DD 0.8.0 The murder of an entire ship type

[Lady_godiva_s]

Dear WG...if u dint notice that,,,its only the second day from your"update"and dd's almost disappearing rom the battles.

First u bring the (rediculus O.P) U.S cruisers...DD's goes to INTENSIVE CARE.

Ofcourse everybody continues play them....Few Zao's,Roon,Hidenburg,

Mino's exist only 4 samples,that u can say"we have other natios cruisers too!"...ofcourse Des Moines is the best ship in game...this is YOUR fault!

And the des moines captain's r sooooo arogant,they troo;y believes that the moines succes depends on their ability!!!!!!!!

No dear captains...WG gives u a rediculus O.P ship!

AND NOW....0.8.0...wow...DD's have to fight.....opposite DD's....Radars(combine with hydro at many cruisers!!!The 100 km radar is nt enough!)

and now planes with rockets!

DO U REALLY THINK that we continue playing DD's?NO my dear WG...U just unplug the power at the INTENSIVE CARE and YOUR DD's....DYING.

A....pls...chance the stupid AA sectors keyboard-mouse operation.A dedicated button which in 1 hit=AA left....same buttons 2 hits Right sector...3 hits neutral

Is nt so difficult!

We love your game..pls...dont....us!

YIANNA

Sorry 4 my english!lol

 

[thiextar]

Wait, you saying des Moines is op? 

[veslingr]

2 minutes ago, Lady_godiva_s said:

Dear WG...if u dint notice that,,,its only the second day from your"update"and dd's almost disappearing rom the battles.

First u bring the (rediculus O.P) U.S cruisers...DD's goes to INTENSIVE CARE.

Ofcourse everybody continues play them....Few Zao's,Roon,Hidenburg,

Mino's exist only 4 samples,that u can say"we have other natios cruisers too!"...ofcourse Des Moines is the best ship in game...this is YOUR fault!

And the des moines captain's r sooooo arogant,they troo;y believes that the moines succes depends on their ability!!!!!!!!

No dear captains...WG gives u a rediculus O.P ship!

AND NOW....0.8.0...wow...DD's have to fight.....opposite DD's....Radars(combine with hydro at many cruisers!!!The 100 km radar is nt enough!)

and now planes with rockets!

DO U REALLY THINK that we continue playing DD's?NO my dear WG...U just unplug the power at the INTENSIVE CARE and YOUR DD's....DYING.

A....pls...chance the stupid AA sectors keyboard-mouse operation.A dedicated button which in 1 hit=AA left....same buttons 2 hits Right sector...3 hits neutral

Is nt so difficult!

We love your game..pls...dont....us!

YIANNA

Sorry 4 my english!lol

 

no idea why you are talking...last night, 8 games in DD, 67% WR.......adopt and play....Radar, Radio Location, hydro, CV-s, stealth firing.....every single thing here was upset for DD game play, and every single thing is managable if you dont cry on forum and try to adopt your gampelay

[thiextar]

3 minutes ago, veslingr said:

no idea why you are talking...last night, 8 games in DD, 67% WR.......adopt and play....Radar, Radio Location, hydro, CV-s, stealth firing.....every single thing here was upset for DD game play, and every single thing is managable if you dont cry on forum and try to adopt your gampelay

I'm sorry but no. If the CV has it in for you, it is impossible to both stay alive and not just camp with the rest of the blob or hide in a smoke.

 

If you try to scout, and get seperat ed from the blob, you will be perma spotted by enemy CV and attacked by a new squad every 20 seconds.

 

Dds are utterly pointless right now, except for maybe 20km Shima, but then again, if your staying in the blob, a cruiser is more useful

[BLUB__BLUB]

1 minute ago, thiextar said:

I'm sorry but no. If the CV has it in for you, it is impossible to both stay alive and not just camp with the rest of the blob or hide in a smoke.

 

If you try to scout, and get seperat ed from the blob, you will be perma spotted by enemy CV and attacked by a new squad every 20 seconds. 

So, you are saying if the CV has it in for you - this means you should be able to go on as usual and just not care?

Maybe you should realise that if he 'has it in for you', the thing you are doing is keeping him busy. 

Meanwhile he cannot do anything else (anymore...). And you can run to an AA cruiser - thereby rendering him useless. 

 

Sure if the CV wants to ruin your game, he can. Maybe the DD should get 'BBQ points' if he does -->  @MrConway .

After all, this is 'damage prevented by BEING spotted'. 

 

 

[thiextar]

Just now, BLUB__BLUB said:

So, you are saying if the CV has it in for you - this means you should be able to go on as usual and just not care?

Maybe you should realise that if he 'has it in for you', the thing you are doing is keeping him busy. 

Meanwhile he cannot do anything else (anymore...). And you can run to an AA cruiser - thereby rendering him useless. 

 

Sure if the CV wants to ruin your game, he can. Maybe the DD should get 'BBQ points' if he does -->  @MrConway .

After all, this is 'damage prevented by BEING spotted'. 

 

 

But the CV always go after dds, because the rocket fighters are laughably op. The problem is that if he spots you once, you are screwed, because you won't get a break, with planes flying at Mach 3, you will just get a sdeady stream of planes at your face keeping you perma spotted and killing you. This happens every time you dare move away from the blob. 

 

And if you have to run to the aa cruisers to stay alive, then too bad, because they are in the middle of the blob, the one place where a dd is completely useless to his team. 

 

It boggles my mind why wargaming added rocket planes to begin with. CV's don't need a dedicated anti dd weapon. 

[veslingr]

1 minute ago, thiextar said:

I'm sorry but no. If the CV has it in for you, it is impossible to both stay alive and not just camp with the rest of the blob or hide in a smoke.

 

If you try to scout, and get seperat ed from the blob, you will be perma spotted by enemy CV and attacked by a new squad every 20 seconds. 

BAD THING: if cv has it in for you you can not cap..period..you need GOOD AAA DD (my kid has 25+ average plane kills and CV avoids it, t8 cvs) or you need help from friendly aaa.

 

GOOD THING: cv can not be on all sides all the time, so if he is on other flank you can do your job as before

 

GREAT THING - ha can not spot your torps anymore

 

also todays CV needs much more time to kill you than 2018 CV, so even if you are caught out of position you will not die, he can not hit you with torps, he hardy hits you with bombs, and rockets will hit you but you will live.

 

it is myth that he can attack yo every 20 seconds all day long....it can only do it with rockets planes that are very fast (rest are slow planes), they must survive first attack (replenish of planes is not that fast)

[tajj7]

6 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

So, you are saying if the CV has it in for you - this means you should be able to go on as usual and just not care?

Maybe you should realise that if he 'has it in for you', the thing you are doing is keeping him busy. 

Meanwhile he cannot do anything else (anymore...). And you can run to an AA cruiser - thereby rendering him useless. 

 

Sure if the CV wants to ruin your game, he can. Maybe the DD should get 'BBQ points' if he does -->  @MrConway .

After all, this is 'damage prevented by BEING spotted'. 

 

 

 

You are useless in both your scenarios, you are either permanently spotted by planes if you are on your own, or you are in with AA cruisers thus useless anyway. 

 

Previously if a CV put a fighter on you, at least you could go to support, those planes would either get shot down or be forced to go, but now the CV is ale to endlessly spam planes that it doesn't matter.

 

Not exactly fun, CVs are completely hard countering DDs right now and there is very little they can do about it, making playing the class pretty much pointless. 

[thiextar]

1 minute ago, veslingr said:

BAD THING: if cv has it in for you you can not cap..period..you need GOOD AAA DD (my kid has 25+ average plane kills and CV avoids it, t8 cvs) or you need help from friendly aaa.

 

GOOD THING: cv can not be on all sides all the time, so if he is on other flank you can do your job as before

 

GREAT THING - ha can not spot your torps anymore

 

also todays CV needs much more time to kill you than 2018 CV, so even if you are caught out of position you will not die, he can not hit you with torps, he hardy hits you with bombs, and rockets will hit you but you will live.

 

it is myth that he can attack yo every 20 seconds all day long....it can only do it with rockets planes that are very fast (rest are slow planes), they must survive first attack (replenish of planes is not that fast)

But rocket planes are the ones that kills dds, so he can do it every 20 sec... And saying that dds are fine because the strongest aa dd in game with full aa spec can sorta survive, is really really stupid. 

[Akula971]

If you have to fight and win, who would you choose to fight? The guy who works out at the gym? The guy who does karate? The 6 foot 6 brickshithouse wrestler?.....or a weak feeble small kid who in most cases can't hit back? or survive too long?

And that is what is happening, they choose the easy kill.

 

When you deprive a class of its defining feature, you make it useless. Destroyers rely on stealth. That has been effectively removed.

 

How about a cruiser with a reload of a battleship? or a battleship with 6km gun range?

 

If they should change anything, it should be a reduction in detection by air, for all classes.

[veslingr]

2 minutes ago, thiextar said:

But rocket planes are the ones that kills dds, so he can do it every 20 sec... And saying that dds are fine because the strongest aa dd in game with full aa spec can sorta survive, is really really stupid. 

he can not if he loses them....if you kill his planes he has replenish time that is not short

 

and DDs are fine, some can defend them self, others can use magical TEAMPLAY (funny leeast used thing in Multiplayer game)

[veslingr]

3 minutes ago, Akula971 said:

 

And that is what is happening, they choose the easy kill.

 

 

if you are not a noob, you can do alot to avoid that kill or to make CVs "to expensive" to hunt you...in most random games CV will go for easy kill.....lonely solo ship totally out of position no metter the class

[thiextar]

Just now, veslingr said:

he can not if he loses them....if you kill his planes he has replenish time that is not short

 

and DDs are fine, some can defend them self, others can use magical TEAMPLAY (funny leeast used thing in Multiplayer game)

"Some can defend themselves" yeah, maybe 4 or 5 dds out of all the dds in the game can, with full aa spec, meaning that they cripple themselves vs everything else. This argument is a bust.

 

And your teamplay idea? In this meta, nearly every game, all you see is one big blob of allies and one big blob of enemies, which means that there are two scenarios for the dd player:

 

1. I go out and try to scout, i get crap on by the enemy cv, and die.

 

2. I go and hide by my aa cruisers, which are in the middle of the blob, thus rendering myself completely useless to the team in my dd.

 

dds can stay alive, but they cant be useful, big difference.

[Akula971]

5 minutes ago, veslingr said:

if you are not a noob, you can do alot to avoid that kill or to make CVs "to expensive" to hunt you...in most random games CV will go for easy kill.....lonely solo ship totally out of position no metter the class

A destroyers role is to scout, find the enemy and torpedo if possible. I would suggest you play the game more, you appear to spend more time on the forum, than in battle. The role of the destroyer in this new meta is to proceed slightly ahead of a cruiser, doing what?

 

Most stealth IJN types or RN types have almost zero AA. Go figure.

[thiextar]

My solution would be:

 

1. Remove rocket planes, we dont need a hrd counter to dds, if cvs wants to hunt dds, then they can do so with dive bombers and torps, that are atleast dodgeable somewhat.

 

2. Lower the speed of planes significantly, and buff damage in return, this should mean that cvs have aprox the same dpm as before, but it should be harder for them to perma-spot dds.

 

3. Make losing planes more punishing, right now, if a cv loses a squad of 1 type of plane, he can just use the other 2 types for a while, and no harm done. Losing planes needs to REALLY hurt.

[tajj7]

6 minutes ago, thiextar said:

"Some can defend themselves" yeah, maybe 4 or 5 dds out of all the dds in the game can, with full aa spec, meaning that they cripple themselves vs everything else. This argument is a bust.

 

And your teamplay idea? In this meta, nearly every game, all you see is one big blob of allies and one big blob of enemies, which means that there are two scenarios for the dd player:

 

1. I go out and try to scout, i get crap on by the enemy cv, and die.

 

2. I go and hide by my aa cruisers, which are in the middle of the blob, thus rendering myself completely useless to the team in my dd.

 

dds can stay alive, but they cant be useful, big difference.

 

This.

 

'teamplay' is a stupid response, a DD playing for the team is capping flags and scouting in front of the fleet, not sitting in a big blob of ships, the key features of DDs are stealth and speed, they use these skills to operate away from the fleet to give them eyes on the enemy, and to enable them to do sneak attacks or flanking attacks, again away from the fleet.

 

To suggest DDs have to go sail within the fleet to survive thus basically admits they are completely pointless. 

 

EDit: Agree above, IMO the key problems are the speed and the endless ability to spam, reduce the speed down, force CV players to think about losing planes and make sure there is some cycling involved so they cannot just spam squad after squad. 

 

 

[veslingr]

1 minute ago, thiextar said:

"Some can defend themselves" yeah, maybe 4 or 5 dds out of all the dds in the game can, with full aa spec, meaning that they cripple themselves vs everything else. This argument is a bust.

 

And your teamplay idea? In this meta, nearly every game, all you see is one big blob of allies and one big blob of enemies, which means that there are two scenarios for the dd player:

 

1. I go out and try to scout, i get crap on by the enemy cv, and die.

 

2. I go and hide by my aa cruisers, which are in the middle of the blob, thus rendering myself completely useless to the team in my dd.

 

dds can stay alive, but they cant be useful, big difference.

well DDs have alot of spare captain points, much more "free ones" than other classes...AFT benefits dds more than just AAA efence AFT too....most gunboats use AFT/BFT combo for +dps + range.

SO pls do not talk about cripling yourself for AAA spec when those 2 skills benfit DDs with their main guns DPS. 

USA line = def aaa

RU Line = def aaa + heal

IJN gunboat line = plane killer, in CV you avoid them more than des moines now

 

IJN torp line and "Chinese" can not defend the mself cause the have weak AAA and need help

 

 

and if you have big blob team you lost anyway

[Kingsown04]

Please stop feeding the Troll....this is the guy who swears blind that the Soviet Navy fought far more,important and bigger engagements than the Italian RM in the 2nd World War. He has played less than 300 games according to his avatar details and has over 1000 posts. He can't have played high tier DDs and a such has no idea of the challenges we now face and how horrible the gameplay can be for a DD.

[veslingr]

3 minutes ago, Akula971 said:

A destroyers role is to scout, find the enemy and torpedo if possible. I would suggest you play the game more, you appear to spend more time on the forum, than in battle. The role of the destroyer in this new meta is to proceed slightly ahead of a cruiser, doing what?

 

Most stealth IJN types or RN types have almost zero AA. Go figure.

If you have CV in game scouting part is not that a big deal for DD anymore

than your job is to cap (end you have every tool to cap with CV over your head) - use smoke.....you have at least 4 smokes....4 caps...you did your part

i have more games than you, but that is not important

[thiextar]

1 minute ago, veslingr said:

If you have CV in game scouting part is not that a big deal for DD anymore

than your job is to cap (end you have every tool to cap with CV over your head) - use smoke.....you have at least 4 smokes....4 caps...you did your part

i have more games than you, but that is not important

So dds went from being scouts relying on stealth, ambushing, capping and knife-fighting other dds, to only being able to cap while sitting in a smoke thinking of how in gods name hes gonna get out of there when it dissipates and the rocket planes circling overhead sees him?

 

Sound like a dead class to me.

 

Anyways, you are an obvious troll, who hasnt got a single dd or surface ship above tier 3, so i shall stop responding to you, since you obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

[veslingr]

2 minutes ago, thiextar said:

So dds went from being scouts relying on stealth, ambushing, capping and knife-fighting other dds, to only being able to cap while sitting in a smoke thinking of how in gods name hes gonna get out of there when it dissipates and the rocket planes circling overhead sees him?

 

Sound like a dead class to me.

 

Anyways, you are an obvious troll, who hasnt got a single dd or surface ship above tier 3, so i shall stop responding to you, since you obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

CV was always ultimate scout. 

CV had much more spoting power in 2018 than it has it now - before when you enter the game in DD and found 8 squadron haku infront of you, did you just exit game?

 

For DD it is much easier to live today than in 2018 when CV was in game.

 

problem is that second day in CV rework you see CV in every game, in 2 weeks you will se 50% less and in moth you will se it as often as in 2018 AND THEN you have CV with 8 squad where before it had 6.

 

 

[BLUB__BLUB]

23 minutes ago, thiextar said:

But the CV always go after dds, because the rocket fighters are laughably op.

Well, that is ONE problem identified. Nerf rockets - I agree, too. Two attacks (from one flight) usually kill a DD.

Alpha damage needs to be less - maybe more fire damage so they can go pester BBs. This is BALANCE-ABLE.

 

23 minutes ago, thiextar said:

The problem is that if he spots you once, you are screwed, because you won't get a break,

Yes you will. In lowertiers, I just smoke up. Granted in higher tiers then you get radared. 

 

23 minutes ago, thiextar said:

... with planes flying at Mach 3, you will just get a sdeady stream of planes at your face keeping you perma spotted and killing you.

Planes are too fast. WG need to realise they made ships faster, and shrunk mapsize. 

Then they need to make planes slower, that's it. This was a problem BEFORE and needs fixing.

 

23 minutes ago, thiextar said:

This happens every time you dare move away from the blob. 

Because the blob is stupid. That blob needs to realise if the want to win, they need to protect the DD. It is L2P. 

YOU can fix it too. Div up with some savvy dudes. Hood + Sims, works like a charm. Hood follows Sims to cap at < 5km.

 

23 minutes ago, thiextar said:

And if you have to run to the aa cruisers to stay alive, then too bad, because they are in the middle of the blob, the one place where a dd is completely useless to his team. 

Actually that AA cruiser needs to support the DD by following near the cap. It is a L2P issue.

 

23 minutes ago, thiextar said:

It boggles my mind why wargaming added rocket planes to begin with. CV's don't need a dedicated anti dd weapon. 

Because they needed the stupido-CVs to have something entertaining to do as well? Last-minute defence against DDs?

TBH they are crap. I can maybe kill 3DDs in a CV, all game. How many XP does that get? Worthless!

[BLUB__BLUB]

31 minutes ago, tajj7 said:

You are useless in both your scenarios, you are either permanently spotted by planes if you are on your own, or you are in with AA cruisers thus useless anyway. 

I did not find so in lower tiers, no did we at T7 - but we were in div. Hood supporting Sims.

It probably means he AA cruisers are useless. 

 

31 minutes ago, tajj7 said:

Previously if a CV put a fighter on you, at least you could go to support, those planes would either get shot down or be forced to go, but now the CV is ale to endlessly spam planes that it doesn't matter.

The support is what matters, they're sort of chickenshits right now.

Granted - the rockets need changing. To kill a DD in ONE flight is a no-no. 

CV should at least need 2 flights, giving DD time to escape.

 

31 minutes ago, tajj7 said:

Not exactly fun, CVs are completely hard countering DDs right now and there is very little they can do about it, making playing the class pretty much pointless. 

IMO, no. But i only played the DD at lower tiers - managed to kill the CV... 

RADAR might be the thing that ruins it at higher tiers though.

[Uglesett]

23 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Well, that is ONE problem identified. Nerf rockets - I agree, too. Two attacks (from one flight) usually kill a DD.

Alpha damage needs to be less - maybe more fire damage so they can go pester BBs. This is BALANCE-ABLE.

Doubtful.

 

I doubt they will be able to have rocket planes in the game in a form that is of any kind of use and still have DDs be playable in a game with a CV. 

 

And it is not necessary for the CV to have access to weapons that hard counter all three other classes. There is no gameplay reason why the rocket planes cannot simply be removed. That was always one of the balancing factors pre 0.8.0 - sure, DDs didn't have terribly good defences against aircraft, but at the same time CV weapons weren't for the most part that good against DDs. Torps could usually be dodged, even cross drops (with some of the more sluggish DDs as exceptions), and dive bombers with their large spread tended to be at least fairly random in how much damage they could do.

 

Quote

Because the blob is stupid. That blob needs to realise if the want to win, they need to protect the DD.

How?

 

How do you, in this meta "protect the DD"? I mean, with the RTS CVs, you could actually have a DD flank or push forwards into a cap, and your own CV could protect it with their fighters.

 

What tools does the team have to protect a DD now, aside from forming a blob and having the DD hide behind the skirts of the cruisers?

 

Quote

Actually that AA cruiser needs to support the DD by following near the cap. It is a L2P issue.

May I point out that AA in 0.8.0 follows line of sight rules?

 

I mean, let's analyze this a bit:

-The CL/CA needs to follow close enough to a DD to actually contribute meaningfully to its air defence. Not just "keep it within its long range AA aura" as was the case pre 0.8.0, but actually stick close enough to do non-negligible damage to attackers before they're finished dumping their load.

-It needs to do this without getting blapped by BBs, which means it needs to keep cover between itself and the enemy team

-This cover unfortunately works both ways, and can be used by the enemy CV to protect their planes.

-And, a good CV can easily attack cruisers hiding behind islands by using the terrain to mask their aircraft's approach.

[thiextar]

6 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

I did not find so in lower tiers, no did we at T7 - but we were in div. Hood supporting Sims.

It probably means he AA cruisers are useless. 

 

The support is what matters, they're sort of chickenshits right now.

Granted - the rockets need changing. To kill a DD in ONE flight is a no-no. 

CV should at least need 2 flights, giving DD time to escape.

 

IMO, no. But i only played the DD at lower tiers - managed to kill the CV... 

RADAR might be the thing that ruins it at higher tiers though.

Low tiers dont matter, high tiers do.

 

The problem is that the reworkded cvs are actually blatantly overpowered vs single ships, no matter the aa-spec, that is why these massive blobs are forming, and also why they wont stop being meta until the cvs change. This is the entire reason why people feel like cvs are somehow weak right now, because the entire enemy team blobs up to defend themselves vs the cv....

 

The cv has forced a meta that is bad for the cv, its ridiculus, but its true. Now the only class that loses more on this meta than cvs does, is dds.

 

Its not a l2p issue, because the blob meta simply will not stop. Its a very simple meta that requires little teamwork and is effective at defending vs planes, such a meta is perfect for 12 random dudes with no communication.

 

The only solution is to change the factor that is forcing this meta.