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Vlad_stolichnaya

AA still needs balancing

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LOOK if an AA cruiser like Cleveland with flags and using the AA boost when attacked struggles to shoot down more than 1 aircraft attacking it from a same tier carrier  this is not realistic at all

these ships were used to protect themselves and the fleet from kamikaze attacks and did very well this is going to need more sorting out it's to Beeped up atm

 

n if that's all the Cleveland can manage what chance do any destroyer players have I think any update that makes it virtually

useless to play a whole class of  ships is idiotic at minimum

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12 minutes ago, Vlad_stolichnaya said:

LOOK if an AA cruiser like Cleveland with flags and using the AA boost when attacked struggles to shoot down more than 1 aircraft attacking it from a same tier carrier  this is not realistic at all

these ships were used to protect themselves and the fleet from kamikaze attacks and did very well this is going to need more sorting out it's to Beeped up atm

 

n if that's all the Cleveland can manage what chance do any destroyer players have I think any update that makes it virtually

useless to play a whole class of  ships is idiotic at minimum

I agree, but it is not the experience I have with a Cleveland. 

The thing is normally a full health Cleveland will shoot down your whole squadron. 

But if it has been hit by HE and half health, the AA guns might be shot - and then it happens like you said.

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14 minutes ago, Vlad_stolichnaya said:

n if that's all the Cleveland can manage what chance do any destroyer players have I think any update that makes it virtually

useless to play a whole class of  ships is idiotic at minimum

Provided the DD has any AA worth mentioning (so, not Kagero with its lack of explosions), about the same, because either CV is good and just dodges flak bursts, or they are not and fly into them, losing ~5 planes in one go. If I remember correctly Cleveland has 7 long range bursts and 9 mid-range bursts. I would need to check, but I'm pretty sure you can get like 7-8 bursts on an Akizuki (Harekaze with mod gets 6, that I know) with a long range that is not compromised by mid-range that the IJN DD does not have. That's enough bursts to wreck those who fly into the flak anyway, while for the rest... AA might as well not exist on either ship.

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At the moment long range flak is pretty useless - at 5km planes are actively dodging and can just fly around the flak. Midrange/shortrange are the best ones - mid because when planes lock in for an attack they cant really dodge and short because planes generally have to fly over you.

 

If I lose planes to a flak burst it will usually be a mid range one that pops infront of me as im on a torp run and therefore cant dodge it (altering speed sometimes helps at this point. Sometimes)

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6 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

I agree, but it is not the experience I have with a Cleveland. 

The thing is normally a full health Cleveland will shoot down your whole squadron. 

But if it has been hit by HE and half health, the AA guns might be shot - and then it happens like you said.

Surface ships run out of HP, consumables and modules. Their effectiveness is reduced with each damage trade. Do CV's currently ever run out of planes enough to be defenseless or seriously handicapped?

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25 minutes ago, Vlad_stolichnaya said:

LOOK if an AA cruiser like Cleveland with flags and using the AA boost when attacked struggles to shoot down more than 1 aircraft attacking it from a same tier carrier  this is not realistic at all

these ships were used to protect themselves and the fleet from kamikaze attacks and did very well this is going to need more sorting out it's to Beeped up atm

WARNING: digression that has little to do with the issue of AA balancing.

Are you sure you want to use realism as the gauge for how many planes you should be downing? Are you REALLY sure of that? Because historically ships weren't really shooting down as many of them as WoWs AA cruiser performance might've led you to expect...

 

Appealing to "realism" in things regarding balancing tends to be a risky thing. Not to mention that it misses the point. If we need AA cruisers to be able to protect themselves better, it's because we believe that to be better for the game, NOT because of real-life "balancing" of these things.

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1 minute ago, eliastion said:

WARNING: digression that has little to do with the issue of AA balancing.

Are you sure you want to use realism as the gauge for how many planes you should be downing? Are you REALLY sure of that? Because historically ships weren't really shooting down as many of them as WoWs AA cruiser performance might've led you to expect...

 

Appealing to "realism" in things regarding balancing tends to be a risky thing. Not to mention that it misses the point. If we need AA cruisers to be able to protect themselves better, it's because we believe that to be better for the game, NOT because of real-life "balancing" of these things.

And RP3 rockets couldn't hit a barn door!

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11 minutes ago, Europizza said:

Surface ships run out of HP, consumables and modules. Their effectiveness is reduced with each damage trade. Do CV's currently ever run out of planes enough to be defenseless or seriously handicapped?

 

I think you have to ask those players who say "CVs are too weak". They are the ones dieing to AA. Good CV players dont die to AA becauey they dodge it or press "F".

Thats why, AA cant be balanced anymore. Its too punishing for bad players, but not punishing enough for good players. You would have to make it so strong that it will kill any plane instantly :cap_fainting:

 

Or quite frankly, the only way to balance it, would be to remove flak bursts and make it DPS only. Then you could atleast work with the AA values you got, and you could calculate if skilling for AA is worth it. At the same time, it would be more balanced regardless of the CV players skill.

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13 minutes ago, Xevious_Red said:

At the moment long range flak is pretty useless - at 5km planes are actively dodging and can just fly around the flak. Midrange/shortrange are the best ones - mid because when planes lock in for an attack they cant really dodge and short because planes generally have to fly over you.

 

If I lose planes to a flak burst it will usually be a mid range one that pops infront of me as im on a torp run and therefore cant dodge it (altering speed sometimes helps at this point. Sometimes)

Btw. do you know what the best AA DD is right now? Z-52 :Smile_teethhappy:

Forget about Grozovoi with defensive AA, don't mind Harugumo with her high base values...

0-4 km of mid range aura with 7 flak bursts (9 with AA module)

4-5.8k m of long range aura with 3 flak bursts (so can be buffed up to 5)

The damage of these short-mid range bursts might be a tad underwhelming due to lack of AA consumable to buff it, but still...

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51 minutes ago, Europizza said:

Surface ships run out of HP, consumables and modules. Their effectiveness is reduced with each damage trade. Do CV's currently ever run out of planes enough to be defenseless or seriously handicapped?

Actually, they do. You can't be deplaned but people think "infinite planes" and don't realize how long it takes to actually replenish these planes. Let me put it this way: my Hakuryuu (with all the buffs that my build includes) replenishes torpedo planes at the speed of one per 74 seconds. If I mismanage them badly enough to lose them all, that means that a full strike (2 planes that drop whole 2 torpedoes) can be put together in 2 minutes and 28 seconds. A full squadron has 12 planes - replenishing that would require 14 minutes and 48 seconds (assuming that the planes just sit on deck and none of them die in the meantime) of the 20-minute game. I would most likely be sending some less-than-full squadrons in the meantime and probably still losing some planes here and there even when playing cautiously - so even if the initial wipe-out somehow happened within the first minutes of the match, losing all 18 torpedo bombers I have on deck would mean that I never take off with a full squadron again in this match.

Now, 18 planes means 12+6 and it takes a serious blunder to lose a lot of planes all at once, but unless you handle your planes with some care, you WILL suffer. I feel like I'm doing well in my Haku, I rarely catch flak and rarer still do I fly into a lot of it, usually most of my planes go home safely. But on more than one occasion I was made aware that "infinite planes" aren't quite as infinite as they might seem :Smile-_tongue:

 

So, setting aside how it's actually balanced right now, yes, while CVs can easily make up for a plane going down here and there, losing a bunch of them lowers their effectiveness noticeably. And if they keep doing that, forget full squadrons: they can find themselves struggling to send full strike detachments.

 

Of course, right now this only really happens (as in, getting quite this bad) to the potatoes because there's a lot a CV can do to mitigate the damage from AA and save your shot-up but still surviving planes in a pinch.

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1 hour ago, Europizza said:

Surface ships run out of HP, consumables and modules. Their effectiveness is reduced with each damage trade. Do CV's currently ever run out of planes enough to be defenseless or seriously handicapped?

Yes they do, if they are crap. But that is the thing: WG wanted it so that even a crap CV would still be any good.

Also, CVs ARE sort of defenseless. Detect them and shoot them, easy enough, they are big...and usually not looking where they are going.

I cannot understand why they let a CV live to see the end of the game. Needs to be shot ASAP. Prime target.

 

That's not the point though. The point is 'Cleveland not doing bubkus against CV planes'. But it does.

What WG needs to do is realise those AA guns should not be the first thing to go bust

 

OR MAYBE hitting that repair-button should fix AA back to 90%. 

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Honestly a nice simple answer would be to improve the constant damage done by AA to ensure AA ships do actually shoot planes down. And reduce the flak damage and amount of bursts. 

 

That way good CVS minimise the losses by avoiding flak while still risking planes due to good constant DPS. 

 

 

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I know, in theory plane availability can be 'damaged' temporarily, but let me put it this way: how often do you CV mains feel actually handicapped by the number of planes you have available at any time during a match. Like seriously crippled up to the point where you have to sit back and recover, like heavily damaged but often great BB players have to. Or lay low and avoid direct confrontation for the rest of the match like heavily damaged but great DD players have to.

 

How real is this theory currently? Does the lack of planes gradually get worse towards the end of the match often? Or does it often fully repair itself enough over time to have full and healthy squadrants near the end of the round?

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5 minutes ago, Europizza said:

I know, in theory plane availability can be 'damaged' temporarily, but let me put it this way: how often do you CV mains feel actually handicapped by the number of planes you have available at any time during a match. Like seriously crippled up to the point where you have to sit back and recover, like heavily damaged but often great BB players have to. Or lay low and avoid direct confrontation for the rest of the match like heavily damaged but great DD players have to.

Certainly you get that if you were stupid enough to attack a full health AA-cruiser (or Hood... or Texas). 

The squadron you have used then, will either have to replenish (takes loads of time) or doesn't go "full" for the rest of the battle.

Starting out with a 'less than full' squad means all the AA damage is divided over <example> 8 planes instead of 10. 

So even more will get shot down. 

 

5 minutes ago, Europizza said:

How real is this theory currently? Does the lack of planes gradually get worse towards the end of the match often? Or does it often fully repair itself enough over time to have full and healthy squadrants near the end of the round?

Depends how you use them. If you use the torpedo-bombers for a suicide run (mind... langley has 3 in  a squad... LOL),

then you will not have a full squad for at least half the game. And if you use that non-full squad, they will get shot down quicker.

Suppose you do it with the rocket planes. This means they get "limited usable"for half the game, and if you 'throw' them AGAIN... 

it ALWAYS repairs itself, you get more planes - but depends how fast you get them shot.

 

And THERE is the problem, the AA guns should ALSO get repaired-over-time, like the planes.

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@BLUB__BLUB Thank you for trying to help me understand this, but i think you are still talking theory.

 

Does any CV main here have post 0.8.0 stories about how they had a heavily fought-over victory against a couple of ships with massive plane casualties (not talking stupid mistakes here)? And consequently were left to scouting only for the remainder of the match because their squadrants damage output was marginal? Or couldn't attack anything for a couple of minutes because they had to heal up? Because I have gazillion stories about my surface ships like that :D

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47 minutes ago, kingzy2013 said:

Honestly a nice simple answer would be to improve the constant damage done by AA to ensure AA ships do actually shoot planes down. And reduce the flak damage and amount of bursts. 

 

That way good CVS minimise the losses by avoiding flak while still risking planes due to good constant DPS. 

 

 

 

This the constant dps used to be all we had to work with before but it has been totally gutted in favor of rngesus blessed/cursed flak bursts.

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2 minutes ago, Europizza said:

@BLUB__BLUB Thank you for trying to help me understand this, but i think you are still talking theory.

Not theory mate, I've been playing the [edited] myself... including tyhe test server.

 

2 minutes ago, Europizza said:

Does any CV main here have post 0.8.0 stories about how they had a heavily fought-over victory against a couple of ships with massive plane casualties (not talking stupid mistakes here)? And consequently were left to scouting only for the remainder of the match because their squadrants damage output was marginal? Or couldn't attack anything for a couple of minutes because they had to heal up? Because I have gazillion stories about my surface ships like that :D

No they haven't. Only an idiot would have "a heavily fought-over victory against a couple of ships with massive plane casualties". 

A CV main will never face that unless he has a total suicide team. I had some of those, and we ended up 2CVs vs 2CVs. 

Basically in the current version, surface ships are screwed because they lose stuff that never heals back, and the CV will get new planes.

 

Note: what do you think will happen when two CVs decide to team up... 

 

Just now, piet11111 said:

This the constant dps used to be all we had to work with before but it has been totally gutted in favor of rngesus blessed/cursed flak bursts.

Doesn't really matter, what matters is that if your ship is hit a few times with HE your AA is the first thing to go.

Any DPS or RNGesus blessing you had at the start will evaporate.

 

If you have a smart CV captain he will have saved his planes at the start... and now he will not have to save them anymore because there's not much you can do anymore.

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56 minutes ago, Europizza said:

I know, in theory plane availability can be 'damaged' temporarily, but let me put it this way: how often do you CV mains feel actually handicapped by the number of planes you have available at any time during a match. Like seriously crippled up to the point where you have to sit back and recover, like heavily damaged but often great BB players have to. Or lay low and avoid direct confrontation for the rest of the match like heavily damaged but great DD players have to.

 

How real is this theory currently? Does the lack of planes gradually get worse towards the end of the match often? Or does it often fully repair itself enough over time to have full and healthy squadrants near the end of the round?

Depends on the CV and if its up tiered or not.

 

Ive been playing the ryujo (tier 6) which if it gets bottom tier then it can run low on squads quite easily - something like a bismark can frequently oneshot a whole squad, and you only have 1.5 squads total. You usually have enough to put something into the air, but its frequently not what you want to be using.

 

The saipan if it loses its planes takes 151 secs per TB to respawn so a bad play with that can be very punishing. Conversely if it gets top tier then it pretty much doesnt care about AA

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So, I just tested an AA oriented Missouri build to see what is up with the tier X CV's. It was horrible. The match was okay at start and at mid, we capped all 3 cap points. But before i knew what was happening my team started dying all over the map. The end game was some of the worst i've ever been in. 2 tier X CV's throwing full waves of TB at me, calling me an idiot for stopping just to be torped in chat. I explained to them that my engine was disabled by their torpedo spam. They laughed at my torment. Meanwhile 100% healthy full TB waves were thrown at me. I shot down 4 planes with my Missouri AA build. All my HP was taken by torps.

2019-02-04 (6).png

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22 minutes ago, Europizza said:

2019-02-04 (6).png

 

LOL your team had 2 Midways and the enemies had 2 Hakus probably abusing the crap out of the torps. :cap_fainting:

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8 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

LOL your team had 2 Midways and the enemies had 2 Hakus probably abusing the crap out of the torps. :cap_fainting:

 

The test match before that I was trying out the Minotaur for the first time. Had a Haka in it too. I didnt call him an idiot though :cap_like:

2019-02-04 (10).png

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9 hours ago, kingzy2013 said:

Honestly a nice simple answer would be to improve the constant damage done by AA to ensure AA ships do actually shoot planes down. And reduce the flak damage and amount of bursts. 

 

That way good CVS minimise the losses by avoiding flak while still risking planes due to good constant DPS. 

 

 

On other hand you can spec your Worcester/Mino in max dps and be passively untouchable due to sheer dps. Which would be a good thing, if it would require more player input than "pick bft, pick AA guns mod 2 AFK in battle and passively farm planes from CV tempted to attack AFK"

 

I guess here directional AA could come into play - you want max dakka? Show broadside to the planes.

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The last testrun i did was my standard Assashio build, which admittedly is not a nice ship to some of you. I sail that ship to relax. Somehow a friendly yamato had it in for me and cussed me out halfway the match for being noob and the cause of our team losing. I ended up top score, capped and killed stuff. I sailed around undetected mostly, but once the Haku got my sent (i was in their side of the map by then), he threw wave after wave of rockets at me in full baby CV mode. I was close to a Des Moines but i think most of his AA was already destroyed. I died eventually unable to counter his relentless spam and the shells of his teammates that were bored but happened to be in the area. This Hakus told me he loved our tears and laughed at tormented players as well. This patch brings out the worst in some. Spamming and abusing broken Hakus but cant help yourself adding insult to injury? This patch will probably show you who you are ;-)

 

I played 4 matches: Flint, Minotaur, Missouri and Assahio. Won two matches, lost 2. I ended up 1st place on my team in every ship, but only had fun in 1, the Flint.

 

2019-02-04 (19).png

2019-02-04 (2).png

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10 hours ago, Europizza said:

Surface ships run out of HP, consumables and modules. Their effectiveness is reduced with each damage trade. Do CV's currently ever run out of planes enough to be defenseless or seriously handicapped?

No they don't. That is a thing WG needs to take care of: repair the AA modules. @MrConway

Right now it's no fair, they just wait until ships are shot a bit and then they go in for the easy risk-free kill.

(and I should know as I play the Cvs LOL). 

 

But... must be said it is more fair than before - just had a game in Hood. 

Very close, and at the end both teams still had a LIVING DD. Never seen that before. 

They had me dead at ~15 minutes, then I watched. Our DD avoided several attacks by moving quickly at last moment.

I shot down 32 planes... followed our DDs to the cap. When planes were coming they fled towards me. 

Worked great. Finally WG has done something TO CREATE TEAMWORK. Good job IMO. 

Needing some adjustments but hey. The test server sure wasn't going to provide that data.

Though i have seen some players (yes @El2aZeR looking at you there) predict most of it.

 

Now nerf/buff it carefully. And then find something to chase the 'blobs' (how about some subs... hehehehh!).

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12 minutes ago, Europizza said:

The last testrun i did was my standard Assashio build, which admittedly is not a nice ship to some of you. I sail that ship to relax. Somehow a friendly yamato had it in for me and cussed me out hlafway the match for being noob and the cause of our team losing. I ended up top score, capped and killed stuff. I sailed around undetected mostly, but once the Haku got my sent (i was in their side of the map by then), he threw wave after wave of rockets at me in full baby CV mode. I was close to a Des Moines but i think most of his AA was already destroyed. I died eventually unable to counter his relentless spam. This Hakus told me he loved our tears and laughed at tormented players as well. This patch brings out the worst in some. Spamming and abusing broken Hakus but cant help themselves adding insult to injury. This patch will probably show you who you are ;-)

 

I played 4 matches: Flint, Minotaur, Missouri and Assahio. Won two matches, lost 2. I ended up 1st place on my team in every ship, but only had fun in 1, the Flint.

 

I usually play in division, me and my teammate switch between DD/CV/BB (used to be DD/BB). 

We have now found a new hobby... some CVs get a bit careless and they go close to the cap. 

When they are in reach the DD(or CV) spots them and we kill them with the BB.

Thereby we kill one of the most damaging ships, one of the best spotters - and usually we win. 

 

It is very very satisfying to kill the big piñata, nothing better than CV tears, needs teamwork but you should try it. :cap_like::Smile_trollface:

 

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