enemy ships - as in them actually rendering to be shot at - only inside of x km from the closest friendly surface ship. otherwise you only get positions on minimap, once planes get close enough to transmit them.

2) planes can only transmit real time positions, while being unspotted themselves.

3) rewards for spotting damage need to increase significantly

 

This way we have a necessity for teamwork to get something out of plane's spotting ability and an incentive against the ever more passive meta. We also break up the one-dimensionality of CV gameplay.

 

Opinions?

I would say I can see the first working alright – you want intelligence from planes, you'll need to stop camping in spawn. Not a fan of the second though, as any planes in a position to achieve anything useful will generally be spotted. Agree generally about rewards for spotting damage, but it doesn't feel that important to this particular discussion – but maybe I've just failed to understand properly?

 

1 hour ago, Gudgeon said:

The RTS style fits the game better than this new version, mainly due to the CV's countering themselves and a CV could prevent spotting of his teammates by airspace control.

Yes, this.

[159Hunter]

2 hours ago, Beastofwar said:

That is not true. When having passed the heavy long range cloud burst flak ( often instantly killing when hit ) you enter in continuous damage ( medium and short range AA ) bubble  that always hit you. The longer you remain in there the more aircraft you lose.

And unless you have DFAA on your cruiser or DD, this continuous AA does jack crap. Only BBs have somewhat decent values. 

2 hours ago, Beastofwar said:

And killing much faster then in the old RTS mechanic way, where fighters could really hover over DD and took many minutes if left for the DD to chip away with their pathetic AA. By then they would already be sunk by allied shipping. So the situation has improved, but the rockets make it feel worse.

Yes, but then a DD could ask for support from his CV. Or he could approach a cruiser (who had longer AA and that AA murdered the old planes a lot faster than the current AA does). Cause yes, the old CVs were brutal at murdering solo players, something half the playerbase never understood, hence why they got murdered by CVs.

The situation has most certainly not improved for DDs. A CV that focusses a DD will:

- spot him a lot faster (I mean, he will have planes over a cap in 30 sec, be on the DD in about 40 - 50 sec ).

- keep him spotted for a long time (to execute his multiple attack runs)

- have planes on the DD a lot faster (in old times the time between strikes was measured in multiple minutes, now it'll take the CV 30 - 40 sec unless if the DD runs back all the way into his spawn).

So plz, enlighten me on how the new situation is better for DDs.

[BLUB__BLUB]

This is an easy fix... but it would need some thinking/rework.

 

Say that the range of AA = the range at where a ship can be spotted?

Also - planes usually had some 'altitude', that is, being able to vary it....

Spotting at high altitude --> spot everything only from 3km?

And to be able to spot, you need to go lower... and be exposed to AA.

 

 

[puxflacet]

3 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

This is an easy fix... but it would need some thinking/rework.

 

Say that the range of AA = the range at where a ship can be spotted?

Also - planes usually had some 'altitude', that is, being able to vary it....

Spotting at high altitude --> spot everything only from 3km?

And to be able to spot, you need to go lower... and be exposed to AA.

 

 

That wouldnt fix a thing about current issue + CVs would be unable to plan their approach. That would dumb down the gameplay even further while it desperately needs the exact opposie - to be more deep and more tactical.

[wilkatis_LV]

6 hours ago, puxflacet said:

You really think that their spotting currently have anything to do with teamplay?

It may be completely accidental most of the time, but they're still spotting for their team. That's already more than nothing

 

6 hours ago, puxflacet said:

And wouldn't be the consumable actually more teamplay oriented?

Consumable which most players wouldn't use / would misuse? Yeah, no