Idea for better DD play

[Wilkinson87]

Hello everyone.

Well, I started to play with this new CV system, and I rly enjoy it.BUT...I think its not fair that what the planes see, the rest of the team sees too.Best would be that what the planes see its not visible for ships, only on mini map.This would fix the DD issue.What do you guys think about this?

[ForlornSailor]

I agree with you, that spotting now is stupid. Not sure if seperating CVs even more from the rest of the game is the way to go. I was thinking of drastically lowering the air-spotting ranges of all ships. Something like:

DDs ~400 m

Cruisers ?

BBs ?

Now what would happen because of that? DDs will be stealthier. They need this, it can stay like it currently is. It will also be almost impossible for a CV to attack an otherwise unspotted DD, because he couldnt target him. That would shift the focus from DDs, that are playing as they should be, aka beeing in front of the team, spotting, playing for the objective. I think thats good for the game. The CV can however spot a DD, if he found him, for the team. Or he can attack a DD, that is spotted, and thus help his team. Ofc, AA of DDs would have to be changed accordingly. But keep in mind, that if a DD has his AA on, he will still be spotted accoring to his AA-range. So the DD basically has the choice. Not sure what would be good numbers for Cruisers and BBs.

[avenger121]

Delete CVs.

[jure_eruj]

1 minute ago, avenger121 said:

Delete CVs.

+1

 

This patch killed DDs. So much for balancing the game.

[DFens_666]

I thought about the same... but then the CV is basicly playing on his own even more. Literally no use in a teamgame anymore, as he provides almost no help for his team. (even AA cover is very limited).

 

Its just that the whole concept is wrong now. With 2 CVs/side, the whole team is detected basicly 1 minute into the game.

Maybe planes should be MUCH slower, and when they are under AA fire, it enables a speedboost so they can make a fast attackrun (otherwise no speedboost). If planes are slow when they are moving around the map, then spotting is less of an issue.

[ForlornSailor]

3 minutes ago, avenger121 said:

Delete CVs.

 

If WG cant fix what they have created - and imo its much harder to fix these CVs as it would have been to fix RTS CVs - then yup, ill vte for this too. We need drastic ! changes to get the new CVs in line. And we need them fast. Not in 6 months. I´ll sure stick around a couple of weeks to see if they change anything but I wont wait 6 months to play the next random game.

[thiextar]

Yup, drastic changes are needed asap. If wargaming are serious about balancing on the live server, they need to be on it right now, not in a month.

[jure_eruj]

WG will, as always, claim that their statistical data show there is nothing wrong with the game. Long live tha stats. Meanwhile, kiss my money goodbye, WG, I will not spent a single dime for a game fucked up like this one.

[eliastion]

3 hours ago, ForlornSailor said:

DDs ~400 m

(...)

Now what would happen because of that? DDs will be stealthier.

...literally impossible to attack with planes unless something else spots them, even if the CV knows pretty precisely where the ship is. I don't really think it's good how easy DDs are to harass with rockets but the idea that when you notice a DD you're too late not only for starting an attack run but even for attacking while already in the attack run... no, that doesn't sound like a workable solution in the slightest. It's one thing to make DDs less vulnerable to CV attacks and another to make them basically impossible to attack. Oh, and that "spotting for the team" - no, not with that spotting radius. You don''t seem to realize how little 400m is in this game. It wouldn't be realistically possible to keep within the specified range of the DD even if that was all you wanted to do.

[Migantium_Mashum]

3 hours ago, jure_eruj said:

WG will, as always, claim that their statistical data show there is nothing wrong with the game. Long live tha stats. Meanwhile, kiss my money goodbye, WG, I will not spent a single dime for a game fucked up like this one.

+1

[ForlornSailor]

3 minutes ago, eliastion said:

.literally impossible to attack with planes unless something else spots them

 

If you continue reading my post - thats exactly what I wrote and what I think needs to happen.

 

4 minutes ago, eliastion said:

You don''t seem to realize how little 400m is in this game.

 

Its actually 800m what the CV has to work with. And nobody said it should be easy to keep the DD spotted.

[eliastion]

3 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

If you continue reading my post - thats exactly what I wrote and what I think needs to happen. 

And I'm telling you that this is ridiculously stupid not a viable solution. For the record, I'm a DD main.

 

3 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

Its actually 800m what the CV has to work with. And nobody said it should be easy to keep the DD spotted.

Yes, I do know what "radius" means. Yes, you still seem to be failing to grasp how tiny the radius of 400m is.

[ForlornSailor]

3 minutes ago, eliastion said:

Yes, I do know what "radius" means. Yes, you still seem to be failing to grasp how tiny the radius of 400m is.

 

The only one who is failing to gasp anything is you. Because you keep repeating the things I wrote. Tone it down a notch. I know what I wrote, I know what I want I know how it works I know the consequences. You can disagree with it, its your right, quite frankly, I dont care.

[loppantorkel]

Can't say I've thought this through in all aspects, but what is dds were treated differently as a class - planes only make them visible on minimap, while the rest classes are spotted like now? This would still provide in of where the dds are and harassing is still possible, but you'd still mainly have to rely on friendly dds for spotting dds.

[eliastion]

1 minute ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

The only one who is failing to gasp anything is you. Because you keep repeating the things I wrote. Tone it down a notch. I know what I wrote, I know what I want I know how it works I know the consequences. You can disagree with it, its your right, quite frankly, I dont care.

You really should take out a CV and track the distances while flying around a training room with some bots, first immobile and then moving. It wouldn't give you much understanding of CV gameplay but it would allow you to get some feeling of the distances you're talking about. Because what you're aiming for (that's already a bad idea) doesn't correspond with what you actually suggest (the 400m air spotting radius). THIS is why I say you lack grasp on distance, not because of the overall suggestion.

 

Other than this, yours is just another bad idea, hardly the first and certainly not the last in the long list of bad ideas people bring up as solutions for various balancing issues they perceive within the game.

[ForlornSailor]

2 minutes ago, eliastion said:

You really should take out a CV and track the distances while flying around a training room with some bots, first immobile and then moving. It wouldn't give you much understanding of CV gameplay but it would allow you to get some feeling of the distances you're talking about. Because what you're aiming for (that's already a bad idea) doesn't correspond with what you actually suggest (the 400m air spotting radius). THIS is why I say you lack grasp on distance, not because of the overall suggestion.

 

No need. Because I know how it works. Unlike that, you still havent read and / or understood my initial statement. Which is sad, because know im pointing your the third time to it. Yet you keep repeating it , while its exactly what I wrote. Weird. Again: Before accusing others of lacking something, fill your own gaps and understand what people write.

 

4 minutes ago, eliastion said:

Other than this, yours is just another bad idea, hardly the first and certainly not the last in the long list of bad ideas people bring up as solutions for various balancing issues they perceive within the game.

 

Who made you the judge? you dont even understand the suggestions in the first place. Sounds like a good judgement skills.

[ForlornSailor]

8 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

Can't say I've thought this through in all aspects, but what is dds were treated differently as a class - planes only make them visible on minimap, while the rest classes are spotted like now? This would still provide in of where the dds are and harassing is still possible, but you'd still mainly have to rely on friendly dds for spotting dds.

 

Ideas like that should be tried out on the Test server, which imo should be used way more for exactly things like that. But WGs opinion seems to differ, sadly.

[SV_Kompresor]

This is what I'd do:

1. Give CVs a "cooldown" before they can launch any planes after starting a battle (say 15 seconds), give dds a chance to at least get some dd vs dd combat or caps.
2. Reduce DD air detectability to allow DDs to make sharp manouvers and possibly avoid being detected by planes. (assuming their AA is turned off)
3. If DD air detectability is reduced to a point where the CV only spots the dd while flying almost directly over it (again, with its AA turned off), introduce a delay (of say 5 seconds) where the DD would remain spotted if it was spotted and then should've already been unspotted with current mechanics by planes, to give the CV time to actually attack the destroyer, instead of it blinking in and out constantly.

[DFens_666]

3 minutes ago, eliastion said:

You really should take out a CV and track the distances while flying around a training room with some bots, first immobile and then moving. It wouldn't give you much understanding of CV gameplay but it would allow you to get some feeling of the distances you're talking about. Because what you're aiming for (that's already a bad idea) doesn't correspond with what you actually suggest (the 400m air spotting radius). THIS is why I say you lack grasp on distance, not because of the overall suggestion.

 

Other than this, yours is just another bad idea, hardly the first and certainly not the last in the long list of bad ideas people bring up as solutions for various balancing issues they perceive within the game.

 

Obviously you like the idea more that the CV is not spotting at all for his teammates, since you targeted Forlornsailors idea, but not the one from the threadopener?

Certainly not spotting anything (including DDs), is better than hardly spotting DDs, but everything else normaly

 

DDs seem to be hardly playable at all (from what i hear and see in streams, ill stay away from randoms in the meantime), considering the way you should play them. Spotting is mostly not needed, the CV(s) can do it. One leaves a bit room for spotting, but 2 or even 3 is making DD spotting pretty much obsolete. So we are left with capping... yep, DD going alone into the Cap will attract the CV on his location. Isolated DD can just get raped by CVs, while being permaspotted ontop. Attacking the other ships 1 min into the game can hardly work, as they are very close together, so it only leaves DDs as targets which were moving towards caps.

 

25 minutes ago, eliastion said:

For the record, I'm a DD main. 

 

Btw, how is playing the DD Hakuryu working out for you Traditional DDs dont seem to be working too good i suppose

[eliastion]

7 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

No need. Because I know how it works.

If you did, you wouldn't say "400m" or you wouldn't claim that the CV would be able to play the DD-spotter for the team. Unless that somehow disappeared from your post and that's why I should revisit it? As I am writing now, it's still there, though.

 

9 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

Who made you the judge? (...)

Well, I've played the new CVs and I have extensive DD experience pre-patch. I've also played a little post-patch as well. This gives me some basis to build upon and lets me make up my mind about your idea. And the conclusion is... not favorable, to say it mildly. And since we are on the Forum and discussing in a thread titled "Idea for better DD play" in the context of the new patch - it seems like the right place to express my evaluation of your concept in writing.

[Hugh_Ruka]

4 hours ago, ForlornSailor said:

I agree with you, that spotting now is stupid. Not sure if seperating CVs even more from the rest of the game is the way to go. I was thinking of drastically lowering the air-spotting ranges of all ships. Something like:

DDs ~400 m

Cruisers ?

BBs ?

Now what would happen because of that? DDs will be stealthier. They need this, it can stay like it currently is. It will also be almost impossible for a CV to attack an otherwise unspotted DD, because he couldnt target him. That would shift the focus from DDs, that are playing as they should be, aka beeing in front of the team, spotting, playing for the objective. I think thats good for the game. The CV can however spot a DD, if he found him, for the team. Or he can attack a DD, that is spotted, and thus help his team. Ofc, AA of DDs would have to be changed accordingly. But keep in mind, that if a DD has his AA on, he will still be spotted accoring to his AA-range. So the DD basically has the choice. Not sure what would be good numbers for Cruisers and BBs.

That would not work, a CV needs to see targets to attack them. You could make one way transfer of information (from other classes to CV) but as you said, that would isolate CVs even more ...

[Floofz]

You all are aware that you have to basically park the planes ontop of DDs to spot them right? Gearing has a 3.5 km detection range by air. Usually your DDs are spotted by ships because they y0l0, die and then blame CVs. Infact CVs were far more dangerous to DDs in the old system since they had more squads and were far harder for DDs to shoot down compared to now. And before you could cross drop etc and oneshot DDs which you cant do now.

[ForlornSailor]

5 minutes ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

That would not work, a CV needs to see targets to attack them.

 

4 hours ago, ForlornSailor said:

It will also be almost impossible for a CV to attack an otherwise unspotted DD, because he couldnt target him.

Your point? Can you read?

 

11 minutes ago, eliastion said:

If you did, you wouldn't say "400m" or you wouldn't claim that the CV would be able to play the DD-spotter for the team. Unless that somehow disappeared from your post and that's why I should revisit it? As I am writing now, it's still there, though.

 

Sigh. I said it shouldbt be easy. I dont want DDs to be permaspotted from a CV. How many times do I have to repeat my innital statement until you will understand that? Dont try to be smart - you aint.

 

13 minutes ago, eliastion said:

And since we are on the Forum and discussing in a thread titled "Idea for better DD play" in the context of the new patch - it seems like the right place to express my evaluation of your concept in writing.

 

Like I said: Noted. And I dont care, think what you want. Not going to change anything on my view either. Does that bother you that much?

[eliastion]

1 hour ago, DFens_666 said:

Obviously you like the idea more that the CV is not spotting at all for his teammates, since you targeted Forlornsailors idea, but not the one from the threadopener?

 

Actually, yes, I do like that idea more... Or rather - I dislike it less. It's not as bad as blinking/impossible to attack other than blindly DDs but, on the other hand, I don't think it really solves the main issue. It would certainly help DDs, but the main problem with current rework and DDs seems to be how effective CVs are at constant harassment with rockets. Rockets are very good (although it's still an improvement over the "a unicum CV wants you dead, prepare for the crossdrop you can't do anything about" of old) and the planes are back FAST after making their first attack.

 

1 hour ago, DFens_666 said:

DDs seem to be hardly playable at all (from what i hear and see in streams, ill stay away from randoms in the meantime), considering the way you should play them. Spotting is mostly not needed, the CV(s) can do it. One leaves a bit room for spotting, but 2 or even 3 is making DD spotting pretty much obsolete. So we are left with capping... yep, DD going alone into the Cap will attract the CV on his location. Isolated DD can just get raped by CVs, while being permaspotted ontop. Attacking the other ships 1 min into the game can hardly work, as they are very close together, so it only leaves DDs as targets which were moving towards caps.

I'm a bit more cautious with talking about unplayability. Currently we're still in the midst of the Great CV Wave. And, as you say, the current sad state of DDs has a lot to do with the fact that there are few matches without CVs and many with two per team. I do believe we should get the 1 CV/team limit but even without it, we're bound to see the population stabilizing at a much lower level, creating a situation where 2-CV per team are a rarity.

Now, as for how DDs need to cope with there being a CV or, especially, two CVs per team. First of all - the early capping isn't really viable in this meta. If a DD wants to move into a cap, this requires much closer support than before the patch. Going solo, far from allies, into a big circle that kinda advertises "hey, there's a lone ship with mediocre AA doing something tactically important over here"? Not the best idea. And even when capping is an option (usually because some ships with better AA have pushed in closer or you REALLY want that cap and have a long-lasting smoke to help you survive while no Radar ships seem to be in the vicinity), many DDs do a big mistake of shooting and keeping their AA on while enemy rocket planes close in - all that while trying to pull off a smoke cap. Problem is: rockets, especially not fully aimed rockets, are a scatter shot. And both shells and AA give away your approximate position within smoke pretty well. And... well, it just takes one or two rockets nicking your hull and all the effort on capping goes to waste - while the smoke does NOT last forever.

I do believe DDs are playable even now, but it's certainly much harder and the impact you have is lower - because you need to be much more cautious (though probably not as cautious as when playing against a unicum CV pre-patch). Oh, and - as always - some DDs fare worse than others, of course. Say hi to IJN torpboats. These guys, as per tradition, I guess, get the short end of the stick. The "planes no longer spot torps" is nice, but it doesn't help much when you're a squishy low-hp target that needs to get close to enemies from a good angle to set up the perfect torpedo attack. The "no lone wolf" rule is pretty damn painful for these guys.

 

1 hour ago, DFens_666 said:

Btw, how is playing the DD Hakuryu working out for you Traditional DDs dont seem to be working too good i suppose

Well, I'm obviously part of the CV wave Shiny new toy, you know? Still, I did play whole two matches in Kitakaze, that's, like more than 10% of my matches this patch And with 100% winrate at that!

But when I was bringing up myself being a DD main, I mostly wanted to make a point of my sympathies - I like DDs and I most definitely don't want them dead

 

50 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

Sigh. I said it shouldbt be easy. I dont want DDs to be permaspotted from a CV. How many times do I have to repeat my innital statement until you will understand that? Dont try to be smart - you aint.

As I said. If you believe "not easy" cuts it, you have no grasp of distance in this game. To put it in a way that might let you understand: the only reason why I don't write "it's literally impossible" is because there might be a plane in the game capable of achieving a turning radius lower than 0,5km (without the help of the border that can redirect your planes away in a super-sharp turn). I know for a fact that my Haku's planes can't turn that tightly (not even close). I haven't really played much with the lower tier CVs, though, so I can't be sure if their slower planes are equally incapable of performing a circle with radius below half a kilometer. HOWEVER I do know that DDs usually move, messing things up further, so even if there is a plane technically capable of circling as tight as 400m from an immobile ship, it's still not realistically possible to do the spotting of such a ship in real game environment - even if the CV player has godly skills and spotting the DD for his team is the one and only purpose he has on his mind.

 

50 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

Like I said: Noted. And I dont care, think what you want. Not going to change anything on my view either. Does that bother you that much?

No, not that much. As I said, yours is not the first and neither will it be the last dumb idea someone came up with

[ForlornSailor]

1 minute ago, eliastion said:

No, not that much. As I said, yours is not the first and neither will it be the last dumb idea someone came up with

 

And yours is not the first nor the last stupid reply that Ive seen in this forum, completly missunderstanding everything but thinking you got it right.

 

2 minutes ago, eliastion said:

As I said. If you believe "not easy" cuts it, you have no grasp of distance in this game. To put it in a way that might let you understand: the only reason why I don't write "it's literally impossible" is because there might be a plane in the game capable of achieving a turning radius lower than 0,5km (without the help of the border that can redirect your planes away in a super-sharp turn). I know for a fact that Haku's planes can't turn that tightly (not even close). I haven't really played much with the lower tier CVs, though, so I can't be sure if their slower planes are equally incapable of performing a circle with radius below half a kilometer. HOWEVER I do know that DDs usually move, messing things up further, so even if there is a plane technically capable of circling as tight as 400m 800m from an immobile ship, it's still not realistically possible to do the spotting of such a ship in real game environment - even if the CV player has godly skills and spotting the DD for his team is the one and only purpose he has on his mind.

 

And for the 4th time. You are talking about permaspotting while I actually said, three times so far, I dont want CVs to permaspot the DD. Do you really have a problem understanding english or where is the problem? I dont know how to help you because you keep saying "yes you are right but no you are not right" in the same sentence. And now I really have to question your understanding of spotting range again, even you assured me before, you understand how it works.