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HappyFella

Help Me Decide! - Bismarck or Amagi

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31 minutes ago, AdmiralDing3Ling said:

 

Off topic but Amagi together with its sister Kaga were planned as battlecruisers but cancelled because of the washington naval treaty. The hulls were built, Kagas hull was converted into an aircraftcarrier and Amagis hull was too badly damaged in an earthquake so it was scrapped.

Later there was another aircraft carrier built and called Amagi but it had no relation to the first.

IJN_carrier_Amagi_capsized_off_Kure_in_1946.thumb.jpg.b848ef7fd0cea1309091cbfd845ea525.jpg

 

IJN carrier Amagi capsized off Kure 1946 ( 2:nd Amagi )

Never operational or outfitted with aircraft

 

LoL how the hell could they lose a carrier to an earthquake, did it fall over on the slipway

 

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1 hour ago, Seiranko said:

How does HE resistance work both ways? It's not HE immunity, but at some point your superstructure runs out of hp. Also, if they only shoot your superstructure you basically only burn in 1-2 places. Compare to Amagi where I can basically hit anywhere on the deck and deal damage and set 3-4 fires without aiming at sections where I don't do damage. It's a straight up advantage.

 

Similarly, no, it's silly to argue "you get as much damage as if you had gotten citadelled". Yes, if I empty a broadside of a Colorado into a Bismarck point blank so 8 out of 8 pen, I might reduce the Bismarck by half its hp. Up to almost 33k damage might be chunked out (subject to damage saturation, 50% repairable) that way, which is like 3 citadels. But if I do that against a NC, I likely will get 3 actual citadels (not subject to damage saturation, 10% repairable) if not more and the rest will still be full pens, at which point it may very well happen that the NC just explodes.

 

It's like people are crying about how Bismarck doesn't have the best T8 survivability just because it's not Magnu-S forcefield and you still can eat some damage and die.

Works both ways in that I don't really think any T8 BB is much better or worse survivability. Playing well goes far further than a BBs stats I think.

 

Maybe I'm looking at this from the wrong perspective...

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[WAFU]
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Get Bismark and put your Tirpitz Captain in her, don't need retraining. then get Amagi with the credits earn't from Bismark.

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26 minutes ago, Negativvv said:

Works both ways in that I don't really think any T8 BB is much better or worse survivability. Playing well goes far further than a BBs stats I think.

 

Maybe I'm looking at this from the wrong perspective...

The differences in survivability frankly aren't much more pronounced than differences in armament, because while the less armoured ships sure can do basic tanking too, Bismarck's main armament is more than capable of sinking ships, by that same logic. Bismarck is perfectly capable of crippling and destroying cruisers and it can hurt BBs.

 

It's only when you start arguing about the more minute differences like overmatch, accuracy and barrel that some others look a lot more appealing, notably IJN and USN (French, Italians and RN are on a similar level main battery-wise). But that's also where the difference lies between something like Amagi that basically only has close-range protective turtleback, basic 32 mm plating of T8+ and some torpedo bulges to hold off HE that hits the sides vs a ship that has more hp, can potentially bounce Yamato shells, has turtleback pretty much effective at most ranges and is only pennable by HE in select few places that can run out of hp in reasonable time.

 

It's been my opinion for a long time that Bismarck is the last allround decent BB in the KM tree and its a pretty competitive ship, however one has to know how to make that survivability advantage count. Bismarck gets away with things that Amagi and NC don't. For crappy players, that means they get less punished for crappy play while still throwing hp away, but for good players, it means knowing when and where to purposefully use that tankiness for a benefit. Knowing which positions a Bismarck can take that other BBs would not want to take, pushing where others would be hard-pressed to push.

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[UTW]
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GK will never be the meta unless the game truly devolve to mindless rushes.

 

While Yamato is a very solid pick for CB, together with Montana, Conkek and République. GK is the third wheel, not worth picking and doing your mates a disservice in CB.

 

For tier 9, Izumo is shaping to be the strongest tier 9 BB. With the buff of sigma to come (1.8 ==> 2.0) and the CV rework that will mostly buff IJN AA, you'll get a complete package of :

- Very decent concealment

- Troll armor against AP

- Very well protected citadel

- One of the best ballistic you could have on a BB, the shells travel even faster than République's guns.

- 57mm deck which makes it very well protected against HE spam and AP overmatches.

- Good accuracy.

- Third best AP penetration in game at all range, behind Yamato and République.

 

Its biggest downside is that it's still a slower ship than most BB and the torpedo protection is bad. That's not much considering everything else.

 

While FdG is more of a Meme at this point.

 

And finally, for tier 8, I wouldn't be as negative as other since Bismarck is still a decent ship, but Amagi and NC are definitely still the top pick of the tier 8 battleships.

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1 hour ago, Ronchabale said:

LoL how the hell could they lose a carrier to an earthquake, did it fall over on the slipway

Pretty much, yeah.

It was in dry-dock after the Washington Naval Treaty to be converted to a carrier.

And was still there when the earthquake happened (8.2 on richter, or so it is believed).

Yokosuka_Naval_Arsenal_after_Great_Kanto

Yokosuka Dockyard after the earthquake.

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51 minutes ago, Seiranko said:

The differences in survivability frankly aren't much more pronounced than differences in armament, because while the less armoured ships sure can do basic tanking too, Bismarck's main armament is more than capable of sinking ships, by that same logic. Bismarck is perfectly capable of crippling and destroying cruisers and it can hurt BBs.

 

It's only when you start arguing about the more minute differences like overmatch, accuracy and barrel that some others look a lot more appealing, notably IJN and USN (French, Italians and RN are on a similar level main battery-wise). But that's also where the difference lies between something like Amagi that basically only has close-range protective turtleback, basic 32 mm plating of T8+ and some torpedo bulges to hold off HE that hits the sides vs a ship that has more hp, can potentially bounce Yamato shells, has turtleback pretty much effective at most ranges and is only pennable by HE in select few places that can run out of hp in reasonable time.

 

It's been my opinion for a long time that Bismarck is the last allround decent BB in the KM tree and its a pretty competitive ship, however one has to know how to make that survivability advantage count. Bismarck gets away with things that Amagi and NC don't. For crappy players, that means they get less punished for crappy play while still throwing hp away, but for good players, it means knowing when and where to purposefully use that tankiness for a benefit. Knowing which positions a Bismarck can take that other BBs would not want to take, pushing where others would be hard-pressed to push.

Amagi vs Bismarck could go on all day... The Bismarck's 4x2 turret lay out can hamper the user as whilst the armour is better, you have to give up more to be able to bring your already weaker guns to bare. Granted the Amagi also only had 2x4 front facing whereas an NC has 3x2 guns. I'm sure the firing angles of an Amagi is tighter too so you can fire all 10 guns in a better protected angle than a Bismarck can fire it's 8 guns.

 

I've played all the tech tree BBs extensively but I'll openly admit to being Amagi bias. I'll take one of the heaviest salvos in game over a bit more armour and questionable secondary utility.

 

Bismarck has been power creeped by the Massachusetts now arguably as the USN ship has even better secondaries and can fire said secondaries almost bow in along with a stronger frontal firepower.  Don't forget Massa has a fast heal too as icing on top.

 

Bismarck "is" the Bismarck though which I totally get.

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1 minute ago, Negativvv said:

Amagi vs Bismarck could go on all day... The Bismarck's 4x2 turret lay out can hamper the user as whilst the armour is better, you have to give up more to be able to bring your already weaker guns to bare. Granted the Amagi also only had 2x4 front facing whereas an NC has 3x2 guns. I'm sure the firing angles of an Amagi is tighter too so you can fire all 10 guns in a better protected angle than a Bismarck can fire it's 8 guns.

 

I've played all the tech tree BBs extensively but I'll openly admit to being Amagi bias. I'll take one of the heaviest salvos in game over a bit more armour and questionable secondary utility.

 

Bismarck has been power creeped by the Massachusetts now arguably as the USN ship has even better secondaries and can fire said secondaries almost bow in along with a stronger frontal firepower.  Don't forget Massa has a fast heal too as icing on top.

 

Bismarck "is" the Bismarck though which I totally get.

A good few valid points, but frankly, I don't actually buy into "Massachusetts powercreeped Bismarck". If you want a battleship that can just move in and give the least amount of f***'s about what is thrown at it, Bismarck is still the best BB and Massachusetts with 32 mm everywhere, citadel deck that gets overmatched and no hydro is not going to contest that. In pure BB vs BB fights, yes, Bismarck isn't the strongest. But it's also not garbage to the point where it can't do anything. It's passable. But for cruisers that aren't the miserable Hipper/Eugen at T8, I pick a fight with a Massachusetts with no reinforced plating and slow derp shells over the Bismarck which certainly will be a protracted affair and it leaves far less room for me to dodge. Sure, if I hang out within 11.3 km, Massachusetts hurts me more, but then I deserve it. Similarly, Amagi's broadside is no joke, but as a cruiser, Amagi is just easier to kill. Bismarck is a case where it gets frustrating.

 

Not saying Amagi is bad, but I think people are just too quick to dismiss a large part of what makes Bismarck good. It's not necessarily just BB killing, though if you want that, get a Tirpitz. 

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19 minutes ago, Seiranko said:

A good few valid points, but frankly, I don't actually buy into "Massachusetts powercreeped Bismarck". If you want a battleship that can just move in and give the least amount of f***'s about what is thrown at it, Bismarck is still the best BB and Massachusetts with 32 mm everywhere, citadel deck that gets overmatched and no hydro is not going to contest that. In pure BB vs BB fights, yes, Bismarck isn't the strongest. But it's also not garbage to the point where it can't do anything. It's passable. But for cruisers that aren't the miserable Hipper/Eugen at T8, I pick a fight with a Massachusetts with no reinforced plating and slow derp shells over the Bismarck which certainly will be a protracted affair and it leaves far less room for me to dodge. Sure, if I hang out within 11.3 km, Massachusetts hurts me more, but then I deserve it. Similarly, Amagi's broadside is no joke, but as a cruiser, Amagi is just easier to kill. Bismarck is a case where it gets frustrating.

 

Not saying Amagi is bad, but I think people are just too quick to dismiss a large part of what makes Bismarck good. It's not necessarily just BB killing, though if you want that, get a Tirpitz. 

 

Well. Amagi / Bismarck need to be played very different so i feel the discussion about who is better is a little ... futile? Bismarck needs to be aggressive. Amagi is accurate even on long range. Although Bismarck has Hydro, it takes huge damage in the large superstructure in return. So it comes down to the player and how he uses the tools he has been given. Thats why its almost impossible to answer the question of OP?

 

Me, personally, I think the Amagi is stronger in the current Meta. I can explain. T8 sees T10 a lot. So you meet a lot of ships with high RoF and high fire chance. On top of that, high tier games are pretty campy. And then we are at a DD-high right now, since BB AP got nerfed. You see a lot of DDs successfully rushing BBs. Bis´ secondaries might help, but you´d need to skill for them and then you give up survivability-build (see above problem with HE-spam). Amagis more carefull approach, the accurate guns with bigger caliber are advantages here. In a T6 game tho I think I´d prefer Bismarck.

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Most players are now wise to ships like Tirps and Bismark. They only excel when getting close range to you and most know to keep them at distance so they can't use the good secondary to good effect, or secondary and torps in the Tirps case. I find ships like them two pretty easy to deal with in my Nelson, both seem to burn really easy while keeping them at distance, and neither has the great firepower with main guns (unlike with the Matty or Amagi) to pose much of a threat back really.

 

You only have to look at a Tirps or Bismark and it catches fire. The Amagi, well that ship is lethal to face with it's guns - but it's pretty damn weak to AP shot on its broadside. Still, I would rather avoid facing a Matty or Amagi in my Nelson, than face a Tirps or Bismark any day. They both have a far better main battery to come back at you with, even if you try and keep distance as an advantage.

 

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On 1/20/2019 at 10:48 PM, Marble_Eyes said:

...but the german BBs can push in with hydro and turtleback and change the tide of the game if it works out. 

The Amagi also has a turtleback doesnt she? :)

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[SHAD]
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Knowing when to push in a battleship takes time but it can change the course of a battle.

 

Just a great game in a Kurfurst where I did 84,000 in secondary damage alone. 

Getting close without being focussed is the challenge.(15.9km detect)

 

A Bismarck is a great brawler and If a tier 10 battleship wants to brawl with you you’ll have a great time.

 

If you want to fire from 15km as most battleships do the Amagi is a better choice.

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[JRM]
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Well if you have tirp take amagi and grind yamato tirp is essentially a bit with torps so you dont need biz unless its for collector reasons and you can always get it later

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Weekend Tester
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I would say Amagi as she has not as much trouble when send against T10 the Bis will have due to:

 

1: Her guns beign larger and able to overmatch cruisers bows

2: she is far more accurate in the Long range meta

3: she has more guns

4: and lastly better gun angles and not having an "no overpen" armor

 

Edit: there is also that she leads to an worthy Ship for her tree and not an abomination

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7 hours ago, nambr9 said:

The Amagi also has a turtleback doesnt she? :)

Yes she does, though it loses more effectiveness with range. Still makes it one of the harder to citadel T8 BBs.

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