Were secondaries nerfed during the last 1.5 years? Can't make Bismark work anymore

[Alezul]

I came back to the game after one and a half years i think. I remember loving my bismark's secondaries. Even the tier 7 one before it with the hard name to type. 

 

It absolutely could be me being bad at the game now or just lots of bad luck but it just seems like secondaries are almost useless. I never wanted to be competitive but at least i could have some fun with it. Not so anymore. More and more i'm pushed back outside secondary range because i die way too fast.

 

An alternative to a possible secondary nerf could be the horrible mm i've been getting. Seems like 1 in 20 games i see a -2 tier enemy while i even had 4 games in a row against +2 tier. 

 

Before you mention it, i know, i'm terrible at the game and just wanted some silly action with my auto aiming guns. Can't blame the devs if they toned it down.

[philjd]

For most serious secondary builds you now need IFHE as a captain skill it seems (I suck totally in Bismarck so perhaps not a good commentator). But yeah... spammed to death if you do, 'barn dooring' if you don't (for me).

[ColonelPete]

• You were inactive for a long time and need to work at your timing
• as you noted the problem is not the guns, but getting close to the enemy
• enemies overextending get usually focussed harder now than back then

[Aragathor]

16 minutes ago, Alezul said:

I came back to the game after one and a half years i think. I remember loving my bismark's secondaries. Even the tier 7 one before it with the hard name to type. 

 

It absolutely could be me being bad at the game now or just lots of bad luck but it just seems like secondaries are almost useless. I never wanted to be competitive but at least i could have some fun with it. Not so anymore. More and more i'm pushed back outside secondary range because i die way too fast.

 

An alternative to a possible secondary nerf could be the horrible mm i've been getting. Seems like 1 in 20 games i see a -2 tier enemy while i even had 4 games in a row against +2 tier. 

 

Before you mention it, i know, i'm terrible at the game and just wanted some silly action with my auto aiming guns. Can't blame the devs if they toned it down.

Over time German BBs have been passed by the meta and WG has not done anything, the ships kept the drawbacks and lost their strengths. The introduction of the Massachusetts didn't help, as it immediately overshadowed Tirpitz and Bismarck. Recently WG acknowledged that secondaries are in a bad spot, but we haven't seen anything on the horizon that would herald changes.

You should consider not playing high tier German secondary focused ships like the Bismarck.

[Andy_the_Cupid_Stunt]

2 minutes ago, Aragathor said:

Over time German BBs have been passed by the meta and WG has not done anything, the ships kept the drawbacks and lost their strengths. The introduction of the Massachusetts didn't help, as it immediately overshadowed Tirpitz and Bismarck. Recently WG acknowledged that secondaries are in a bad spot, but we haven't seen anything on the horizon that would herald changes.

You should consider not playing high tier German secondary focused ships like the Bismarck.

 

Additionally, the T8 MM has become much worse over the last 18 months. You're far more likely to be in a T10 battle than you were back when you took your break. T8 secondary build is not viable in T10 games, you'd be far better going for a tanky build.

[creamgravy]

Yep Bismark secondaries were nerfed a while back. The 105mm guns used to have a bugged fire chance, you could burn ships the ground very quickly, now they're back to a normal 5%.

 

So the 105mm guns can't physically damage anything and don't set many fires. The Bismark secondary build almost worthless for PvP.

[Fat_Maniac]

23 minutes ago, Alezul said:

I came back to the game after one and a half years i think. I remember loving my bismark's secondaries. Even the tier 7 one before it with the hard name to type. 

 

It absolutely could be me being bad at the game now or just lots of bad luck but it just seems like secondaries are almost useless. I never wanted to be competitive but at least i could have some fun with it. Not so anymore. More and more i'm pushed back outside secondary range because i die way too fast.

 

An alternative to a possible secondary nerf could be the horrible mm i've been getting. Seems like 1 in 20 games i see a -2 tier enemy while i even had 4 games in a row against +2 tier. 

 

Before you mention it, i know, i'm terrible at the game and just wanted some silly action with my auto aiming guns. Can't blame the devs if they toned it down.

Bismark sucks if you are in a T10 game, it's really hard to get yourself close enough to brawl without being spotted, and in a T10 game it's hard to provide fire support from range with your dispersion.

And I think she is suffering a bit from power creep.

[Aragathor]

1 minute ago, creamgravy said:

Yep Bismark secondaries were nerfed a while back. The 105mm guns used to have a bugged fire chance, you could burn ships the ground very quickly. now they're back to a normal 5%.

 

So the 105mm guns can't physically damage anything and don't set many fires. The secondary build almost worthless for PvP.

 

 

And it also didn't get the pen change larger German secondary guns received. So it uses 1/6 pen instead of 1/4 pen the 128mm and 150mm get.

[Kenliero]

In short... If you want to play with effective secondaries, choose T9 or T10 with IFHE. They can pen that magical 32mm and do a lot of damage

[MrWastee]

last 2 matches (sec build with fp, no concealment), oh how useless .... ^adores being lowtier. in short: nothing wrong or deceicively(?) altered in my experience.

Bismarck

VIII

2

50% Average

3 726 Super Unicum

117 102

2.5

0.5

[ColonelPete]

5 minutes ago, creamgravy said:

Yep Bismark secondaries were nerfed a while back. The 105mm guns used to have a bugged fire chance, you could burn ships the ground very quickly. now they're back to a normal 5%.

 

So the 105mm guns can't physically damage anything and don't set many fires. The secondary build almost worthless for PvP.

 

 

That was exactly one and a half years ago.

[Alezul]

4 minutes ago, creamgravy said:

Yep Bismark secondaries were nerfed a while back. The 105mm guns used to have a bugged fire chance, you could burn ships the ground very quickly, now they're back to a normal 5%.

 

So the 105mm guns can't physically damage anything and don't set many fires. The Bismark secondary build almost worthless for PvP.

Ohh that explains the fun i had with it.

 

The it's terrible news. From what i've noticed lately, even with the fire chance skill, i'm nowhere near 5% chance. It's at best 2 fires for every 100 hits(maybe even 1.5%).

 

I guess i just enjoyed a bugged ship so i can't be mad at WG for fixing it. It was very low skill anyway.

 

7 minutes ago, Andy_the_Cupid_Stunt said:

 

Additionally, the T8 MM has become much worse over the last 18 months. You're far more likely to be in a T10 battle than you were back when you took your break. T8 secondary build is not viable in T10 games, you'd be far better going for a tanky build.

So the same garbage that happened in world of tanks then. Tier 8 went from being the most  fun and balanced to being an exp pinnata for tier 10.

 

This sucks, i was really hoping i could get back in the game but i see no reason to. I loved that bismark more than any other ship by far.

 

Thanks for the quick and useful replies everyone!

[creamgravy]

8 minutes ago, Aragathor said:

And it also didn't get the pen change larger German secondary guns received. So it uses 1/6 pen instead of 1/4 pen the 128mm and 150mm get.

 

Even the 150mm aren't that good. You only have 6 per side, need to show a lot of broadside to fire them and they only do 1700 damage.

Bismark secondary build is now a myth. WG really need to buff Gneis/Tirp/Bis main gun accuracy.

[Redcap375]

It's no longer the meta and hasn't been for a while. 

 

Kurf and Massa (IFHE) IMHO, is the only one's really worth Specing Secondaries in. 

 

Even then you will get HE spammed to death very quickly.  Too many flame throwers now.  Never uses to be like that.

[Alezul]

10 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

That was exactly one and a half years ago.

Hah can't remember why i stopped but seems likely that was the reason in the first place.

 

10 minutes ago, MrWastee said:

last 2 matches (sec build with fp, no concealment), oh how useless .... ^adores being lowtier. in short: nothing wrong or deceicively(?) altered in my experience.

Bismarck

VIII

2

50% Average

3 726 Super Unicum

117 102

2.5

0.5

Well that's nice and all but what if you're not that good at the game? Being bottom tier all the time in my bismark means i might at best get 30 secondary hits, do barely or no damage, lose one quarter of my health for it. I could snipe and do much better damage with my main guns but then...why play this BB instead of a better main gun BB?

[Kenliero]

14 minutes ago, Redcap375 said:

It's no longer the meta and hasn't been for a while. 

 

Kurf and Massa (IFHE) IMHO, is the only one's really worth Specing Secondaries in. 

 

Even then you will get HE spammed to death very quickly.  Too many flame throwers now.  Never uses to be like that.

Grosse is very good now with new pen since last patch. It is much better than Massa with secondary build, but not quite Kurfurst level. Pretty nice in just between those 2, fitting perfectly in T9.

[MrWastee]

22 minutes ago, Alezul said:

Hah can't remember why i stopped but seems likely that was the reason in the first place.

 

Well that's nice and all but what if you're not that good at the game? Being bottom tier all the time in my bismark means i might at best get 30 secondary hits, do barely or no damage, lose one quarter of my health for it. I could snipe and do much better damage with my main guns but then...why play this BB instead of a better main gun BB?

 

eeerm... why u are so focussed on sce hits?! if its about that rather play coop, really.... the secs are a tool, one of some the biZ got. turtleback, hydro and guns that force u to rather go close are others.

if one yoloes each match just to knock some sec-hits off, well. play the match on the ship u are on, not the match u'd liked to have on a ship that doesnt really exist.

 

in other words: on hightier matches as a sec-ship rather NOT go in on start, coz that 4 sure gonna get u focussed. taking a turn and flanking in from about midmatch (or outta cover), goin for vulnerable, light armored targets. still bismark is a superb dd hunter... at least as long they dont run !

 

it always depends on the match, it doesnt care about ur preferences for sechits or dmg.

 

edit: i do play and love it coz it perfectly fits my style. it's a tank and a puncher, it wants to get shot on. and it wants to prevail, while providing the tools to do so, no matter the battletier..... i m o

[Alezul]

4 minutes ago, MrWastee said:

eeerm... why u are so focussed on sce hits?! if its about that rather play coop, really.... the secs are a tool,

Because it was so fun.I found out now it was because of a bug that they seemed so good. I also liked how "real" the ship felt because unlike something like world of tanks, i didn't control everything. It felt more like a real ship when guns fired independent on my actions. I know, it's silly.

 

I got tired of the normal BB gameplay(and the game itself i guess) and never managed to get good enough with the main guns to do any reliable damage(no idea when i'll citadel, bounce, miss or over pen). Co-op on the other hand is just...brain dead easy, it feels insulting.

 

So basically i'm crying over losing an easy to play derpy ship. Just came here to make sure it truly is as mediocre or bad as it seems during gameplay nowadays.

[asalonen]

49 minutes ago, Andy_the_Cupid_Stunt said:

Additionally, the T8 MM has become much worse over the last 18 months.

 

Well, that was just fixed in 0.7.11. It's no longer harsh like it used to be, since tier 8's are no longer up-tiered most of the time. As far match making goes, tier 8 is now good.

 

It's all about the changed meta and the increased distances. Radar and HE spam keep the teams apart, and good brawls are quite rare. They're more common in mid-tiers. 

[MrWastee]

3 minutes ago, Alezul said:

Because it was so fun.I found out now it was because of a bug that they seemed so good. I also liked how "real" the ship felt because unlike something like world of tanks, i didn't control everything. It felt more like a real ship when guns fired independent on my actions. I know, it's silly.

 

I got tired of the normal BB gameplay(and the game itself i guess) and never managed to get good enough with the main guns to do any reliable damage(no idea when i'll citadel, bounce, miss or over pen). Co-op on the other hand is just...brain dead easy, it feels insulting.

 

So basically i'm crying over losing an easy to play derpy ship. Just came here to make sure it truly is as mediocre or bad as it seems during gameplay nowadays.

really can't help u then, as we not seem to speak the same language. in my language the bismarck still is one of the few of the awesomeness ;D.... hope u'll find a substitute, but plz in that case rather a lowtier that teaches to use mb's (?! <half arsed joke ^^).

coz in randoms i fear u might burden ur team if u go into t8+ matches, just to let ur secondaries play 4 u...

[asalonen]

I hope this doesn't sound like being an old, grumpy fart, but I miss the Good Old Days when the Bismarck was introduced in the game. 

 

I believe I was still in a Fuso, working my way up. Tried to get somewhat close to a cap, to support our DD's, with two red Bismarcks standing guard on the other side. Coming within 10 km they opened up with the secondaries, and the rain of steel was *ucking imposing and scary. 

[Redcap375]

32 minutes ago, Kenliero said:

Grosse is very good now with new pen since last patch. It is much better than Massa with secondary build, but not quite Kurfurst level. Pretty nice in just between those 2, fitting perfectly in T9.

 

Good point, forgot about the last patch. 

 

[Alezul]

13 minutes ago, asalonen said:

Well, that was just fixed in 0.7.11. It's no longer harsh like it used to be, since tier 8's are no longer up-tiered most of the time. As far match making goes, tier 8 is now good.

NOW they are no longer up tiered most of the time?? I swear my bismark feels like a tier 9 ship. Thank god i didn't come back to play during the time it was even worse. I wouldn't mind meeting tier 10 if i could meet tier 6 in equal amounts but that's nowhere near the same. 

 

6 minutes ago, asalonen said:

and the rain of steel was *ucking imposing and scary.

Yeah, it was stupid easy, it was unbalanced, it was annoying to the enemy player but...sure was fun sailing one of them.

 

15 minutes ago, MrWastee said:

i fear u might burden ur team if u go into t8+ matches, just to let ur secondaries play 4 u

Yup, i stopped playing, don't worry about it. Although to be fair, even at the peak of secondary madness, my main guns still did more damage.

[__Helmut_Kohl__]

1 hour ago, creamgravy said:

Yep Bismark secondaries were nerfed a while back. The 105mm guns used to have a bugged fire chance, you could burn ships the ground very quickly, now they're back to a normal 5%.

 

So the 105mm guns can't physically damage anything and don't set many fires. The Bismark secondary build almost worthless for PvP.

 

At the same time the range was buffed though. 

 

1 hour ago, Aragathor said:

And it also didn't get the pen change larger German secondary guns received. So it uses 1/6 pen instead of 1/4 pen the 128mm and 150mm get.

 

The 105mm never had the 1/4 pen, so nothing changed. 

[Panocek]

For viable secondary funsies I'm afraid you're limited to Operations* now, as even most of the time in Randoms you spend your time outside of their range unless you yolo your way through.

 

*Scharnhorst, Gneisenau to be specific. Richelieu for Hermes could count, but she has too few guns and they are simply ineffective if you want them to do more than random fire.