A possible solution to make CVs more welcome in the game

[FukushuNL]

While I am of the opinion that the game atm is in an awkward state because of everyone wanting to try the new CVs, not giving us a realistic look at what CVs mean in normal day to day matches, I think the biggest issue isn't CVs camping in the back, nor the infinite amount of planes they got in the ship, nor the damage. It's the way they spot the whole field. 

 

 

I think that when CVs only can spot with their active squardon and in particular DDs get a lower air detection, things would be a lot better. So would life be better for all if returning planes would not  ve able to spot and DDs' air detection concealment would make it easier to dodge planes?

 

This way there is a better balance between the speed, range and versatility of CVs and being able to spot key targets. I also want to stress for fairness of the CV discussion, that firstly CVs had at least 4-5 squadrons in the air in the old days with more chances to spot DDs and there was less complaining than there is now and secondly both sides have an equal amount of CVs, so while comparision "CV vs every other type of ship" is one that everyone likes to discuss, this counts for both sides. Sure, your personal score is important and as a DD you want to be able to put a good score down, but in the end it's a team effort and both teams have to deal with the same issues. Thirdly, we had a long time where CVs only apeared in 3 games in a dozen, while now we will probably see many more games featuring CVs. And this logically will change the way we gotta play the game. The game we got to play up till now was only because CVs were unpopular. 

 

And I still think their meta is better than the Radar meta ;)

[veslingr]

1 minute ago, FukushuNL said:

 

 

And I still think their meta is better than the Radar meta ;)

this is not a meta...this is hype....and CV player have horrible bad results in average...patetic dmg and very very soon all the "new" guys who expected fun game will leave their CV in port.

 

new CV needs hard work for dmg, you are not ALPHA monster (as before) you now kill ba thousand strikes.

 

did anybody wonder why now in Co-op CVs loses games? :)...becasue to kill ship you need much longer time than before.

 

all that leads me to conclusion that i n2-3 (or less) weeks number of CV games will go down to 2018 level

[Redcap375]

Doesn't matter what we think, any of us.

 

WG has their plan and that's that.

 

They are ones that make money and work for the company.  Let them come up with the ideas, most of us are getting fed up with doing their job for them. 

[eliastion]

35 minutes ago, FukushuNL said:

I think that when CVs only can spot with their active squardon and in particular DDs get a lower air detection, things would be a lot better. So would life be better for all if returning planes would not  ve able to spot and DDs' air detection concealment would make it easier to dodge planes?

They actually can't, afaik. Returning planes start by raising the altitude - once they get up there, they

 - disappear from the enemy map (not sure about allies)

 - no longer can suffer from AA

 - don't spot anything

Returning planes don't participate in the battle apart from the short transition period after dropping the load/receiving the return order where they still take some time to climb to the cruising altitude.

 

And as for air detection - DDs are actually pretty stealthy. If you don't have the DD located previously (perhaps in a previous fly-by), it's often hard to set up an attack unless you luckily find yourself flying almost in the right direction already. As a DD main I'm sad about the asswhooping I can get from CVs but I don't really think it's a viable idea to make DD air detection even lower across the board.

[Beastofwar]

I'm unsure there is already a problem that didn't exist before, except for anyone and their mother trying the new CV gameplay and thus swamping matches with CV's.

 

DD weren't able to hide from aicraft before, in the old RTS situation either. I always positioned a fighter squadron over them if that wasn't needed for more pressing matters. It is true there are now fighters with rockets that can hit DD pretty reliable, but i have yet to sink one.....the damage is pretty poor.

 

I think the new CV mechanics aren't for everyone either, damage and rewards are generally is low compared to other ships and there is quite some skill needed to actually hit something. So in a few weeks there won't be that many CV's left. Just ride it out.

 

 

[Amon_ITA]

As @Beastofwar said. 

 

Dd was screwed even with the old carriers.

 

The problem was not felt that much because there were a lot few carriers around.

 

( and planes were slower )

[FukushuNL]

So apart from the addition to rockets, things aren't as bad as they are? We just need the storm to blow over? I'm actually really glad people react this way.

 

I kinda like the new CV gameplay. I love WoWS because of the beautiful ships and being close to them to see the action. Playing CVs now is (apart from the fact that you don't really use the CV itself) far more personal and closer to the battle. I personally don't mind CVs being the worst damage dealer in the game, as rewards can be balanced to the avarage damage, but if the CV can be the most supportive and team player class in the game, that would still be nice.

[SuperYago]

3 hours ago, FukushuNL said:

to see the action

Many times I rammed enemy with my CV, helped to take flags competing with enemy armed ship while planes do other different tasks same time.

Now we have bad arcade instead. No parallel actions, no strategy, no brain strain. Just stupid "click click click".

[conductiv]

This does seem to be a "wait for the storm to blow over" situation. as there are a lot of carriers in the matchmaker at this moment. resulting in the vision saturation, the low AA rating of destroyers and the addition of the easier to aim with rockets also made destroyers a prime target for multiple passes, resulting in a particulary bad couple of days for players of this class.

 

but I am worried, especially by the apparent immense gap between "good" CV players and the new/average/bad ones...if you can dodge flak, you pretty much hamstring the AA of any ship, allowing you to take on any that are not sailing in extremely close proximity to their allies. if you can't dodge flak, you lose planes like nobodies business.

 

this directly translates to the fact that a good CV player can dominate the fight, with the losses that they do take restored during the flight time of another squad, while the "bad one" will be crippled 5 or so minutes and waiting for the onboard factory to rebuild the lost planes. this in my book would mean that one of the initial goals of this rework..narrowing the skill gap between good and bad CV players...didn't exactly pan out like it was intended to.

 

it also proves hard to counterplay a CV, you can only control the reinforced sector, but the majority of the AA damage is still in the flak busts...if they get avoided, well...nothing you can do to counteract that (if they can't avoid this, well even moderate AA flak will badly damage planes). as what remains will simply be too anemic to stop a drop, and if its first pass to even reduce the numbers of munitions used on you. with rockets, torps and bombs in tandem, there is also no ship agile or small enough to avoid a whooping...provided the CV player is a capable enough shot. the only remaining "counter" is sailing in a blob.

[tenacious_torps]

18 hours ago, Amon_ITA said:

As @Beastofwar said. 

 

Dd was screwed even with the old carriers.

 

The problem was not felt that much because there were a lot few carriers around.

 

( and planes were slower )

The last part is what makes the new situation worse. A lot. You're spotted even before even reaching a cap now and there is way too little time before new squads arrive to utilize with any efficiency whatsoever in a DD.

[invicta2012]

19 hours ago, Beastofwar said:

I think the new CV mechanics aren't for everyone either, damage and rewards are generally is low compared to other ships and there is quite some skill needed to actually hit something. So in a few weeks there won't be that many CV's left. Just ride it out.

The problem is that the new CVs are horrible to learn and far too powerful when you master them. If WG think that new players are going to come along and enjoy playing this class they are quite, quite wrong. I have never felt so much of an idiot as I do when playing these ships. I enjoyed my best result through using my secondary guns and ramming someone, and I'm not sure that's what they intended.

 

The lower Tier planes reel around like they're drunk. Even getting them anywhere near the target is an exercise in frustration. And you get shot down so, so often. Dodging flak is a reaction game, and you're driving sluggish, fragile planes. The way the AA auras are set up means that you are hugely likely to derp into a flak burst while setting up a run - losing your entire squadron rather than the attacking planes - so the game starts to involve an awful lot of failing and returning to the carrier. When you do manage to get within firing range further annoyances occur - the Dive Bomber reticule falls off the bottom of the screen, for instance, and there's no "time to target" indicator as there is with guns or torpedoes - and after that the end result appears to be launching 1 (one) torpedo.

 

Spotting, though? You're great at that. You can see everything on the map, keep DDs permanently under surveillance, reveal the spawning locations and course of the enemy team. Presuming that you do manage to master the firing mechanics then there's nothing you can't pester into non-existence. 

[Gudgeon]

19 hours ago, Amon_ITA said:

As @Beastofwar said. 

 

Dd was screwed even with the old carriers.

 

The problem was not felt that much because there were a lot few carriers around.

 

( and planes were slower )

 

DD's were not screwed with the old system......the CV's also had to watch out for enemy fighters, and keep his planes alive. Now they are just constant plane spawning, damage farmers who actually do not counter the enemy CV's. They CV player workload is now very different and the enemy CV is not his problem anymore. We have gone from one extreme to another regarding CV v CV play.

 

[Negativvv]

New CVs bot fighters are a bad joke. They almost never do their job...

 

Maybe one solution for the CVs is to totally remove their spotting for their own team. Yes it's drastic but it might actually encourage a team to push again.

[Flavio1997]

1 hour ago, invicta2012 said:

The problem is that the new CVs are horrible to learn and far too powerful when you master them. If WG think that new players are going to come along and enjoy playing this class they are quite, quite wrong. I have never felt so much of an idiot as I do when playing these ships. I enjoyed my best result through using my secondary guns and ramming someone, and I'm not sure that's what they intended.

 

The lower Tier planes reel around like they're drunk. Even getting them anywhere near the target is an exercise in frustration. And you get shot down so, so often. Dodging flak is a reaction game, and you're driving sluggish, fragile planes. The way the AA auras are set up means that you are hugely likely to derp into a flak burst while setting up a run - losing your entire squadron rather than the attacking planes - so the game starts to involve an awful lot of failing and returning to the carrier. When you do manage to get within firing range further annoyances occur - the Dive Bomber reticule falls off the bottom of the screen, for instance, and there's no "time to target" indicator as there is with guns or torpedoes - and after that the end result appears to be launching 1 (one) torpedo.

 

Spotting, though? You're great at that. You can see everything on the map, keep DDs permanently under surveillance, reveal the spawning locations and course of the enemy team. Presuming that you do manage to master the firing mechanics then there's nothing you can't pester into non-existence. 

and you want to know the main problem? is that cvs unicum like me are already at pre rework numbers after the first 2-3 games in which they got what they should do and how the sistem work ( i couldn't download any test server), and this is with 1/10 of the games on that particular cv and 1/50 of my total  number of games in cvs. I'm starting to feel like a god in my riju, cause noone can stop me, you don't have fighter cover and even a fully aa specced atlanta get nuked at the 2nd run of tbs ( during the 1st he used the def aa), when you master tbs drop you can nuke even  kamikaze r ( 2 in the same match yesterday) or icarus and such. You sit still in smoke, even moving in it? you aa fire gives me your position and i termonuke you anyway ( yesterday a dallas, a cleveland and a fiji died in this way, and the 2 formers were blobbed in the same smoke, so a lot of aa). BBS? 1st drop on the nose, flooding, he repairs, the the others 2 drops are one on the nose and one on the bow, he sinks and he cant do nothing against those 2 permaflooding. And, it is true that i could do that before with the old cvs, but I could do that every 3-4 minutes, now I can do the same every 60 secs.

And do you want to know where wg failed spectacularly with this rework? Narrowing the skill gap:

unicums are already nuking back everything they want to nuke, meanwhile noobs fail drops like it's nobody's businnes, because meanwhile with the old cvs you had autodrop, with the new ones you don't. Yesterday in my Uber powerfull aa ship that is a kronstad ( not even aa specced) I pushed a midway and a lexington and meanwhile I was nuking them with citadels, both combined didn't manage to break 20k damage on me, between me maneuvering, using a single def aa and they botching drops/ dropping too close

 

[FukushuNL]

5 hours ago, SuperYago said:

Spoiler

 

Many times I rammed enemy with my CV, helped to take flags competing with enemy armed ship while planes do other different tasks same time.

Now we have bad arcade instead. No parallel actions, no strategy, no brain strain. Just stupid "click click click".

 

 

You can still steer your ship in position while controlling your planes via the minimap. Yes, the versatility(= power) of the CV was n

 

4 hours ago, conductiv said:

Spoiler

 

This does seem to be a "wait for the storm to blow over" situation. as there are a lot of carriers in the matchmaker at this moment. resulting in the vision saturation, the low AA rating of destroyers and the addition of the easier to aim with rockets also made destroyers a prime target for multiple passes, resulting in a particulary bad couple of days for players of this class.

 

but I am worried, especially by the apparent immense gap between "good" CV players and the new/average/bad ones...if you can dodge flak, you pretty much hamstring the AA of any ship, allowing you to take on any that are not sailing in extremely close proximity to their allies. if you can't dodge flak, you lose planes like nobodies business.

 

this directly translates to the fact that a good CV player can dominate the fight, with the losses that they do take restored during the flight time of another squad, while the "bad one" will be crippled 5 or so minutes and waiting for the onboard factory to rebuild the lost planes. this in my book would mean that one of the initial goals of this rework..narrowing the skill gap between good and bad CV players...didn't exactly pan out like it was intended to.

 

it also proves hard to counterplay a CV, you can only control the reinforced sector, but the majority of the AA damage is still in the flak busts...if they get avoided, well...nothing you can do to counteract that (if they can't avoid this, well even moderate AA flak will badly damage planes). as what remains will simply be too anemic to stop a drop, and if its first pass to even reduce the numbers of munitions used on you. with rockets, torps and bombs in tandem, there is also no ship agile or small enough to avoid a whooping...provided the CV player is a capable enough shot. the only remaining "counter" is sailing in a blob.

 

 

Spoiler

 

I don't think two days in, while the majority of the playerbase still has to figure out the gameplay, you can make that assessment. We know for a fact that the rts managing of multiple planes gave the CV player too much power over the game AND had a very high skill ceiling, making it a too large step for people to make worth the time invested. Now, flying through openings in flak will take some practise to get it right, but over time, I believe way more people can learn the skills necessary to fly through flak than managing 4-5 squadrons, learning to cross drop, etc. But before that you gotta give them more than 2 days to learn it. 

 

THe counterplay  to a CV will always be a tough one. On this point I have not enough specifics to clearly give an answer either way or what should be done to fix it. I do believe that whatever gives AA ships reason to cover others, or people to sail together more, is a positive thing. (Not that I aprove more lemmingtrains. 

1 hour ago, tenacious_torps said:

Spoiler

The last part is what makes the new situation worse. A lot. You're spotted even before even reaching a cap now and there is way too little time before new squads arrive to utilize with any efficiency whatsoever in a DD.

 

Planes already reached the cap in 99% of the matches in the old days too, though then they had multiple squadrons to contest multiple caps and spotting multiple DDs

 

1 hour ago, invicta2012 said:

Spoiler

 

The problem is that the new CVs are horrible to learn and far too powerful when you master them. If WG think that new players are going to come along and enjoy playing this class they are quite, quite wrong. I have never felt so much of an idiot as I do when playing these ships. I enjoyed my best result through using my secondary guns and ramming someone, and I'm not sure that's what they intended.

 

The lower Tier planes reel around like they're drunk. Even getting them anywhere near the target is an exercise in frustration. And you get shot down so, so often. Dodging flak is a reaction game, and you're driving sluggish, fragile planes. The way the AA auras are set up means that you are hugely likely to derp into a flak burst while setting up a run - losing your entire squadron rather than the attacking planes - so the game starts to involve an awful lot of failing and returning to the carrier. When you do manage to get within firing range further annoyances occur - the Dive Bomber reticule falls off the bottom of the screen, for instance, and there's no "time to target" indicator as there is with guns or torpedoes - and after that the end result appears to be launching 1 (one) torpedo.

 

Spotting, though? You're great at that. You can see everything on the map, keep DDs permanently under surveillance, reveal the spawning locations and course of the enemy team. Presuming that you do manage to master the firing mechanics then there's nothing you can't pester into non-existence. 

 

 

This sounds a lot like "I can't get it to work, so it sucks" Yes it takes skill, yes it's hard to manouver through the flak (AA ain't there for random funny effects. They are protecting the player you are trying to damage), they can fix the dive-bomb recticle easy and dropping stuff takes a bit of experience, just like torping in ships. Also, DDs got spotted in the old style continuously whithout any counter apart from smoke too. Nothing's changed there.  

 

It's funny how there are lots of people that say CV gameplay is too easy as flak is easily dodgable and another group yelling CV gameplay is too hard to master and will scare of people. 

 

55 minutes ago, Gudgeon said:

Spoiler

DD's were not screwed with the old system......the CV's also had to watch out for enemy fighters, and keep his planes alive. Now they are just constant plane spawning, damage farmers who actually do not counter the enemy CV's. They CV player workload is now very different and the enemy CV is not his problem anymore. We have gone from one extreme to another regarding CV v CV play.

 

 

Your situation only is correct for the matches where the other CV actually tried to defend it's DDs from getting spotted and untill the better CV or the one with the better fighters killed off the other CV's fighter. Then it was spotting heaven for the one with the fighters. plus in the old days, CVs could use a spare squadron to keep a DD permaspotted while they went on killing the rest of the enemy with what they had left. 

[Yedwy]

suggestion REMOVE them

[FukushuNL]

44 minutes ago, Flavio1997 said:

and you want to know the main problem? is that cvs unicum like me are already at pre rework numbers after the first 2-3 games in which they got what they should do and how the sistem work ( i couldn't download any test server), and this is with 1/10 of the games on that particular cv and 1/50 of my total  number of games in cvs. I'm starting to feel like a god in my riju, cause noone can stop me, you don't have fighter cover and even a fully aa specced atlanta get nuked at the 2nd run of tbs ( during the 1st he used the def aa), when you master tbs drop you can nuke even  kamikaze r ( 2 in the same match yesterday) or icarus and such. You sit still in smoke, even moving in it? you aa fire gives me your position and i termonuke you anyway ( yesterday a dallas, a cleveland and a fiji died in this way, and the 2 formers were blobbed in the same smoke, so a lot of aa). BBS? 1st drop on the nose, flooding, he repairs, the the others 2 drops are one on the nose and one on the bow, he sinks and he cant do nothing against those 2 permaflooding. And, it is true that i could do that before with the old cvs, but I could do that every 3-4 minutes, now I can do the same every 60 secs.

And do you want to know where wg failed spectacularly with this rework? Narrowing the skill gap:

unicums are already nuking back everything they want to nuke, meanwhile noobs fail drops like it's nobody's businnes, because meanwhile with the old cvs you had autodrop, with the new ones you don't. Yesterday in my Uber powerfull aa ship that is a kronstad ( not even aa specced) I pushed a midway and a lexington and meanwhile I was nuking them with citadels, both combined didn't manage to break 20k damage on me, between me maneuvering, using a single def aa and they botching drops/ dropping too close

 

So? Unicums always will drive circles around newer players or those that can't get to grips with the gameplay. Bad cruisers will broadside, bad DDs will fail to torp correctly, bad BBs will do everything bad BBs do and Unicums will rule the game. But after 2 days, you can't really tell which players will git gud and which will keep on failing, right? So, you got to grips with the new gameplay fast. Good for you. Not everyone is like you. 

 

I do agree that fully AA specced AA kings like Atlanta, Kii, etc do very crappy against planes. I do think people using AA in smoke and giving themselves away is an error on their side. They just have to learn to use P while in smoke.

[invicta2012]

46 minutes ago, FukushuNL said:

This sounds a lot like "I can't get it to work, so it sucks" Yes it takes skill, yes it's hard to manouver through the flak (AA ain't there for random funny effects. They are protecting the player you are trying to damage), they can fix the dive-bomb recticle easy and dropping stuff takes a bit of experience, just like torping in ships. Also, DDs got spotted in the old style continuously whithout any counter apart from smoke too. Nothing's changed there.  

 

 "It Takes Skill" is nonsense. It should take skill to play well, not skill to play at all. Part of the appeal of WoWs is its pace and obvious nature - select ship, move ship, point guns, fire. These ships are not like that. 

 

You cannot "manouevre through the flak" in a Langley squadron which is barely catching up with the ship you are trying to attack. And Who is going to be accurate when their aiming reticle - a key part of the efficacy of dive bombers - is no longer on the visible part of the screen?

 

50 minutes ago, FukushuNL said:

It's funny how there are lots of people that say CV gameplay is too easy as flak is easily dodgable and another group yelling CV gameplay is too hard to master and will scare of people. 

 

I'm not yelling. I'm trying to pick up the CV gameplay from scratch and it's not going well. Former CV unicum players are probably not going to be taking out a Tier IV CV but new players are, and they're not going to have too much fun judging by the way these ships are currently playing. 

 

[Flavio1997]

1 hour ago, FukushuNL said:

So? Unicums always will drive circles around newer players or those that can't get to grips with the gameplay. Bad cruisers will broadside, bad DDs will fail to torp correctly, bad BBs will do everything bad BBs do and Unicums will rule the game. But after 2 days, you can't really tell which players will git gud and which will keep on failing, right? So, you got to grips with the new gameplay fast. Good for you. Not everyone is like you. 

1

the entire point of the rework was " in their words" to narrow the skill gap between good and bad players, the difference is that before a super unicum had 140k of damage and a potato 40k, not it will be more in the 140-160k for unicums and like 15-20k for potatoes

Quote

 

I do agree that fully AA specced AA kings like Atlanta, Kii, etc do very crappy against planes. I do think people using AA in smoke and giving themselves away is an error on their side. They just have to learn to use P while in smoke.

I agree that this is a good change, before the rework was an idiotic mechanic to have a smoked up mino just melt everything it got in range and don't get punished for it

 

[Animalul2012]

Ignore them and everyone is happy!