Z52 needs some love

[Hugh_Ruka]

17 hours ago, Panocek said:

And what you would be willing to trade for? Because Z-52 is purposefully kept mediocre to "balance" 6km hydro.

I thought that 6km hydro was balanced by the bad HE DPM ? Like YY Radar was balanced by nerfing the HE DPM to the ground ... so killing the ship that ends up in your hydro range is depending on your allies shooting at it ...

 

Can we balance radar ships like that as well ? Like active radar nerfs their reload ? would be golden ...

[Panocek]

5 minutes ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

I thought that 6km hydro was balanced by the bad HE DPM ? Like YY Radar was balanced by nerfing the HE DPM to the ground ... so killing the ship that ends up in your hydro range is depending on your allies shooting at it ...

 

Can we balance radar ships like that as well ? Like active radar nerfs their reload ? would be golden ...

HE DPM is offset by disturbingly potent AP in terms of damage, trait rather common in German ships with small and medium caliber guns. 

Grozovoi torps are far from glory one would expect of Russian ship in Russian game. With gun DPM being nothing to write home about either. Gimmick of "AA" was neutered to hell, so you're stuck with ship having identity crisis and then getting all the buttons in hope of fixing that.

[Hugh_Ruka]

42 minutes ago, Panocek said:

HE DPM is offset by disturbingly potent AP in terms of damage, trait rather common in German ships with small and medium caliber guns. 

Grozovoi torps are far from glory one would expect of Russian ship in Russian game. With gun DPM being nothing to write home about either. Gimmick of "AA" was neutered to hell, so you're stuck with ship having identity crisis and then getting all the buttons in hope of fixing that.

Grozovoi built for guns has very good DPM ...

 

The potent AP is sadly not really useful in normal situations .... I have killed a few Z-52s that I simply rushed into their smoke in my Grozovoi while they had hydro active and could see me coming all the way ... they simply could not do anything to me either AP or HE ...

 

Even the RN DDs are much more used with HE and they have improved pen angles ...

[Panocek]

6 minutes ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

Grozovoi built for guns has very good DPM ...

 

The potent AP is sadly not really useful in normal situations .... I have killed a few Z-52s that I simply rushed into their smoke in my Grozovoi while they had hydro active and could see me coming all the way ... they simply could not do anything to me either AP or HE ...

 

Even the RN DDs are much more used with HE and they have improved pen angles ...

So is Zed when you spec for guns... Or shimakaze for that matter.

[Duka_Srb]

On 3/1/2020 at 4:47 PM, Panocek said:

And what you would be willing to trade for? Because Z-52 is purposefully kept mediocre to "balance" 6km hydro.

 I don't know what  because guns are underperforming too.

[hellbolt]

Yes, the AP is really poor on anything other than broadside. When angled the HE is also underperforming. Toprs have low damage and mediocre range and similar config DD's are now having access to heal.

Just like Hindenburg this ship is slowly powercreeped.

[nerderklaus]

On 3/4/2020 at 7:42 PM, hellbolt said:

Just like Hindenburg this ship is slowly powercreeped.

Hindenburg has the special 30mm armor denied by recent 430mm+ BBs and additionally Russian test ships get a reinforced bow area so that shells dispersing there ricochet.

 

Z-52 seems just to be a gimmick. I don't know why I should grind it over Shima, Haru, Gearing, Kleber or Halland.

[lafeel]

10 hours ago, nerderklaus said:

Hindenburg has the special 30mm armor denied by recent 430mm+ BBs and additionally Russian test ships get a reinforced bow area so that shells dispersing there ricochet.

 

Hindenburg also has "built in" German ifhe, which does have it's uses..

[nerderklaus]

17 hours ago, lafeel said:

Hindenburg also has "built in" German ifhe, which does have it's uses..

Stalingrad

Super pen + Super Spread + Improved Angles + Improved Fuses to add up

 

Hind

Super pen + mediocore fire chance + low alpha to compensate

 

Just to show what I mean by different standards for German ships. I mean there are other lines that are royally screwed as well, f.e. many PA DDs in randoms, IT CA when you aren't getting carried by your team a lot, IJN torp DD getting the shitty torp detection

 

German DDs probably benefitted a lot on the BB AP pen changes, no more losing half the HP to a random salvo in most games, but still... More or less all DDs benefitted...

[hellbolt]

Well - regarding German DD's - it gets another oponnent in these Swedish stuff added - torps with low damage but ridiculus speed / reload / range plus fast shooting guns, heal and nice camo values. Superb - i am slowly seeing German DD line as more and more obsolete.

[affie]

On 3/23/2020 at 1:32 PM, hellbolt said:

Well - regarding German DD's - it gets another oponnent in these Swedish stuff added - torps with low damage but ridiculus speed / reload / range plus fast shooting guns, heal and nice camo values. Superb - i am slowly seeing German DD line as more and more obsolete.

Lets hope that the Z-35 suggestion on DevBlog will add something to the German DDs, like the 1/4th penetration for HE shells giving even the DDs 32 mm penetration without IFHE.

[_Teob_]

On 4/10/2020 at 6:13 AM, affie said:

Lets hope that the Z-35 suggestion on DevBlog will add something to the German DDs, like the 1/4th penetration for HE shells giving even the DDs 32 mm penetration without IFHE.

 

Not sure that would help at all. I mean it would be a bit more dmg on Bbs/cruisers but the problem still is that german DDs get out-gunned by pretty much any other DD.

[affie]

30 minutes ago, _Teob_ said:

 

Not sure that would help at all. I mean it would be a bit more dmg on Bbs/cruisers but the problem still is that german DDs get out-gunned by pretty much any other DD.

I agree but it would make them quite opportunistic being able to damage most ships but not be on top DPM-wise. 

 

Since you can build them as quite decent torpedo destroyers with faster relaod than the IKEA ships while having more damage per torpedo but shorter range and only 70 kts. 

 

I would welcome a penetration buff and from my point of view the Daring still needs some more nerfs, specially if you compare it to the nerfs Kleber got. 

[_Teob_]

On 4/14/2020 at 3:28 PM, affie said:

I agree but it would make them quite opportunistic being able to damage most ships but not be on top DPM-wise. 

 

Since you can build them as quite decent torpedo destroyers with faster relaod than the IKEA ships while having more damage per torpedo but shorter range and only 70 kts. 

 

I would welcome a penetration buff and from my point of view the Daring still needs some more nerfs, specially if you compare it to the nerfs Kleber got. 

 

I don't think any DD needs nerfs. I think the Daring is the only properly scary DD right now. Other DDs should be like that, not the other way around.

 

Kleber and Daring are examples of good scary DDs. Gearing, Z52, Khaba are examples of either useless DDs or DDs that can be replaced with better alternatives. 

[affie]

7 hours ago, _Teob_ said:

 

I don't think any DD needs nerfs. I think the Daring is the only properly scary DD right now. Other DDs should be like that, not the other way around.

 

Kleber and Daring are examples of good scary DDs. Gearing, Z52, Khaba are examples of either useless DDs or DDs that can be replaced with better alternatives. 

I like the thought of that, how the Daring and Kleber is the new yardstick and all other shall be buffed to their level of influence. 

 

Question is what changes should be applied to the other DDs to bring them up to the same level. 

 

 

[_Teob_]

22 minutes ago, affie said:

I like the thought of that, how the Daring and Kleber is the new yardstick and all other shall be buffed to their level of influence. 

 

Question is what changes should be applied to the other DDs to bring them up to the same level. 

 

 

 

In the current environment DDs need a way to either mitigate or avoid damage in order to be effective. Smoke used to play a bit part in that in the past but now with the "new and improved" CVs and with the sheer amount of radar ships around, smoke just isn't good anymore.

So DDs need one of two things, either a heal or enough speed to not take damage in the first place. Playing at t10 with around 20k hp in 2020 is just a bit rough imo.

[Hugh_Ruka]

On 4/10/2020 at 6:13 AM, affie said:

Lets hope that the Z-35 suggestion on DevBlog will add something to the German DDs, like the 1/4th penetration for HE shells giving even the DDs 32 mm penetration without IFHE.

I had a quick look az Z-35 when that devblog came live and my impression was "nope, another Z-39 situation" ... can't remember why at this moment, but it did not impress me at all ...

[affie]

On 4/20/2020 at 12:52 AM, Hugh_Ruka said:

I had a quick look az Z-35 when that devblog came live and my impression was "nope, another Z-39 situation" ... can't remember why at this moment, but it did not impress me at all ...

I totally agree, WHAT we need is the experimental Z-51 as a T9 freemium which during testing can try some general improvements for the German destroyers. 

[hellbolt]

On 4/10/2020 at 6:13 AM, affie said:

Lets hope that the Z-35 suggestion on DevBlog will add something to the German DDs, like the 1/4th penetration for HE shells giving even the DDs 32 mm penetration without IFHE.

I 'd say it won't help them since they have the same damage per minute as for example Shimakaze - btw - Shima has much better HE. Torps are poor - Swedish and Brit DD's have more of them with similar reload and better ranges.

Hydro is nothing special now when we have plenty of radar ships around and more and more of them are equipped also with Hydro.

 

The change should go in one of the two ways: either this DD should be more tanky to withstand close range figthing: so HP (heal maybe?) / Armor / Guns improvement like faster reloads + shell improved pen, or move it more to Torp boat with current gun config: torps with high speed (80+ kt) and like 12-13 km ranges. Reload is ok. The description says it has reinforced AA defences - sorry i haven't noticed this reinforcement in battle so far.

[A3iou]

Z is strong, Gearing needs buff... 

 

... Gearing is so 2016

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

I just restarted the grind for the Z52 legendary. This is a weird DD. I did pretty good first 5 matches, but it feels fragile, I think it needs a heal, 2 or 3. Nothing big, just to get up a bit again. The rest is fine, it shouldn't be a DPM gun monster due to the hydro. The torps are decent with the latest upgrades available. I had to get used to it again, the main issue it being so damn fragile.

 

Build below.

 

[ThePurpleSmurf]

I've recently finished the Z-52 legendary grind and it took me only about 2 years  (okay, i haven't played this ship for more than a year)

During the grind i've noticed a few things. While the ship really is in need of a heal or something else to make it more survivable, it is actually playable most of the time if played as a pure gunboat. The ridiculous amount of radar and CVs give it a hard time though. Here are my solo stats from the last 21 days of the recent grind. While the stats look okay for an average Joe like myself, they are really not nearly as high as they should be for a solo DD main. The reason is very obvious on first glance when you look at the number to the right, which is the average planes killed per battle.

 

Now that i have unlocked the legendary upgrade i consider to change the build and play the ship completely different. Screw objectives, screw knife fighting other DDs and play the Z-52 like a cruiser from range and only go for pure damage. For this i'll like to try out 2 different builds: Build one and build two and wonder how much it will suck.

[Hugh_Ruka]

On 10/19/2020 at 6:06 AM, ThePurpleSmurf said:

I've recently finished the Z-52 legendary grind and it took me only about 2 years  (okay, i haven't played this ship for more than a year)

During the grind i've noticed a few things. While the ship really is in need of a heal or something else to make it more survivable, it is actually playable most of the time if played as a pure gunboat. The ridiculous amount of radar and CVs give it a hard time though. Here are my solo stats from the last 21 days of the recent grind. While the stats look okay for an average Joe like myself, they are really not nearly as high as they should be for a solo DD main. The reason is very obvious on first glance when you look at the number to the right, which is the average planes killed per battle.

 

Now that i have unlocked the legendary upgrade i consider to change the build and play the ship completely different. Screw objectives, screw knife fighting other DDs and play the Z-52 like a cruiser from range and only go for pure damage. For this i'll like to try out 2 different builds: Build one and build two and wonder how much it will suck.

I am trying to do the same, my overall winrate is 40% in the Z-52 compared to 61% with the Z-46:

 

 

I am more the scout and cap player, so average damage for me is usually low, but the winrate disparity is quite high here ....

 

[totally_potato]

Well here it comes

A reload buff for the Z-52

On 4/16/2020 at 12:19 PM, _Teob_ said:

 

In the current environment DDs need a way to either mitigate or avoid damage in order to be effective. Smoke used to play a bit part in that in the past but now with the "new and improved" CVs and with the sheer amount of radar ships around, smoke just isn't good anymore.

So DDs need one of two things, either a heal or enough speed to not take damage in the first place. Playing at t10 with around 20k hp in 2020 is just a bit rough imo.

 

On 12/1/2020 at 9:22 PM, Hugh_Ruka said:

I am trying to do the same, my overall winrate is 40% in the Z-52 compared to 61% with the Z-46:

 

 

I am more the scout and cap player, so average damage for me is usually low, but the winrate disparity is quite high here ....

 

 

On 10/19/2020 at 9:36 AM, ThePurpleSmurf said:

I've recently finished the Z-52 legendary grind and it took me only about 2 years  (okay, i haven't played this ship for more than a year)

During the grind i've noticed a few things. While the ship really is in need of a heal or something else to make it more survivable, it is actually playable most of the time if played as a pure gunboat. The ridiculous amount of radar and CVs give it a hard time though. Here are my solo stats from the last 21 days of the recent grind. While the stats look okay for an average Joe like myself, they are really not nearly as high as they should be for a solo DD main. The reason is very obvious on first glance when you look at the number to the right, which is the average planes killed per battle.

 

Now that i have unlocked the legendary upgrade i consider to change the build and play the ship completely different. Screw objectives, screw knife fighting other DDs and play the Z-52 like a cruiser from range and only go for pure damage. For this i'll like to try out 2 different builds: Build one and build two and wonder how much it will suck.

 

On 4/14/2020 at 6:58 PM, affie said:

I agree but it would make them quite opportunistic being able to damage most ships but not be on top DPM-wise. 

 

Since you can build them as quite decent torpedo destroyers with faster relaod than the IKEA ships while having more damage per torpedo but shorter range and only 70 kts. 

 

I would welcome a penetration buff and from my point of view the Daring still needs some more nerfs, specially if you compare it to the nerfs Kleber got. 

It isn't big but its spicy

I think the HE is fine, althought a bit of a damage buff of like 1700

There are a few things that I would still want this DD to have (note it doesn't have to be all of them, only some or one of each):-

• Special pin angles for AP (not DM levels or Daring, more like Petro) and the fuse being reduced to 20mm or 19mm for the Z-23, Z-46 and Z-52. If no special angles then buff the raw pin to atleast more than Shima, Gearing and Halland.
• A bit of a torp buff, I think the speed is fine, the reload is fine although something like 85 seconds won't be unwelcome, but mostly damage. Maybe give it a bit more damage maybe as much as the new sea mine torps of the new German DD split aka 16533. This damage buff should be given to Z-23, Z-46, Z-52 and premium Z-44. Then buff the torp damage of the new German DD spit to 17.5K or something
• Maybe a buff to the number of smokes and add a repair party (3 stock). It could be normal Khaba like Repair party where it takes 28 seconds to get the full effect of the heal and it gives you a fair amount of HP back. Or buff the HP to 21,850 without SE.
• Maybe add a bit more DPS and one or two more flak.

That's it. I'll repeat, not all of these changes, only one or two of these changes can be applied to make Z-52 more in line with other DDs. 

 

 

[totally_potato]

On 10/19/2020 at 9:36 AM, ThePurpleSmurf said:

I've recently finished the Z-52 legendary grind and it took me only about 2 years  (okay, i haven't played this ship for more than a year)

During the grind i've noticed a few things. While the ship really is in need of a heal or something else to make it more survivable, it is actually playable most of the time if played as a pure gunboat. The ridiculous amount of radar and CVs give it a hard time though. Here are my solo stats from the last 21 days of the recent grind. While the stats look okay for an average Joe like myself, they are really not nearly as high as they should be for a solo DD main. The reason is very obvious on first glance when you look at the number to the right, which is the average planes killed per battle.

 

Now that i have unlocked the legendary upgrade i consider to change the build and play the ship completely different. Screw objectives, screw knife fighting other DDs and play the Z-52 like a cruiser from range and only go for pure damage. For this i'll like to try out 2 different builds: Build one and build two and wonder how much it will suck.

A few questions about your build

You went for the full gun build

But how could you miss such essential skills? LS, PM, Concealment?

You took IFHE? When Z-52 already has 32mm pin base, you take IFHE? That cuts your fire chance significantly more than anything.

Sorry to say this but your build is too selfish