The Mutsuki (T6 Japanese Destroyer)

[DestoryerO_o]

After playing it and looking at the stats I tend to the conclusion that the Minekaze is the best destroyer in the game. Not just at its tier, but for all tiers. OK, the guns are terrible and there are DDs with a more powerful torpedo broadside. But I don't think there are other DDs that combine its concealment, speed and maneuverability with such a quick torpedo reload. That is all I need from a DD. And all that with tier V MM. No wonder higher tier DDs feel a bit redundant.

 

^This!

It seams that the fun factor is just sinking lower and lower after Minekaze.

No idea why they did this to the IJN DD line, While giving the USN highest tier DDs the same ability to shoot their Torps unseen (like IJN DD) while still having those merry-go-round Guns.

[Fominator]

Minekaze is the best destroyer in the game.

 

I've saying it for weeks. Lowest detectability in game (shared with Mutsuki), maximum speed in game (shared with other DDs), great maneuverability, same HP than all DDs (1 shot), more or nearly equal DPM than the next DDs in the line (including Shimakaze), without facing high tier ships and able to spam torpedoes (missing a  volley because some guy decides to crash into an island isn't exactly fun at tier 10).

 

I hope GW will buff the other ones, since in the data from the RU server they have terrible stats.

[Flesheater]

All the destroyer up to Minekaze were really fun to play. Minekaze is really good and i also was very disappointed with the next tier. It is utterly useless.I'll just sell it and go back to Minekaze and have fun again.

[Fominator]

I'll just sell it and go back to Minekaze and have fun again.

 

C'mon, at least I grinded until tier 10 before doing that.

 

 I had premium and enough free XP to skip Hatsuharu though.

 

[Orlunu]

So, how does that playstyle look like? Could you elaborate a little on this? Would be really interesting to know

How? She have worse  torpedoes one tier higher, they only think she have is better AA, and usually you want to turn off your AA batteries.

 

She has a lower torpedo reload time, yes: actually, that hardly matters.  By this tier you shouldn't just be derp-rushing the enemy the whole time.  Fire your spreads, pull back, check your map, move where you're most useful.

 

Lesson the first:

Not all DPM is born equal.

Minekazi has a higher DPM than Mutsuki.  It also has to stay in the "danger zone" for a far greater portion of its time to use it.  Torpedo runs are like "peek-a-boom" in WoT; during the dead time there is no fire going either way, so this time is safe and should be discounted when considering the DPM comparison between the parties engaged.  It is the "reduced DPM", being the damage output per minute in combat range, that decides how a combat goes.  Mutsuki has a lower pure DPM than the Minekaze, but she has a vastly better reduced DPM.

 

Lesson the second:

Destroyers are gankers.

One of the destroyer's main advantages is its ability to get to other places in a timely and intact manner.  A well played destroyer will often be disengaging from a won or lost fight in order to join one in the balance, to contest caps, to quickly nip around an island and wiggle into a weak point, and so on.  Doing so seriously hurts Minekaze's DPM, but not so much for Mutsuki.  As I've said before, this pure DPM matters less than the reduced DPM, but it's still worthy of consideration.  More importantly, having that low reload / low alpha setup on the Minekaze has the psychological effect of discouraging her cap'n from disengaging as freely as he should.  Note, this takes away from disadvantages given by Mutsuki's lower torp RoF.

 

Lesson the third:

If there ain't a good place to be fightin', don't be fightin'.

Quite often, the destroyer captain looks at the map and sees a couple of battle lines formed up, and no safe approach.  "Well," says he, "this is bad.  Guess I'll just have to give it my best."  Then he valiantly goes and sinks in exchange for one torpedo hit on the enemy.  This is a bad exchange.  He would be far better hanging back until an opportunity presents itself for him to engage his ship advantageously.  In that down time, you have the choice to (a) sail in circles whilst alt-tabbed, or equivalent, or (b) provide AA picket.  She's a destroyer, she doesn't have great AA, but you can run alongside a squadron and happily shoot down three planes in the time it takes to go past -- you did give up half your primary battery for moar dakka, after all.  Your BB won't actually thank you for saving him from three aerial torpedo hits, they never do, but it is actually quite useful for him.  A minor role, you may say, but this is time that the Minekaze best spends doing literally nothing.  Note, this takes away from disadvantages given by Mutsuki's lower torp RoF.

 

Lesson the fourth:

Japanese destroyers' guns are distractions.

They're there so that enemies look at you rather than your torpedoes when you get bogged down in a knife fight.  That's how you get torpedo kills against destroyers, and pretty damn reliably.  Yes, you have a crap primary armament.  It's still pretty much as good at its job, though.

 

 

Mutsuki does two things: big alpha and map control.  The thing is that they work beautifully well together and she does them both exceedingly well.

Judging the best by stat:

Torpedoes: Mutsuki

(Map) Manoeuvrability: Mutsuki

AA: Mutsuki

Artillery: lol wat, even or near as damn it

 

 

She requires a far more strategic style of play, and you should devote more of your time and attention to her minimap than anything else, but that's how DDs are best played.  As I said, she'll teach you how to DD right or make you give up trying.  Plan a route in and out, go in, launch your salvo when it's just right, get out, eyes to the minimap, observe (the whole map), reassess, get planning again.

 

I agree that she is underpowered, and that's basically because Gaijin have made the later Japanese torpedoes too weak ('cos they don't know how torpedoing works in game, or so it seems), but she is definitely better than Minekaze.  Just not "better" enough for the tier's gap.

[Fominator]

...

 

I must disagree, Mutsuki "alpha" is barely 2k more per torpedo, and her torpedoes are 4kts slower.

 

The rest of the things you pointed, Minekaze can do the same or better facing enemies 1 tier lower, except for the AA. Maybe is just me and, according the the only published stats, all the Russian server (You can claim "ad populum" if you want) the only ones who do better with Minekaze.

 

Also, the fact you have a 62% winrate and 0.75 average warships destroyed per game with Minekaze and 28% WR and  0.46 with Mutsuki doesn't help your agument, but guess the sample size is low and battles too random, right?

[Takeda92]

I agree that she is underpowered, and that's basically because Gaijin have made the later Japanese torpedoes too weak ('cos they don't know how torpedoing works in game, or so it seems), but she is definitely better than Minekaze.  Just not "better" enough for the tier's gap.

wrong company dude 

 

 

Anyway, a ship demanding a high skill from the player as opposed to other ships isn't balanced. A good player can make any ship shine. The question is: how often!

[Orlunu]

wrong company dude 

 

 

Anyway, a ship demanding a high skill from the player as opposed to other ships isn't balanced. A good player can make any ship shine. The question is: how often!

I'm tired, alright. 

 

I would agree with the second part, but not the first.  Ships should only be balanced off how good players do in them.

 

The rest of the things you pointed, Minekaze can do the same or better facing enemies 1 tier lower, except for the AA. Maybe is just me and, according the the only published stats, all the Russian server (You can claim "ad populum" if you want) the only ones who do better with Minekaze.

 

Also, the fact you have a 62% winrate and 0.75 average warships destroyed per game with Minekaze and 28% WR and  0.46 with Mutsuki doesn't help your agument, but guess the sample size is low and battles too random, right?

I said, myself, that she isn't as good tier-for-tier.  It's just that people claim she's worse irrespective of that, which is untrue.

 

I ground through the Mutsuki in one night when I hadn't slept for the previous two.  In alpha my stats were still a little worse in her, but nowhere near that much worse.  

To partially demonstrate that the good battle for good battle comparison is a little more favourable, I do have a higher max damage in her.

On top of that, she has a far higher skill ceiling and I'm far from the best player.  Hell, I quite often die because I even alt-tab out mid battle to play Kancolle (sry, teams).

 

I'll go back and play her a bit more once I'm not so busy, though, just to check I didn't miss anything.

 

 

 

 

Basically, yes, she is worse tier for tier, no, she is not absolutely worse.  A fix for high tier IJN torps would fix her and many other IJN ships just fine.

[Takeda92]

And that's why I suggested before, give Mutsuki Type 93 torps (name only, stats remain unchanged) and give type 93 way better stealth than any other torpedo that makes it hard to dodge all torpedoes even for aware targets. The fact she only has 6 torpedoes and 1:30 minute reload will balance it out.

[Fominator]

Hell, I quite often die because I even alt-tab out mid battle to play Kancolle (sry, teams).

 

I only do that for expeditions.

 

A fix for high tier IJN torps would fix her and many other IJN ships just fine.

 

Well, Mutsuki onwards they were build following the IJN doctrine to be platforms for the type 93 torpedoes, and they don't have them.

[Orlunu]

And that's why I suggested before, give Mutsuki Type 93 torps (name only, stats remain unchanged) and give type 93 way better stealth than any other torpedo that makes it hard to dodge all torpedoes even for aware targets. The fact she only has 6 torpedoes and 1:30 minute reload will balance it out.

 

Stealth buff would be my preferred buff to IJN 610mm torps, yes.  I think it could fix a whole load of the game's current balance problems.

[Boevebeest]

I hated the thing with a vengeance.

Next one doesn't seem much better, just do my double daily on it and sometimes try a mission, but not grinding the line further.

 

*Edit*

But I'm not a great DD player. Liked the low tier IJN DD's, but from tier 4 and up I couldn't be bothered with them anymore.

They pay to much in all other stats/ability's for the extra torpedo range. And their torps suck, to slow.

 

[MeanGreenUnseen]

I agree that she is underpowered, and that's basically because Gaijin have made the later Japanese torpedoes too weak ('cos they don't know how torpedoing works in game, or so it seems), but she is definitely better than Minekaze.  Just not "better" enough for the tier's gap.

 

Just wondering, have you noticed that you have 62% winrate with Minekaze, yet 31% with Mutsuki and 37% with Hatsuharu?

 

Words are words, stats are stats.

[Orlunu]

 

Just wondering, have you noticed that you have 62% winrate with Minekaze, yet 31% with Mutsuki and 37% with Hatsuharu?

 

Words are words, stats are stats.

I said, myself, that she isn't as good tier-for-tier.  It's just that people claim she's worse irrespective of that, which is untrue.

 

I ground through the Mutsuki in one night when I hadn't slept for the previous two.  In alpha my stats were still a little worse in her, but nowhere near that much worse.  

To partially demonstrate that the good battle for good battle comparison is a little more favourable, I do have a higher max damage in her.

On top of that, she has a far higher skill ceiling and I'm far from the best player.  Hell, I quite often die because I even alt-tab out mid battle to play Kancolle (sry, teams).

 

I'll go back and play her a bit more once I'm not so busy, though, just to check I didn't miss anything.

 

Basically, yes, she is worse tier for tier, no, she is not absolutely worse.  A fix for high tier IJN torps would fix her and many other IJN ships just fine.

 

Funny mindset that bothers to check my stats but not my posts in the same thread.

[Aerroon]

I play the Mutsuki similarly to the Minekaze and it works ok. It's not really any better than the tier 5 I don't think, but its not a lot worse either. its kind of meh.

 

Which is probably why your Mutsuki winrate is so low compared to your Minekaze winrate.

 

Just to preempt: my Minekaze winrate is low because I play throwaway games in my Minekaze even now. When I am bored I hop in my Minekaze and go rush a battleship and then tap out after I'm dead. Sometimes I am successful and kill them before they kill me but mostly it's just a 1 for 1 trade.

[dennez]

Imo. the Mutsuki is a horrible letdown after the Minekaze.. Double the reload and useless guns make you sit around idle for 80% of the game, while the Minekaze can commit to a fight and stay in it. When i join a high tier division i'll gladly take my Minekaze, even in a tier X fight it's still very dangerous.

A Minekaze with a skilled captain (extra smokes, situational awareness, torp reload reduction, detection range reduction) can take on just about any other ship in the game and come out a winner.

 

[Takeda92]

Guys, don't go attack other people based on their winrate and such. we all agree Mutsuki could use a second look and I was kind of hoping devs would address the IJN line issue in the next patch. but since their cruisers will get some love there's still hope for the DDs as well.

[TheGreatSunJester]

 

Which is probably why your Mutsuki winrate is so low compared to your Minekaze winrate.

 

Just to preempt: my Minekaze winrate is low because I play throwaway games in my Minekaze even now. When I am bored I hop in my Minekaze and go rush a battleship and then tap out after I'm dead. Sometimes I am successful and kill them before they kill me but mostly it's just a 1 for 1 trade.

 

I'd say that's probably because I played it with the 6km torps for about half those games actually. Dear god those things suck. I generally feel like a do as well in the Mutsuki as I did in the Minekaze now that I have the 10km torps, and my best game has been in the Mutsuki now that I can properly stealth it again.

 

I totally agree that tier for tier its not as good a ship, but its not terrible. I think it's more a reflection on how good the Minekaze is than that the Mutsuki is necessarily bad. Another think that also needs to be accounted for is that the level of opponent skill goes up as you go up the tiers, so they're better at dodging torps, staying out of ambush sites etc.

[Broevaharo]

After playing it and looking at the stats I tend to the conclusion that the Minekaze is the best destroyer in the game. Not just at its tier, but for all tiers. OK, the guns are terrible and there are DDs with a more powerful torpedo broadside. But I don't think there are other DDs that combine its concealment, speed and maneuverability with such a quick torpedo reload. That is all I need from a DD. And all that with tier V MM. No wonder higher tier DDs feel a bit redundant.

 

Yep have to agree on that one, it is by far the easiest one to play and the most fun one to play (although I really, really love my Sims)

All IJN DD's after the Minekaze are worse while the repair bill goes up bigtime so there is no reason at all at the moment to progress over tier 5 on the IJn line, I am doing it for the reason of testing (on the Kagero right now) but if this game goes life with the current setup of the IJn DD line and the spotting ranges of torpedoes I won't be going higher than tier 5, period.

[MeanGreenUnseen]

Guys, don't go attack other people based on their winrate and such. we all agree Mutsuki could use a second look and I was kind of hoping devs would address the IJN line issue in the next patch. but since their cruisers will get some love there's still hope for the DDs as well.

 

I just wanted to bring some numbers in for comparison, really. Nothing says better about the ship difference than double the winrate in one of them and an abysmal one in another.

 

 

Funny mindset that bothers to check my stats but not my posts in the same thread.

 

Sincere apologies. Tbh just skimmed through everything because I'm not really up for a discussion. In fact, I brought your winrate just to emphasize how big of a difference is between Minekaze and higher tier ships. As for me, well, I could pull out my own stats but I suck with both of them so it's hardly relevant, and you seemed to be into DDs much more than I am. I sincerely hate the state of all DDs at the moment, and i mostly play them only to get the daily exp bonus.

 

I hope we can all agree that the "fun" factor of higher tier IJN DDs is terribly low though, and climbing the tiers shows no promise.

[Orlunu]

Sincere apologies. Tbh just skimmed through everything because I'm not really up for a discussion. In fact, I brought your winrate just to emphasize how big of a difference is between Minekaze and higher tier ships. As for me, well, I could pull out my own stats but I suck with both of them so it's hardly relevant, and you seemed to be into DDs much more than I am. I sincerely hate the state of all DDs at the moment, and i mostly play them only to get the daily exp bonus.

 

I hope we can all agree that the "fun" factor of higher tier IJN DDs is terribly low though, and climbing the tiers shows no promise.

No problem, I was just poking fun a bit.  I do agree with you that it's worse tier-for-tier.

 

I can agree with the one exception of Shimakaze.  She's wonderful.  They'd just better make Arashio good when she gets in.  

[Fominator]

 I think it's more a reflection on how good the Minekaze is than that the Mutsuki is necessarily bad.

 

Ha ha, another chance to post stats. I love them when they give me the reason.

 

 

Yes, red line is the IJN DDs.

 

I hope we can all agree that the "fun" factor of higher tier IJN DDs is terribly low though, and climbing the tiers shows no promise.

 

I had a blast with both DD lines during the CAT. Now only Minekaze is fun, the rest are boring, unrewarding and frustrating.

[TheGreatSunJester]

 

Ha ha, another chance to post stats. I love them when they give me the reason.

 

 

Yes, red line is the IJN DDs.

Great, what's the rest of the graph mean? I'm guessing it showing average win rating, but I don't speak Russian. Is that correct? I'm not saying that there's nothing wrong with the higher tier IJN dds, I've not played anything beyond the Mutsuki so it would be wrong of me to comment seeing as I know nothing about them and how they play, and from that graph it does seem like there is something very wrong with them from tier 6 up.

 

My comments on the Mutsuki are entirely my own opinion based on my own experiences in the ships. I'm not saying nothing needs changed, just that I don't think its as bad as people make out. I personally haven't found the Mutsuki to be that bad a ship once its fully upgraded, but that might be more to do with me and my playstyle suiting the ship. For example, the M3 Lee is pretty much universally regarded as the worst tank in WoT, but some people still like it.

[Flesheater]

 

Ha ha, another chance to post stats. I love them when they give me the reason.

 

 

Yes, red line is the IJN DDs.

 

 

I had a blast with both DD lines during the CAT. Now only Minekaze is fun, the rest are boring, unrewarding and frustrating.

 

Nice graph. =)

[DestoryerO_o]

They will have to do something about higher tier IJN Destroyers, or, simply, no one in their right mind will be playing them at the release.

 

(unless there are players that moved here from some Amoeba simulators)

 

The Players that play light units in games play them cos they enjoy fast, dynamic and adrenaline-filled play-styles. While WoT LT lines give you that, WoWS IJN DD line is totally ruined at higher tiers for not having it.