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Aggressiveness

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So since playing on my EU account I have noticed a complete lack of Aggressiveness among T6-8 players.  They hang back, when they could easily take caps.  They don't push when they need to push.  Why do you think that is?

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The internet

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4 minutes ago, Draagun said:

So since playing on my EU account I have noticed a complete lack of Aggressiveness among T6-8 players.  They hang back, when they could easily take caps.  They don't push when they need to push.  Why do you think that is?

Same reason as always. People want to shoot other boats, not get shot by other boats. Also some still believe in lowering repair costs by not taking damage

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9 minutes ago, Draagun said:

So since playing on my EU account I have noticed a complete lack of Aggressiveness among T6-8 players.  They hang back, when they could easily take caps.  They don't push when they need to push.  Why do you think that is?

wait for tier 8-10 lol

then u start wondering how those ppl are able to eat & breath

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damn...nobody saw that right? wrong thread

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Its the different mentality of Us Americans and European people:

 

If you say jump to an american he will ask how far or high?

If you say jump to an european he will ask why?

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IDK from which server you originally came from OP. I've quite recently started a NA account. And I must say there is even a less degree of aggression compared my experience on EU. And I can't entirely blame the players. In my experience there is a extreme thin red line in this game between over- and under aggression. Over extension is heavily punished. And staying too far back doesn't yield any result as well. The biggest "art" in wows is positioning and knowing when to be aggressive and when not.

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Meanwhile, during my latest string of defeats in destroyers, the problem has been the polar opposite. One would expect that when I delete the enemy destroyers and gain cap control, my team mates would play intelligently but they rush into the enemy lemmingtrain to die. I mean, I had three defeats in a row where I torped the enemy destroyer (at the very start) in my Gearing and capped two objectives. Clearly, there was so much lack of aggressiveness that my team mates had to push at dumb locations to compensate!

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2 minutes ago, Ferry_25 said:

The biggest "art" in wows is positioning and knowing when to be aggressive and when not.

bascily this. if u master this then you get far .  But most ppl do not have the confidence im afraid.

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7 minutes ago, lameoll said:

bascily this. if u master this then you get far .  But most ppl do not have the confidence im afraid.

And at almost 10k random matches I still struggle to play positioning optimally. At least I can say in very good confidence I'm being very persistent.... In screwing up that is. I still find it so hard to find optimal positions and still get caught with my pants down very often.

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Just now, Ferry_25 said:

al positions and still get caught with my pants down very often.

mye even i have the occasional game where my position is just not good. and i consider myself to be a pretty good player. It just happens from time to time.

The problem is when ppl have that every game when they have no clue to where to go and they just wing it.

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Nah, your all wrong. That's new enamel on the egg shell not wanting to be scratch is all.

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7 hours ago, lameoll said:

mye even i have the occasional game where my position is just not good. and i consider myself to be a pretty good player. It just happens from time to time.

The problem is when ppl have that every game when they have no clue to where to go and they just wing it.

In many matches I'll get to a "good" spot, but a spot being good or not isn't entirely up to me. It depends on how my teammates play as well, if the island I am behind is perfect to cover two cap points, but everyone lemming trains to the third cap then I'm kind of screwed.

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9 hours ago, Draagun said:

So since playing on my EU account I have noticed a complete lack of Aggressiveness among T6-8 players.  They hang back, when they could easily take caps.  They don't push when they need to push.  Why do you think that is?

The question is: how could you use this timidness in the enemy team to your advantage to help you win the game?

 

There's no point in analysing why players play in a certain way. There's nothing you can do about how other people play. What you can control is how you play in response to how others play. Which may mean that the patient gameplay in this game isn't for you as you'd rather not play in such an environment at all and that a Call of Duty type game would be more your style.

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IMO Aggression will only work if it's a group mentality thing. Otherwise you just end up trying to yolo a cap or half the enemy team on your own. You get that sinking feeling when you noticed that the couple of ships you assumed were there to back you up have quietly turned around and are now instead bunched up behind that big island way back in the rear.

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On 1/27/2019 at 12:43 AM, Kartoffelmos said:

Meanwhile, during my latest string of defeats in destroyers, the problem has been the polar opposite. One would expect that when I delete the enemy destroyers and gain cap control, my team mates would play intelligently but they rush into the enemy lemmingtrain to die. I mean, I had three defeats in a row where I torped the enemy destroyer (at the very start) in my Gearing and capped two objectives. Clearly, there was so much lack of aggressiveness that my team mates had to push at dumb locations to compensate!

I think the common theory is that if you get an early lead your team gets confident, they feel they're going to win, but they want to actually gain something from the match, and thanks to WG patented "working as intended" economy, they have to do damage to gain it. So they yolo one by one and die pathetically, tearing the defeat from the jaws of victory.

 

 

On 1/27/2019 at 12:55 AM, lameoll said:

The problem is when ppl have that every game when they have no clue to where to go and they just wing it.

I'm honestly kinda bad at strategy too, so I also tend to wing it a bit. But at least I have some combat skill to compensate with. Most players don't.

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On 1/26/2019 at 11:03 PM, Draagun said:

So since playing on my EU account I have noticed a complete lack of Aggressiveness among T6-8 players.  They hang back, when they could easily take caps.  They don't push when they need to push.  Why do you think that is?

All that is fine lad. They are just giving you the chance to take the initiative and do it instead. :Smile_Default:

 

But TBH. Sometimes you get the passive teams, sometimes then again ones that are way TOO aggressive and push, when they should defend instead. I have lost a few games, because our side kept pushing into a torpedo wall and / or got picked off one-by-one due to over extending and true enough - I have been guilty of that myself also so cannot entirely fault the team there either. To an extent defensive gameplay is stronger, because it allows you to spot and pick off those Yolo-ing and pushing early on giving the defending team a numerical and firepower advantage, however it is a fine balancing act - Play defensively for too long, especially in Epicenter or Domination mode and you will lose for sure, in Standard mode playing defensive quite often works the best though. It kinda depends on the situation and on players being able to adapt their personal playstyle accordingly, sadly m,any are not able or willing to do this and will obstinately stick to doing the same thing regardless of situation or game mode. :cap_hmm:

 

Therefore, since playing defensive yields certain advantage early on in the game, there will always be tendency to stick to it for too long, because it feels "safe" and is naturally less risky. After all, playing aggressively always also means accepting risk and while it occasionally yields spectacular results, it may equally well lead to early demise and 0-sum result (yupp, happens to me often enough for exactly the said reasons, hehehe). Many players, especially those who are relatively new or unskilled therefore logically will lack confidence in their own skills and often also sufficient situational awareness to be able to accurately judge when to change tactics. For all these players risk avoidance will in fact always remain be the predominant tactic. I cannot say it is wrong either, have seen enough of Yolo-noobs getting one shotted in my time to understand that oftentimes discretion indeed would be the better part of valor. It does require some experience and keen "eye" for situations to correctlyy judge, when the time has come to make your move - And lots of patience to boot. :cap_old:

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Also another thing about the aggressive vs defensive, it requires a lot more resources to breach a defensive line then the defensive line needs to invest. In other words, to get through a defensive formation in ships, it is highly recommend that you have a numbers advantage on your flank In any way if you want to be aggressive, preferably a 2 to 1 ratio for the best chance of success (assuming that everyone is competent) I’m gonna provide an example with wot:

 

there is a low health kv2 and 2 hellcats left, and if the hellcats went to win the game, they have to attack the kv2, and the kv2 is in a position where they can only attack from the front, with a rock That kv2 can use for cover. The issue is that one of the hellcats effectively HAVE to sacrifice itself to the kv2 derp gun(kv2 can effectively make a hellcat turn into dust with one shot anywhere), so that the other one can kill it while it’s on reload. That is where the problem arises, all the kv2 needs to do is to be patient, while there is always going to be a casualty to one of the hellcats no matter what they do. often one hellcat goes to attack the kv2, gets vaporised, the other one just sits there because he cannot find his balls and then attack after the kv2 has reloaded, getting vaporised as well. 

 

Hence it is the same case with wows, a USN crusier once it gets into a entrenched position or a BB being close enough to a cap but has plenty of island to play with/kiting position, it is very hard to dislodge or kill it without a significant nurmical advantage and some luck with RNGods, which is the reason for all of the passiveness.

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It's simple.

 

The majority of players don't know/care what their ships are actually designed to do.

 

BB players refuse to take damage.

CA refuse to support the other ships.

DD forget there are in a DD and either die very quick or don't spot for the team.

 

In a nut shell.. 

 

1) Battleship players need to at least half tank and use that HP else the cruisers end up getting it all game.  if the BB's arent taking damage then the poor cruisers are (this happens alot).

2) Cruisers need to support other ships.  If they don't then the writing is on the wall within the first 2 mins of the game.

3) DD's need to spot and be the eyes of the team.  If they go swanning off to find the enemy CV then it's game over. 

 

Half is the PLAYERS fault but WG hasn't helped and should bare part of the responsibility..  Producing more and more cruiser killing machines (jean Bert, blanacedGrad, Borg ect), more and more radar ships and HE firing BB's has completely messed up the roles of different ships.

 

Why support a BB when they are more than capable of taking planes AND DD's on themselves?

Why Support cruisers when they can simply burn down Battleships on their own?

Why spot other ships when you have Battleship with more concealment then crusiers? (not including spotter planes and such).

 

It's all messed up. 

 

Battleships should be smashing the hell out of other Battleships.  However, as soon as a cruiser turns up, HE is now the preferred target and gets walloped. Cruisers are more concerned about burning Battleships to the ground.  At least DD players have a go at their opposite class half the time, unless you factor in ships like the hara that can simply burn either a 32mm BB or cruiser down to the ground.

 

And now you have Battlecrusiers (Alaska, Blancegrad ect) that can do both, and very well too.  They should do as they ARE battlecrusiers afterall, however they can do both too well for my liking with little cons. 

 

Really is messed up IMHO.

 

How are casual/new players supposed to know now what Class is supposed to do what? I don't blame them. :cap_tea:

 

Do you remember the days when you used to see a cruiser AA support your friendly CV? Now i know that might have been a good or bad thing, but at least the THOUGHT ABOUT TEAMWORK was there, regardless if it helped or not.

 

Ships have become far too self sufficient to let teamwork get in the way. 

 

Anyway, adding to the problems is that defensive postures in randoms is FAR easier to win any random battle with.  Trying to hold players back when you are blatantly winning the game is the hardest thing to do IMHO. People want to FARM DAMAGE and teamwork can take a hike. 

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To be honest, lack of aggressiveness can be attributed to a couple of factors, none of which is the sole contributor to the problem.

 

1) Positioning and timing

 

Very hard to pull off, even with a couple of thousand battles under your belt. Requires you to constantly read and comprehend the minimap, just like a real admiral or general would need to read the flow of an ongoing battle. Timing and positioning is of the essence in order to not overextend and die a premature death! And because this is not at all easy to pull off most people will act cautious after the first couple of bad experiences. Also as already mentioned defense always requires less forces and effort than offense.

 

2) Teamwork

 

Very controversal and complex topic because some design decisions or rather concessions are making proper and intuitive teamwork difficult. For example ship roles. All good on paper until it comes to a couple of critical issues like XP rewards and/or ship interaction. For all classes the main factor that determines credit and XP income is raw damage done, not tanking, not scouting, not supporting. So as true teamwork is rewarded so little it is no wonder that everybody is playing for themselves. And regarding ship interaction the decision that everybody needs to be able to fight anyone is also hampering teamplay (it is the correct decision for a multiplayer game, however not at all helping teamplay). IRL no BB captain with a sane mind would prioritize a cruiser over an enemy battleship, simply because the cruiser will most likely not be able to critically damage your own ship, whereas the enemy BB easily could. In game however the cruiser will easily demolish or sink your BB and maybe doing so even faster than the enemy BB would because of DPM. So the next logical step is to eliminate the equally dangerous but much weaker target first, which leads to the known BB vs CA target priority even if suitable enemy BB targets are around.

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On 1/27/2019 at 8:26 AM, JimmyThePirate said:

In many matches I'll get to a "good" spot, but a spot being good or not isn't entirely up to me. It depends on how my teammates play as well, if the island I am behind is perfect to cover two cap points, but everyone lemming trains to the third cap then I'm kind of screwed.

But then its not a good spot, is it?

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On 1/27/2019 at 7:26 AM, JimmyThePirate said:

In many matches I'll get to a "good" spot, but a spot being good or not isn't entirely up to me. It depends on how my teammates play as well, if the island I am behind is perfect to cover two cap points, but everyone lemming trains to the third cap then I'm kind of screwed.

This is the big hurdle that lots of players never quite get over - sure its a great spot IF your team go in that direction. If they dont't, then its not a good spot.

An average player will go to that spot anyway, then complain about no support.

A better player might well grumble about the team, but will move to a spot better suited to where the rest of the team is.

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On 1/27/2019 at 12:31 AM, Arakus said:

Its the different mentality of Us Americans and European people:

 

If you say jump to an american he will ask how far or high?

If you say jump to an european he will ask why?

Dont be silly, Americans can not jump because they are all obese.

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