Z52 needs some love

[loppantorkel]

20 minutes ago, _Teob_ said:

 

The problem is that currently it gives up too much for the hydro.

A daring for example will quite happily rush you in your smoke while you are hydro-ing him. It will eat a torpedo and still kill you. I am not quite sure what you are meant to do in that situation.

 

I don't think a small gun buff would make it OP.

I agree that a small gun buff wouldn't make it OP, but otoh, it would mean a small, general nerf to the other dds and most dds aren't really that strong to begin with. Z-52 seems decent when supported, crap when unsupported. Giving it a gun buff could make it too effective against other dds which I doubt is good for the overall dd balance. Maybe make it more effective in some other role?

 

Edit: I think a small buff to HE damage probably wouldn't hurt.. It's pretty pitiful to see those Z--52 trying to hurt you when you rush his smoke

[billel_medjdoubi]

On 1/23/2019 at 12:24 PM, _Teob_ said:

Hi everyone!

 

So the short of it is: I think the Z52 needs a bit of love.

 

I may be biased here as the ship was my favorite for a long time and I still think of it fondly but I can't help but notice that due to the abundance of radar and the introduction of much scarier ships, its role has been greatly diminished and its gimmick is borderline useless now.

 

So for those of you who don't own it, the Z52 has very low gun DPM with particularly low HE dmg but higher than average AP dmg. Its torpedoes also do comparatively low damage and the torpedo DPM is somewhat average and you can only launch 8 of them at a time (2X4) although it does get a low reload in return.

But its main gimmick is the long range (6km) hydro. The whole point of the ship was that it was the absolute king of caps for a while.

It could never outright outgun its competition but being able to use the smoke + hydro combination often gave you an edge.

 

Today however due to the multiple radar ships introduced recently (Kronstadt, Stalingrad, the whole USN light cruiser line) and then the Daring which fills a very similar role, the Z52 (or Big Z as I like to call it) has been rendered somewhat obsolete.

I think that it could really use a bit of love. Possibly slightly higher HE damage - I am not 100% sure how it could be improved.

 

Below is t10 DD performance for the past 2 months with the z52 coming in dead last in WR, damage, XP and ships destroyed. Basically if there's a statistic out there, the z52 is the worst at it.

I used Z-52 last season and made it to Rank 1 with a 62% win rate. That said, I'm not using it this season due to an even heavier radar meta than last season. However, if you want to use it, I'll give you a few tips.

When sailing around, keep AP loaded for your first salvo. Against a broadside DD it wrecks, and if you start with HE you might miss out on that broadside shot as they turn away from you. By having AP ready, you are guaranteed to have it ready for when the enemy turns to run. Z-52 AP has amazing damage but poor penetration, but if you learn to use it properly you can usually come out of most engagements better than the enemy DD.

Forget trying to torp anything with radar unless you know they've already used it. Being in torp range of anything that has radar and isn't a Salem means you're likely in their radar range. DDs in ranked are there to cap and provide vision. Lucky torps are nice, but staying alive so your team has spotting is nicer.

In keeping with the theme of tip #2, forget that the legendary module exists. It is not your friend in competitive.

RPF is your friend. Do it. If you aren't a Harugumo or Grozovoi you better have RPF as a DD.

You dang well better also have survivability expert.

Killing the enemy DD is nice. Spotting him and not firing when he does, allowing you to disengage while your team hammers him is nicer. Know when to use that AP that I told you to keep loaded, and when to not. If you're 6km from him and can get unspotted within 20 seconds, don't shoot (unless you know it will kill him and you'll live). If he spots you at 4km and you can't disengage within 20s, start shooting. Remember, you still have smoke and hydro, so if you're out of enemy radar range you can safely use it.

If you're low HP, stay far, far away from anything that could spot you and get you killed. Radar ships, enemy DDs, the like. If you die, your team loses points, the enemy gains them, and you're useless. If you hide, you're still useless, but at least the enemy team doesn't get more points.

Coordinate your hydro with your teammates. On Hotspot and Warrior's Path, you can keep the enemy that hides behind the rock spotted for a long time. Ask a cruiser or another DD to flank around and get side shots on him. If you can take even 1/4 of the enemy DD's HP off in the first few minutes of the game, that's HP you don't have to worry about taking off during a critical moment in the last few minutes of the game.

Don't always try to go for the cap in the match start. On Mountain Range, when the enemy has a ton of radar and a DD to pause the cap on C, it isn't always a good idea to jump in and contest. Letting the enemy DD take the cap means they'll leave it, making it free real estate for you. Sometimes I'll go into the middle of the map out of radar range, smoke up and shoot at the DD when my team radars him. We get some free damage from him and once he's gone that cap is free for me to grab.

Never expect to save your star. The role of a DD is a selfless one (Harugumo doesn't count). If you play to save a star, you aren't doing your job. I know it sucks watching your team suicide or not focus what you spot for them, but if you play to win, the teams that are good will benefit way more from you.

And for the sake of RNGesus don't forget your Det flags!

[_Teob_]

1 hour ago, billel_medjdoubi said:

*snip*

While I appreciate the advice, I actually do OK in the Z52 - it isn't about me.

The point is that the ship overall is lackluster.

[Marducas91]

Z52 is one of my fav ships, only second to the hindy and i totally agree with the OP. For some reason i stopped playing her for a long time and when I came back i found myself feeling quite useless in almost any situation. Gearing is the only dd i do not fear just because of He gives you broadside ù can really hurt him with AP due to the ship thickness but any other dd actually scares me Now...

Shima got buffed and Now can even spot you without entering your hydro range, grozovoi now has heal and with khaba guns it makes short work of you and god bless you if u find yourself against a full stealth (6.2 km detection vs 6.1) harugumo...

Torps are lovely and with that low reload ù can surprise people but with the recent flooding nerf incoming I do not know how strong they can be.

Guns are good tbh but that HE dmg is abyssmal 

What can give this dd some new reasons to be Played could be a slight detection buff, something around 5,9 km like gearing and a bit of better handling with it

HE dmg has never Been the german thing so i'm ok with that, increasing the AP angles/dmg could also be a possibility in my book just to emphasize that treat 

[_Teob_]

The weirdest thing is that you have to be careful against all ships now with the Z52.

 

A shima will happily murder you if it can kite you. And it will kite you since your DPM is nowhere near enough to stop it from turning and kiting away.

 

Also, I find that the Z52 really struggles with planes. It's big and slow so easy to hit, relatively and its AA feels really lackluster.

[GulvkluderGuld]

Will cross post from the gameplay topic about german dds.

It may be that stat wise the Z52 isn't doing so well, and perhaps minor buffs are in order for average joes. 

Personally, I find the Z52 is fine and doesnt need any nerfs (obviously talking random battles, not competitive). Played it a lot untill a few weeks back i finally got my Legendary module.

 

All dds have to adapt to the increasing prevalence of radar ships (with longer range) and CVs and make changes to how they play around caps.

However, the hydro + smoke one-trick is still as strong as it has always been. No dds can hide from Z52 once it gets detected. Press U to spot whatever it is, press T, spam away and most DDs drop to 50% or lower. 

Grozovoi, Khaba and Harugumo sisters? They have to angle or get torped to oblivion. They're slow and turn like a bus. I've been feasting on the tears of many Harugumo players with my '52. 

RN dds? Z52 has a 3 km buffer hydro on the RN dds and the stealth-to-hydro window is 100 m. Basically unless they already point their nose away, the RN ships will get  while disengaging.

In that sense, RN dds are no different compared to all other dds vs '52. You have to bait through all 4 charges of hydro/smoke or catch the bugger with hydro down.

Shima and gearing stealth buffs get neutralized by pressing U.  Slight DPM buff to shima is of little consequence due to pressing T and possessing enough braincells to not be in radar range of anything.

 

Where the Z52 falls short is dealing with cruisers and BBs as torps do fairly anemic damage, as does the HE, so that might be worth looking into if buffs are called for.

Also the legendary module could be modified to compensate for any gun buffs by exchanging them for torpedo (or handling) buffs.

Current legendary module is second only to the YY one in uselessness (the YY mod providing actual free nerfs and hard mode)

 

On 3/12/2019 at 1:05 PM, _Teob_ said:

The weirdest thing is that you have to be careful against all ships now with the Z52.

Not to nitpick, but isn't that supposed to be the case if the game is properly balanced?  (we can see with Kitakaze what it means if you dont have to be)

 

 

[_Teob_]

Well while I am all for dissenting opinions, looking at stats alone does suggest that high tier German DDs need a bit of help. The thing is, I do OK with them, but even I can tell that their potential is vastly lower than most other DDs.

And I do think that their Hydro is much less valuable if there is a lot of radar around.

 

11 hours ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

Not to nitpick, but isn't that supposed to be the case if the game is properly balanced?  (we can see with Kitakaze what it means if you dont have to be)

 

No, I don't think that means the game is properly balanced. That's why I explained what I meant in the rest of my post.

DDs are not the same nor should they be. A Shima for example has a high torpedo damage output. It has almost 3 times the torpedo DPM of the Z52.

This should mean that in a straight up gun fight, unless the Z52 eats a torpedo, it should be able to gun down a Shima. That's not really the case anymore.

 

Another example would be a Khaba vs a Gearing. The Khaba will happily murder a Gearing with its guns, in return, the Gearing has much better torpedo options.

 

This is the main issue here, the Z52 relies on smoke+Hydro to be able to fight anything. And because of the low DPM you need to catch an enemy DD out several times.

And good players will just rush your smoke anyway, eat a torpedo on the nose (at most) and still gun you down.

That's the problem, the DMG just isn't there. This has always been the case but with the introduction of monster DPM ships like the Harugumo and Daring, buffing dmg for the Shima, buffing the Grozo, the Z52 has been somewhat left behind.

 

The z46 is mostly fine imo. It's a good ship for its tier, has the same damage output as the z52 while being more nimbler. The loss of Hydro range isn't that big of a deal.

[GulvkluderGuld]

Curious where you get the stats - and what it looks like for the top 10%? Probably Harugumo and Daring leading the board.

I checked my own, but i dont know where to get recent stats for all players. Z52 is my dd with the highest winrate (61%) and lowest damage (a hair under the Gearing), while frags is 3rd behind YY (pre-nerf) and daring.

 

As to trading strengths and weaknesses, I do think balance in general is getting closer between dds (exempting the 2 new spammer lines). 

Shima guns needed some love, it could't even defend itself. I dont have one and even I could see that. And I dont see why you should be able to chase it down with a Z52 and kill it. That is exactly why I approve of the self-defence buffs for the shima. Where it maybe is wrong atm (i dont have problems with shimas though) is if they shima can win a hp/dpm/alpha trade with a Z52.  

 

Smoke and hydro is still devastating to the older dds (shima, gearing, YY smoke, Grozo, Khaba) and I fail to see why one should sit still in the smoke and wait to get rushed down.

Kiting behind the smoke is usually easy meanwhile keeping the other guy lit up (often even shooting, still unspotted) untill he runs out of hp. 

And that goes for a prepared opponent. If you get caught unaware in Z52 hydro/smoke combo, you are dead. I dont care what you sail, it is a death sentence.

I think a lot of players havn't realized the Z52 dont need caps to bully other dds - its about finding the dds in open water somewhere radar cruisers dont go - but I guess average joe they keep going into caps, pop hydro and get radared -> blap.

 

Dont get me wrong, I wouldnt mind a buff to my Z52 guns as it would allow trades without using smoke/hydro, but then what about the other dds?

YY sits at the same reload as Z52 and has worse guns, you'd almost have to buff that too. 

Gearing sits at 3,4 with legendary module / 3,0 without. Z52 already eats Gearings for breakfast, so probably you'd need to buff the Gearing too along with Z52 since gearing is supposed to be the swiss army  knife. 

 

Better give all tier 9-10 dds a heal and be done with it. 

[_Teob_]

I get my information from Maple Syrup and Wows-numbers

 

Z52 actually does considerably less dmg than the YY as, while they do have the same reload, the YY does 20% more damage per shell (Z52 - 1500 vs YY - 1800). I assume that when you say worse guns, you mean shell ballistics because apart from that the YY guns are much much better.

On that note, I never agreed with the YY gun nerfs. It should have just lost its radar and it would have been OK but that's a different discussion altogether.

 

The Z52 has 135k DPM on its guns (no upgrades or captain skills) while the Shima has 135,450. The Z52 has more health though but overall their gun power is pretty much on par right now.

However, Z52 torpedo DPM is 76k, while Shima torpedo DPM s 138k. I realize that torpedo characteristics are different but that is still a really big difference.

Anyway, I was just comparing with the Shima because I noticed the very similar gun performance which I found strange as the Z52 is supposed to be a hybrid.

 

I also disagree that smoke + hydro is lethal to DDs. I genuinely don't have any issues with that. You lose some health but usually nothing catastrophic.

[GulvkluderGuld]

I used Wows-numbers, but i'm not sure the top 10% stats are current (i think they are all-time stats, so not reliable).

Going by top 25%, 10% and 5% the Z52 performs worst in damage, but winrate and kills/game is significantly better than Shima and Gearing.

 

And yeah, I meant the YY ballistics. Didnt realize alpha was that much better, but i guess it has to be because of ballistics.

Also agree that Shima  shouldn't have the same gun-performance as the Z52. Maybe shima-buffs have gone too far.

So to summarize, going by the stats I do agree a slight buff is probably in order. But the real elephant in the room is the new overpowered IJN/RN lines that need slapping with a nerfbat.

 

Smoke/hydro: Good players like you don't, but you have to know you are facing a Z52.

If meet it bow-in unaware, that usually means losing 10 hp or more (from supporting ships) before you can disengage from the hydro range. In my book, that is lethal (mission kill). 

 

[_Teob_]

Oh I think the Gearing is also in a terrible spot at the moment so I am not surprised that the Z52 . I am almost inclined to make a separate thread about that ship.

 

The Shima is more difficult to assess properly because it is still the most played t10 ship. A lot of people just assume it is the best DD in the world because they don't know any better.

Also for someone who is maybe not brilliant at the game, the 15 torpedo broadside is phenomenal because once every like 4 matches they will just delete a BB and that makes any DD player feel all warm and fuzzy inside, let alone someone who doesn't do very well usually.

 

Anyway, to make it easier, below is the past 2 months data for all t10 DDs on EU. Obviously it is missing that top 10% of playerbase which is a good indicator of potential but we can still draw some conclusions from it.

 

 

So while it does have the third worst WR, it also has the lowest damage by far and the lowest XP (so it's not just an issue of its damage being on DDs only).

I genuinely don't think that a slight buff to the guns would make it crazy all of a sudden. Under 40k average damage at t10 is just sad and no DD should be in that situation.

[Gl0cK_17]

I dont know if the problem is with the ship or with the players on the Z tbh.
I think its problem that people see DDs as either gunboat or torpboat, and for some funny reason most that ive encountered seem convinced that German DDs are supposed to be cap brawling gunboats :S

[_Teob_]

3 hours ago, Gl0cK_17 said:

[...]
I think its problem that people see DDs as either gunboat or torpboat, and for some funny reason most that ive encountered seem convinced that German DDs are supposed to be cap brawling gunboats :S

As opposed to what, Cruise ships like the Love Boat?

There are only gunboats or torpedoboats as far as DDs go.

 

German DDs were never seen as brawling boats because they were never in a position to stand up 1v1 to any other gunboat. The reason why they were seen as capping DDs (especially the z52) is the hydro, which was unique to them at the time. That meant that they didn't have to actually brawl with other ships but rather just drop smoke + hydro which was very difficult to counter without a bigger radar ship on the enemy team.

And they still have the longest range hydro of any DD.

The Z52's 6km hydro is enough to totally cover most caps completely.

 

The problem is that WG then introduced a plethora of radar ships which made the Z52s Hydro redundant and due to its sub-mediocre gun capacity, it cannot brawl either so it's left in this weird limbo where it doesn't quite have a role that isn't fulfilled better by a different DD.

[Oppressor_]

 

Quote

Also for someone who is maybe not brilliant at the game, the 15 torpedo broadside is phenomenal because once every like 4 matches they will just delete a BB and that makes any DD player feel all warm and fuzzy inside, let alone someone who doesn't do very well usually.

Loly you made my day with that comment.

 

By the way it is a brilliant description of the average shima player that does not even try to go for the caps, while the Z-52 (ex king of the cap circle) just supposed to do so.

 

Cap control is now a huge pressure on Z atm. CVs can easily hit the Z, and besides that the meta shifted to ultra radar heavy (radar ship release spam), where your agility, AA and general weapons systems just cannot counter it.

 

On top of that the CV rework changed the meta, and now everybody just blobs up 10km behind the caps, which leaves capping DDs totally without support.

 

It is almost impossible to do your job as a cap control DD lately. It is way easier to sail around the map in your Shima and hunt for lonely BBs for a 15 torp broadside.

I really expect things even go worse for the Z as it is simply not fun to play now, and the ship stats will deteriorate even further.

 

As a very modest buff I would give the Z and Gearing some little healing capacity and a bit higher agility to keep them in game longer.

[Oppressor_]

Just another addendum about comparing a Z and a shima.

 

For example if a Shima decides to go on a world tour sailing around the map to hunt BBs with torp spam, and the CVs goes to hunt this DD, it is a waste of time from both sides. This is quite typical and explains the low win rate of the Shima, partially because of its passive torp boat role. Still somewhat enjoyable for average player who do not care about win rates.

 

The Z can barely do that, and simply has to go for the caps. And to be honest it will be exposed to everything as his team will be sitting 15km back in a single blob. Of course even the average players will fail to do well in the current meta. This would explain the unsuccess of this ship (I mean the bad stats). And hell yes, it is frustrating to play even for unicorns atm.

 

Put it short: Z is forced in a disadvantageous situation due to its cap control role. As the meta shifted it became obslolete.

Possible solution: make it a bit more autonomous with higher survivability (better smoke / bit healing / better agility / better AA) to keep it longer in game.

 

Cheers,

Exo (ex Z-52 captain who is shifting to main skycancers)

[Gl0cK_17]

3 hours ago, _Teob_ said:

As opposed to what, Cruise ships like the Love Boat?

There are only gunboats or torpedoboats as far as DDs go.

 

 

there are also hybrids, smartass. and thanks for proving my point.

 

A role that fits the Zs pretty well, they are not specialists. But they can do everyting pretty good, at higher they wander more towards the torpspam side of the spectrum with that 1 min reload :)

[_Teob_]

2 hours ago, Gl0cK_17 said:

there are also hybrids, smartass. and thanks for proving my point.

 

A role that fits the Zs pretty well, they are not specialists. But they can do everyting pretty good, at higher they wander more towards the torpspam side of the spectrum with that 1 min reload :)

It depends on what you call a hybrid. The Gearing was the original hybrid but that doesn't mean it didn't use its torpedoes.

People generally use the term torpedoboat to designate a ship that doesn't really want to use its guns.

Conversely people use the term gunboat to designate a ship like the Gearing for example that could also do considerable damage with its guns on top of its torpedoes. So all gunboats are hybrids in effect.

The only consummate gunboat now is the khaba and even that had usable torpedoes until recently. And that can barely be called a DD in the first place.

 

And as far as the Z goes, dmg wise no it does nothing well apart from stacking flooding... which it doesn't really do anymore because of the flood nerf.

It's gun power is the same as the shima's (dpm wise) and it's torpedo DPM, even fully specced, is not really impressive.
 

[CPL_Sivi]

I am getting ready to sell it. 46 is just a better ship for me atm. Better handling combined with better camo is just a huge difference in this meta. With 46 i can put a 150k dmg with a several kills and a cap in a loss and feel somewhat satisfied. With 52 i get only frustration. No dmg no kills and no wins.... Repeatedly. 

[Lootboxer]

On 4/4/2019 at 10:02 PM, CPL_Sivi said:

I am getting ready to sell it. 46 is just a better ship for me atm. Better handling combined with better camo is just a huge difference in this meta. With 46 i can put a 150k dmg with a several kills and a cap in a loss and feel somewhat satisfied. With 52 i get only frustration. No dmg no kills and no wins.... Repeatedly. 

This /\

I do not have 52 but from what I see in games I've completely lost desire to get it. I will stay with 46. It just seems out of place in current meta. Fun to play an odd game in cosmic battle but too weak in CV, radar and proper gunboats infested environment. I'd rather play Shima or Gering - power crept too but still strong with as good or better guns, much better torps and concealment. 

[affie]

On 4/4/2019 at 11:02 PM, CPL_Sivi said:

I am getting ready to sell it. 46 is just a better ship for me atm. Better handling combined with better camo is just a huge difference in this meta. With 46 i can put a 150k dmg with a several kills and a cap in a loss and feel somewhat satisfied. With 52 i get only frustration. No dmg no kills and no wins.... Repeatedly. 

I actually kept my Z-46 as a pure torpedo boat since it is so hilarious to be able to send torpedoes almost every 60 seconds, just like in the lower tiers and if played this way the Z-46 is the better boat compared to the Z-52, 2 kts and 500 m difference in torpedo speed and range is not worth the higher tier and 200 m worse concealment the Z-52 gets. The Z-52 on the other hand lives and dies with its hydro acoustic search and high alpha AP shells, as with any DD pushing the caps is a big NO until you are aware of all the radars in the game. But when you finally gets there you need to make use of that 6 km hydro, if detected, activate hydro, smoke up and try to shot AP at broadside of the target, if at angle spam HE. The Z-52 is rewarded when being played as a sneaky hunter, ambush the other destroyer and dictate the way of the battle, don´t rush into situations, let the situation come to you and use your gimmicks (strongly recommend the Hydro acoustic Search Mod. 1 for increased up-time). I learned that last bit the hard way, forgot checking the area with hydro and was rewarded with a Moskva waiting for me around an island, I panicked, beached in from of him and died within 2 salvos...

[CPL_Sivi]

Still i find 52 a downgrade from 46. Extra km on a hydro is not worth losing agility and stealth imo. Guns are something u cant use very often. U cant use em at all if u have harugumo or radar ca anywhere near u. U must stay silent and keep watter full of torps. If u wanna live that is. 52 is built to be ultimate cap bully but u just cant use it in that role. God knows how many times i tried. Ijn gunboats, cvs, radars, uk dds.... 52 is just in a bad spot right now. 

[tsounts]

The majority of Z52s I've seen lately have been the first to die since they rush in the cap in order to hydro enemy dds, get radared and die.  That's not the way to play this ship...

[CPL_Sivi]

4 hours ago, tsounts said:

The majority of Z52s I've seen lately have been the first to die since they rush in the cap in order to hydro enemy dds, get radared and die.  That's not the way to play this ship...

I agree but the ship is designed to do exactly that. Go in cap, hydro enemy and get it sunk or chase it out, take the cap and move to the next one. Otherwise u must rely on someone else to do that for you. Sitting back out of radar range until radars die usually takes long time, reds will take cap control and stack points while u have no impact at the game. U move inside cap u die. So i admit i realy dont know how to play damned thing. With 46 i take risks in the cap, i can survive with taking the cursed circle. In most cases with enemy dd sunk. Even under radar and focus fire i can wiggle out and live. But not with 52. Just not possible. With 46 i dont even worry about cvs too much since they need like 10 mins to grind me down. And i take planes down in the process. Why just not take 46 put 6km hydro and rearrange guns in a-b-x config and slap 52 markings on it. That would be a true upgrade. This way tier 9 ship behaves way better than tier 10 of the same line. And that shouldnt be the case. 

[tsounts]

25 minutes ago, CPL_Sivi said:

I agree but the ship is designed to do exactly that. Go in cap, hydro enemy and get it sunk or chase it out, take the cap and move to the next one. Otherwise u must rely on someone else to do that for you. Sitting back out of radar range until radars die usually takes long time, reds will take cap control and stack points while u have no impact at the game. U move inside cap u die. So i admit i realy dont know how to play damned thing. With 46 i take risks in the cap, i can survive with taking the cursed circle. In most cases with enemy dd sunk. Even under radar and focus fire i can wiggle out and live. But not with 52. Just not possible. With 46 i dont even worry about cvs too much since they need like 10 mins to grind me down. And i take planes down in the process. Why just not take 46 put 6km hydro and rearrange guns in a-b-x config and slap 52 markings on it. That would be a true upgrade. This way tier 9 ship behaves way better than tier 10 of the same line. And that shouldnt be the case. 

Suit yourself then.  If you're expecting to get in a cap and wreck everything in your dd right in the beginning of the match just because you have hydro feel free to do so, but not on my teams...

[CPL_Sivi]

3 minutes ago, tsounts said:

Suit yourself then.  If you're expecting to get in a cap and wreck everything in your dd right in the beginning of the match just because you have hydro feel free to do so, but not on my teams...

Of course i dont expect that. I expect to do only what i can do with z46 and do it a bit better. I guess its only logical. I cant wreck everything with 46 either but i stand a good chance winning my cap and defeating contesting dd. Thats good enough for me. Btw u wont see me in a 52 on any team for sure. U might see me in a 46 tho.