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avrahams1

Are CVs counterable?

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I'm sure people already talked about this, but I'm genuinely curious if anyone can defend this, or if WG is just THAT disconnected from the meta.

 

So let's start with a story:

Me in a Musashi, I stick to a friendly Woorster (4KM away).

Enemy Midway quite literally sends hordes and hordes of torp bombers after me, until I inevitable died.

So yeah, maybe the Woorster dropped 1 whole squad here and there, but does it matter?

 

All he needs to do is send the next squad (out of an infinite supply) when the Woorster's DFAA is on cooldown.

 

How can a class with literally infinite striking power be considered counterable?

No amount of AA or teamwork can counter literal infinite strike power from a ship that's invincible (solely for the fact he can play in the back and never get hit).

 

I'd like to hear from anyone who thinks this sh!t can be defended.

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I think the main problem is that it isnt counterable if youre up against a good CV player. Of which there will be loads in a few days or weeks when people have figured it out.

The only sort of AA that seemingly does any damage to the planewaves is the long range flak bursts or explosions. And this is as you know avoidable. So if youre sailing in a BB, even if its AA heavy like a Montana or similar, and a good CV decides that you should die, you will die. You cannot defend yourself because he will dodge all your flakbursts and your tiny puny ticking AA damage isnt enough to shoot down a single of his planes.

And right now that is the main issue with CVs. Theyre either completely unplayably ueseless and a liability to your team, or ridicolously overpowered and cannot be countered. Aka balance is hilariously broken, way way worse than before. But WG arent blind and they will fix it in the coming days Im sure.

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10 minutes ago, avrahams1 said:

How can a class with literally infinite striking power be considered counterable?

Your ammunition is not limited either....

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2 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Your ammunition is not limited either....

 

And infact CVs are much more limited in their strikingpower than BBs are. Since you have to actualy fly to the enemy ships and risk getting shot down on the way. BB shells doesnt.

And when your planes do get shot down they take time to load. Before I had learned how to avoid flak I lost planes so quickly that I had to wait for them to reload.

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5 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Your ammunition is not limited either....

But AA mounts are, and they get destroyed, permanently. Your planes dont...

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12 minutes ago, AdmiralDing3Ling said:

 

And infact CVs are much more limited in their strikingpower than BBs are. Since you have to actualy fly to the enemy ships and risk getting shot down on the way. BB shells doesnt.

And when your planes do get shot down they take time to load. Before I had learned how to avoid flak I lost planes so quickly that I had to wait for them to reload.

Your, respawning planes, take damge. Your ship doesnt. So while battleships, cruisers and destroyers all take direct damage from your infinite planes, you take - given you're a good cv player - little to no damage to your infinite damage source and 0 to your ship.

 

Besides, cruisers cant avoid damage from battleships - 1 vs 1 - except by not fighting them. Destroyers cant avoid damage from cruisers, except avoiding them. So why should carriers be able to avoid almost all damage from their direct hard counters (AA cruisers and destroyers)? Makes no sense at all.

 

Carriers also should be forced to pick their fight carefully, and if there are only AA heavy ships in a battle, bad luck. It was the same now for cruisers in battles with 5 battleships each team or as a destroyer wit 3 or mote radarships in the enemy team. They are completely shut down and had to play accordingly. So why should a carrier be able to dodge nearly all AA damage from AA ships? It should'nt...

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22 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Your ammunition is not limited either....

Sure, but your guns are located on a hull with an ever decreasing HP pool, of which you can sometimes regenerate a percentage.

Planes on the other hand always auto-regenerate 100%, and as I said, the CV can hang out in the back and never get killed.

So no, not a good comparison.

 

You want a better comparison?

Imagine they added a modern warship with GPS guided missiles, that can hit pinpoint targets from 30km away without ever being detected, that's much closer to what a CV is.

 

24 minutes ago, AdmiralDing3Ling said:

I think the main problem is that it isnt counterable if youre up against a good CV player. Of which there will be loads in a few days or weeks when people have figured it out.

The only sort of AA that seemingly does any damage to the planewaves is the long range flak bursts or explosions. And this is as you know avoidable. So if youre sailing in a BB, even if its AA heavy like a Montana or similar, and a good CV decides that you should die, you will die. You cannot defend yourself because he will dodge all your flakbursts and your tiny puny ticking AA damage isnt enough to shoot down a single of his planes.

And right now that is the main issue with CVs. Theyre either completely unplayably ueseless and a liability to your team, or ridicolously overpowered and cannot be countered. Aka balance is hilariously broken, way way worse than before. But WG arent blind and they will fix it in the coming days Im sure.

I mean, you just described the old CV system.

And I agree - essentially nothing changed, as good CV players remain a 1-man army and bad CV players remain a liability.

 

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12 minutes ago, Kutfroat said:

But AA mounts are, and they get destroyed, permanently. Your planes dont...

It takes longer to get a full squad the more they get destroeyed.

Losing all AA is a hard thing to do.

1 minute ago, avrahams1 said:

Sure, but your guns are located on a hull with an ever decreasing HP pool, of which you can sometimes regenerate a percentage.

Planes on the other hand always auto-regenerate 100%, and as I said, the CV can hang out in the back and never get killed.

Then do not take too much damage. And the more damage planes take, the longer they take to regenerate, decreasing the strike power.

And CV get in your range eventually, unless you play badly. And Musashi has A LOT of range. Apart from Musashi not being the best choice directly after a CV patch... :fish_panic:

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2 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

It takes longer to get a full squad the more they get destroeyed.

Losing all AA is a hard thing to do.

Then do not take too much damage. And the more damage planes take, the longer they take to regenerate, decreasing the strike power.

And CV get in your range eventually, unless you play badly. And Musashi has A LOT of range. Apart from Musashi not being the best choice directly after a CV patch... :fish_panic:

About the refresh cooldown - the CV I talked about literally lost squad after squad to the Woorster next to me and just continued sending them, what's the point of AA then?

Just to be a nuisance to the CV?

It should be a HARD COUNTER!

A Des Moines COUTERS DDs, you don't have an infinite supply of DDs you can throw into the meat grinder to chip away at it.

 

 Also - I know Musashi AA is bad, that's why I specifically said I had Woorster cover@4KM.

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7 minutes ago, avrahams1 said:

About the refresh cooldown - the CV I talked about literally lost squad after squad to the Woorster next to me and just continued sending them, what's the point of AA then?

Just to be a nuisance to the CV?

It should be a HARD COUNTER!

A Des Moines COUTERS DDs, you don't have an infinite supply of DDs you can throw into the meat grinder to chip away at it.

 

 Also - I know Musashi AA is bad, that's why I specifically said I had Woorster cover@4KM.

The CV does not do damage with shot down planes...

Your BB shells cannot get shot down.

 

A ship near you can only protect you so much. You do not profit from his whole AA bubble and 4 km is not that close. That is the edge of his medium AA range.

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5 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

The CV does not do damage with shot down planes...

 Your BB shells cannot get shot down.

 

A ship near you can only protect you so much. You do not profit from his whole AA bubble and 4 km is not that close. That is the edge of his medium AA range.

Sure, but as someone else here said - My BB is in line of sight when I'm dealing damage, it gets shot at and chipped.

It's like saying that an island blocking my shells is the equivalent of hurting my ship - it just prevented me from doing dmg for the next however-many seconds.

 

Also - if 4Km is nearing the edge of what's needed for acceptable protection to a Woorster(!), either planes are too strong or AA is too weak.

4KM is WoWS standards is practically touching each other, closer than that and you'd need literally the entire team grinding into each other all game long for any sort of acceptable AA defense.

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8 minutes ago, avrahams1 said:

Sure, but as someone else here said - My BB is in line of sight when I'm dealing damage, it gets shot at and chipped.

It's like saying that an island blocking my shells is the equivalent of hurting my ship - it just prevented me from doing dmg for the next however-many seconds.

 

Also - if 4Km is nearing the edge of what's needed for acceptable protection to a Woorster(!), either planes are too strong or AA is too weak.

4KM is WoWS standards is practically touching each other, closer than that and you'd need literally the entire team grinding into each other all game long for any sort of acceptable AA defense.

Then you shoot at somebody else. Your enemy is the whole enemy team, not the CV alone.

It does not matter how much damage the CV does to your ship as long as you rip the enemy team apart in the meantime. That is your job!

 

Get the Wooster between you and the planes. Get to 3km. And no, there is no touching involved.

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7 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Then you shoot at somebody else. Your enemy is the whole enemy team, not the CV alone.

It does not matter how much damage the CV does to your ship as long as you rip the enemy team apart in the meantime. That is your job!

 

Get the Wooster between you and the planes. Get to 3km. And no, there is no touching involved.

 

I don't understand the "so you shoot at somebody else" part, in response to what is that exactly?

I can't think of a single argument I made this would be a counter to.

 

On your second point though - you think it makes sense to give a SINGLE player the power to force the entire enemy team to position themselves completely different?

That's what you're saying - for the single CV player on the enemy team, my entire team are now forced to position themselves in a potentially non-optimal way, or risk getting blapped.

 

If you think that's good game design, or that it doesn't mean CVs are extremely OP... questionable, that's all I'm gonna say :cap_wander_2:

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8 minutes ago, avrahams1 said:

 

I don't understand the "so you shoot at somebody else" part, in response to what is that exactly?

I can't think of a single argument I made this would be a counter to.

 

On your second point though - you think it makes sense to give a SINGLE player the power to force the entire enemy team to position themselves completely different?

That's what you're saying - for the single CV player on the enemy team, my entire team are now forced to position themselves in a potentially non-optimal way, or risk getting blapped.

 

If you think that's good game design, or that it doesn't mean CVs are extremely OP... questionable, that's all I'm gonna say :cap_wander_2:

 

32 minutes ago, avrahams1 said:

It's like saying that an island blocking my shells is the equivalent of hurting my ship - it just prevented me from doing dmg for the next however-many seconds.

 

And no, the CV does not force your entire team to do anything.

The CV can only attack at one point. That one point has to react and not ignore the planes. It is your choice if you do not.

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2 hours ago, Kutfroat said:

But AA mounts are, and they get destroyed, permanently. Your planes dont...

Have fun trying to destroy worcester or mino aa mounts...

And CV's can get deplaned down to nothingness fairly quick.

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29 minutes ago, The_Reichtangle said:

Have fun trying to destroy worcester or mino aa mounts...

And CV's can get deplaned down to nothingness fairly quick.

Sure, but a good CV just ignores any and all AA and single-handedly kills the entire enemy team.

Show me another class that can do that.

Show me another class that at any point in the game literally picks an enemy player and deletes them instantly, anywhere on the map, regardless of concealment or any other stats.

 

1 hour ago, ColonelPete said:

 

 

And no, the CV does not force your entire team to do anything.

The CV can only attack at one point. That one point has to react and not ignore the planes. It is your choice if you do not.

Now you're just playing with semantics.

Show me another class that forces an entire team out of position (and just to prevent further semantics - he doesn't literally force you, he just leaves you no other choice if you don't want to lose).

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4 minutes ago, avrahams1 said:

Sure, but a good CV just ignores any and all AA and single-handedly kills the entire enemy team.

Show me another class that can do that.

Show me another class that at any point in the game literally picks an enemy player and deletes them instantly, anywhere on the map, regardless of concealment or any other stats.

 

Now you're just playing with semantics.

Show me another class that forces an entire team out of position (and just to prevent further semantics - he doesn't literally force you, he just leaves you no other choice if you don't want to lose).

I have never seen a single CV sinking a whole enemy team single handedly. I suggest to tune down the Drama Queen inside you.

 

No class does that. If you see only problems and no solutions, then you have an attitude problem. Maybe games are not for you.

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5 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

I have never seen a single CV sinking a whole enemy team single handedly. I suggest to tune down the Drama Queen inside you.

 

No class does that. If you see only problems and no solutions, then you have an attitude problem. Maybe games are not for you.

You don't need to actually sink the whole enemy team by yourself.

The CV can pick any target and sink them, so all you need to do is prioritize the high threats and your team wins easily.

And again - since you have no actual counters, all you have to do is look at the scoreboard, pick who you want to sink, and a minute later they're dead.

 

Do that 3 times with all their high tiers/high threats, doesn't your team just automatically win at that point?

 

So again - you have a class that can delete anyone anywhere on the map at any time, with no counter, and you're defending it?

 

I see I need to be less hyperbolic when discussing with you, you take everything as literally as possible for some reason.

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3 minutes ago, avrahams1 said:

You don't need to actually sink the whole enemy team by yourself.

The CV can pick any target and sink them, so all you need to do is prioritize the high threats and your team wins easily.

And again - since you have no actual counters, all you have to do is look at the scoreboard, pick who you want to sink, and a minute later they're dead.

 

Do that 3 times with all their high tiers/high threats, doesn't your team just automatically win at that point?

 

So again - you have a class that can delete anyone anywhere on the map at any time, with no counter, and you're defending it?

 

I see I need to be less hyperbolic when discussing with you, you take everything as literally as possible for some reason.

 

Have you even tried the new CVs or are you just assuming things?

Theres no way a CV can just decide to sink a ship and then do it. If you fly into an AA bubble your planes will die within 2-3 seconds. To play a CV correctly you support your team, helping them with important targets, spot and try to persuade the enemies to not push a certain flank. A CV is a support class not a game changer, the gamechanger right now is the BB.

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2 minutes ago, AdmiralDing3Ling said:

 

Have you even tried the new CVs or are you just assuming things?

Theres no way a CV can just decide to sink a ship and then do it. If you fly into an AA bubble your planes will die within 2-3 seconds. To play a CV correctly you support your team, helping them with important targets, spot and try to persuade the enemies to not push a certain flank. A CV is a support class not a game changer, the gamechanger right now is the BB.

I don't play CVs, but I can speak to my experience playing against them last 2 days, see my original post.

CVs seem to just ignore AA, and with the number of planes and how fires and floodings work they only need to get lucky twice to sink someone.

 

To make things worse - before the rework there were fighters the CV could use to counter the enemy CV, not there aren't even fighters (except for that dumb consumable), so if the enemy CV decides to focus a friendly DD there's no counter, the entire team can just stand back and look while the DD is being rocketed to the bottom.

 

In another instance I was against the Audacious in an undamaged Zao, the guy ignored my DFAA and blapped me with 1 torp squad, but that's a CV in testing so it's excusable.

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4 minutes ago, avrahams1 said:

I don't play CVs, but I can speak to my experience playing against them last 2 days, see my original post.

CVs seem to just ignore AA, and with the number of planes and how fires and floodings work they only need to get lucky twice to sink someone.

 

To make things worse - before the rework there were fighters the CV could use to counter the enemy CV, not there aren't even fighters (except for that dumb consumable), so if the enemy CV decides to focus a friendly DD there's no counter, the entire team can just stand back and look while the DD is being rocketed to the bottom.

 

In another instance I was against the Audacious in an undamaged Zao, the guy ignored my DFAA and blapped me with 1 torp squad, but that's a CV in testing so it's excusable.

 

Then I implore you to test the new CVs first before you speak. Like really I mean it. CVs are incredibly hard to play right now and your planes dies insanly easely IF you dont know how to dodge AA which I still havent fully mastered.

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13 minutes ago, avrahams1 said:

I see I need to be less hyperbolic when discussing with you, you take everything as literally as possible for some reason.

That would be nice.

And yes, when you argue, people tend to listen to other peoples words. If you are forced to guess what the other said, because the other said stuff that cannot be taken serious, you do not really get a discussion.

 

6 minutes ago, avrahams1 said:

 ...so if the enemy CV decides to focus a friendly DD there's no counter, the entire team can just stand back and look while the DD is being rocketed to the bottom.

 

With incompetent DD, stuff like that can happen.

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3 minutes ago, AdmiralDing3Ling said:

 

Then I implore you to test the new CVs first before you speak. Like really I mean it. CVs are incredibly hard to play right now and your planes dies insanly easely IF you dont know how to dodge AA which I still havent fully mastered.

Have I ever said otherwise?

Seriously, go through my messages - have I said it's easy to play CVs?

 

I understand why you're saying that, but I KNOW I suck with CVs, and it doesn't interest me enough to get better.

 

I'll ask again - is there another class in the game where if you're really good you beat your hard counters?

Where the better you are the less counters you effectively have?

 

How good do you need to be in DDs so Woorsters and Des Moines's won't be your counter?

How good do you need to be in the Des Moines to bow tank Yamato shells?

 

That was my point all along - CVs haven't changed a bit, bad players will remain bad, good players are still uncounterable killing machines capable of picking ships off 1-by-1.

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6 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

That would be nice.

And yes, when you argue, people tend to listen to other peoples words. If you are forced to guess what the other said, because the other said stuff that cannot be taken serious, you do not really get a discussion.

 

With incompetent DD, stuff like that can happen.

 

When talking with people I expect you to not parse text like a robot, but understand context, but maybe it's just me, maybe I'm the weird one :(

 

It has nothing to do with DD competency - a CV who wants a DD dead will kill him, and there's nothing no one in the game can do, is that not broken?

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53 minutes ago, avrahams1 said:

Sure, but a good CV just ignores any and all AA and single-handedly kills the entire enemy team.

Show me another class that can do that.

Ok, what is the context here? What did you want to say?

Now I am curious what I missed here.

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