Khaba, a relic of the past?

[JimmyThePirate]

I've recently finished the grind through the tashkent <- great ship

 

but I was... worried... about "upgrading" to the Khabarovsk. On paper it gets one more turret compared to the tash (and a little hp and speed for going up in tier), but otherwise looked to be a huge downgrade. Not wanting to judge a book by its cover, I decided to take the plunge and get it... bad idea.

 

This ship just feels so gimped when compared to others. It feels kind of clumsy and I don't feel like I can:

contest caps

outfight other dds unless I'm 10+KM away

BB fights are just tossups until RNG favors their dispersion and I get nailed for 10K+ damage

I eat huge AP pens from BB

I eat huge HE volleys from half cruisers I meet

Turning to dodge usually does nothing, I can't play with my torps or sneak up on anything.

 

The only ships I feel like I can take are some cruisers, and even then its iffy.

 

This brings up my first question, is the Khabarovsk a relic of the past and has the newer additions to the game rendered it a second class ship that's destined to collect rust? or does it still have some uses?

 

To break down my thoughts:

1. A long time ago, the Khabarovsk was the go to rapid fire HE spammer. Now, however, you have Worcester, daring, and haragumo all of which put the khaba's HE spam to shame.

2. The Khaba had the reputation of being more tanky than other dds thanks to its 50MM armor and heal... but now the grozovoi gets a heal AND smoke, Daring gets a better heal AND smoke, and Hara may not get  heal, but it does get a larger health pool to compensate.

3. Hindys (and somewhat Henri IVs with IFHE) can pen your 50MM like there was nothing there, as can all the new "BC"s (kron, alaska, etc.) and all BBs. Hindys and Krons are both very popular ships and can easily hit you at range, basically making your armor useless against them.

4. Except for the Haragumo, I've noticed all other dds are exceptionally tankier against AP. That stuff just sticks like glue to the 50MM plating on the khaba.

5. Other newer gunboat DDs have usable torps, khaba doesn't.

6. Heck, with the Le Terrible in the game the Khaba has even lost its title of fastest DD

 

The only time I've been able to make it kind of work is staying at max range, and even that doesn't work well. It is way to easy for a 12 gun BB salvo to hit you even when you stay at your max range. Besides, staying at 13KM from your closest target all game long isn't very flexible or helpful to your team, and, unfortunately, not something you can really do in this current day and age.

 

 

Not to count out the possibility that I may just be playing him wrong, I ask my other questions.

1. If you have a Khaba, what captain skills do you use? Do you find CE a requirement, or do you find better success focusing on other gunboat skills?

2. Do you ever get closer than 13KM to the enemy?

[LemonadeWarriorITA]

What captain skills are you using?

The objective is to not get hit, while being an annoying ... to the enemy team by burning stuff down, or following a friendly DD into a cap to help him get rid of the enemy DD.

[Linkaex]

You don't use CE because you will be shooting most of the time which makes you visible anyway. 

 

It is a good and fun ship but your impact on the game is minimal. 

[JimmyThePirate]

11 minutes ago, LemonadeWarrior said:

What captain skills are you using?

The objective is to not get hit, while being an annoying ... to the enemy team by burning stuff down, or following a friendly DD into a cap to help him get rid of the enemy DD.

Currently I am using:

PT and PM

AR and LS

SE and DE

AFT

 

I'm about 80k from a 19 point commander and will have 3 free points to use. Was thinking either BFT or superintendent.

 

I realize the point is not to get hit, but from playing it I've found that even with double rudder shift, many t10 ships are still to accurate to dodge at 13.5ish KM that I engage at. Would it be better to just not turn and keep going straight?

[JimmyThePirate]

14 minutes ago, Linkaex said:

You don't use CE because you will be shooting most of the time which makes you visible anyway. 

 

It is a good and fun ship but your impact on the game is minimal. 

There are a lot of good and fun ships at t10. Is there a particular reason to pick Khaba over those? or has Khaba kinda fallen to the wayside?

[Linkaex]

1 minute ago, JimmyThePirate said:

There are a lot of good and fun ships at t10. Is there a particular reason to pick Khaba over those? or has Khaba kinda fallen to the wayside?

Yeah, if you don't feel like to cary teams and want to annoy the hell out of the enemy team. Support your other DD's with fire power. See the potential damage stack up. That is millions of damage that is not going to your potato broadsiding teammates. 

 

[eliastion]

28 minutes ago, JimmyThePirate said:

I've recently finished the grind through the tashkent <- great ship

 

but I was... worried... about "upgrading" to the Khabarovsk. On paper it gets one more turret compared to the tash (and a little hp and speed for going up in tier), but otherwise looked to be a huge downgrade. Not wanting to judge a book by its cover, I decided to take the plunge and get it... bad idea.

 

This ship just feels so gimped when compared to others. It feels kind of clumsy and I don't feel like I can:

contest caps

outfight other dds unless I'm 10+KM away

BB fights are just tossups until RNG favors their dispersion and I get nailed for 10K+ damage

I eat huge AP pens from BB

I eat huge HE volleys from half cruisers I meet

Turning to dodge usually does nothing, I can't play with my torps or sneak up on anything.

 

The only ships I feel like I can take are some cruisers, and even then its iffy.

 

This brings up my first question, is the Khabarovsk a relic of the past and has the newer additions to the game rendered it a second class ship that's destined to collect rust? or does it still have some uses?

 

To break down my thoughts:

1. A long time ago, the Khabarovsk was the go to rapid fire HE spammer. Now, however, you have Worcester, daring, and haragumo all of which put the khaba's HE spam to shame.

2. The Khaba had the reputation of being more tanky than other dds thanks to its 50MM armor and heal... but now the grozovoi gets a heal AND smoke, Daring gets a better heal AND smoke, and Hara may not get  heal, but it does get a larger health pool to compensate.

3. Hindys (and somewhat Henri IVs with IFHE) can pen your 50MM like there was nothing there, as can all the new "BC"s (kron, alaska, etc.) and all BBs. Hindys and Krons are both very popular ships and can easily hit you at range, basically making your armor useless against them.

4. Except for the Haragumo, I've noticed all other dds are exceptionally tankier against AP. That stuff just sticks like glue to the 50MM plating on the khaba.

5. Other newer gunboat DDs have usable torps, khaba doesn't.

6. Heck, with the Le Terrible in the game the Khaba has even lost its title of fastest DD

 

The only time I've been able to make it kind of work is staying at max range, and even that doesn't work well. It is way to easy for a 12 gun BB salvo to hit you even when you stay at your max range. Besides, staying at 13KM from your closest target all game long isn't very flexible or helpful to your team, and, unfortunately, not something you can really do in this current day and age.

 

 

Not to count out the possibility that I may just be playing him wrong, I ask my other questions.

1. If you have a Khaba, what captain skills do you use? Do you find CE a requirement, or do you find better success focusing on other gunboat skills?

2. Do you ever get closer than 13KM to the enemy?

There is no destroyer that does Khaba's job better than Khaba. But if you want to contest caps then you're in the wrong ships (well, probably wrong line even - at the very worst you should be sitting in Grozovoi's branch). Khabarovsk is a ship that mostly spams HE from her max range and annoys the hell out of people. You have the speed and the shell arcs for that. You have armor and the hp pool for that. You even have heal. Your one weakness compared to other DDs in similar circumstances is the weakness to BB AP that can tear you a new one. However, you're not an easy target to hit and you normally don't draw THAT much attention (unless you're the only target available but if that's the case then you've probably misplayed - being shot at is great but the point is to "draw fire away from allies", not just "draw fire, period").

Khaba doesn't have the best DPM, her handling is pretty iffy to say the least, her torps are extremely situational. When engaging enemy DDs, she prefers to do it at ranges where they can disengage at will, which makes her a poor DD hunter (not to mention that with her "stealth" there's usually no way to force an engagement as long as the enemy DD player didn't just suffer from stroke at their keyboard -- they'll see you coming LONG before you get a chance to spot them). And don't get me started on Khaba cap contesting. She's a great ship (imo much superior to t9 Soviet gunboats) but she has her own playstyle and you REALLY don't want to end up in a Khaba as the only DD your team has. Even one of the two is a pain.

Basically, from what you're saying, it seems that "the only time you've been able to make it kind of work" isn't a fluke. That's when you played more-or-less in accordance to Khaba's playstyle. And if that's helpful... well, it depends. Khaba can put some pressure in a way no other DD can, tank in a way not possible for any other DD - but she's not capable of providing the standard DD services. It's ok if it's a DD-heavy match (even more so if friendly DDs have a brain or two between the few of them) but yes, it can hurt your team if it's a 1-2 DD per team match.

 

As for captain skills - Khaba is a DD where CE is... optional, let's say. Basically, you don't expect to be sneaking up on anyone (more so since you probably aren't taking the concealment module since you want your rudder to work) and you won't stealth-torp no matter what, so the only point is to disengage when things get too hot... but you're REALLY fast and tend to fight from close to your max range, so disengaging usually isn't much of a problem even without CE. All in all, you can probably find better use for these 4 captain points. Still, concealment is concealment, it always makes it easier to re-position safely when needed and stuff. So it's not like the points are completely wasted. But "not completely wasted" doesn't yet mean "worth spending" - I'd look towards other skills.

[Prospect_b]

1 hour ago, JimmyThePirate said:

Is there a particular reason to pick Khaba over those?

No.

 

For what the khaba does, you're off better with a Henri IV.

[Panocek]

31 minutes ago, eliastion said:

There is no destroyer that does Khaba's job better than Khaba. But if you want to contest caps then you're in the wrong ships (well, probably wrong line even - at the very worst you should be sitting in Grozovoi's branch). Khabarovsk is a ship that mostly spams HE from her max range and annoys the hell out of people. You have the speed and the shell arcs for that. You have armor and the hp pool for that. You even have heal. Your one weakness compared to other DDs in similar circumstances is the weakness to BB AP that can tear you a new one. However, you're not an easy target to hit and you normally don't draw THAT much attention (unless you're the only target available but if that's the case then you've probably misplayed - being shot at is great but the point is to "draw fire away from allies", not just "draw fire, period").

Khaba doesn't have the best DPM, her handling is pretty iffy to say the least, her torps are extremely situational. When engaging enemy DDs, she prefers to do it at ranges where they can disengage at will, which makes her a poor DD hunter (not to mention that with her "stealth" there's usually no way to force an engagement as long as the enemy DD player didn't just suffer from stroke at their keyboard -- they'll see you coming LONG before you get a chance to spot them). And don't get me started on Khaba cap contesting. She's a great ship (imo much superior to t9 Soviet gunboats) but she has her own playstyle and you REALLY don't want to end up in a Khaba as the only DD your team has. Even one of the two is a pain.

Basically, from what you're saying, it seems that "the only time you've been able to make it kind of work" isn't a fluke. That's when you played more-or-less in accordance to Khaba's playstyle. And if that's helpful... well, it depends. Khaba can put some pressure in a way no other DD can, tank in a way not possible for any other DD - but she's not capable of providing the standard DD services. It's ok if it's a DD-heavy match (even more so if friendly DDs have a brain or two between the few of them) but yes, it can hurt your team if it's a 1-2 DD per team match.

 

As for captain skills - Khaba is a DD where CE is... optional, let's say. Basically, you don't expect to be sneaking up on anyone (more so since you probably aren't taking the concealment module since you want your rudder to work) and you won't stealth-torp no matter what, so the only point is to disengage when things get too hot... but you're REALLY fast and tend to fight from close to your max range, so disengaging usually isn't much of a problem even without CE. All in all, you can probably find better use for these 4 captain points. Still, concealment is concealment, it always makes it easier to re-position safely when needed and stuff. So it's not like the points are completely wasted. But "not completely wasted" doesn't yet mean "worth spending" - I'd look towards other skills.

Thing is, Khaba over her career was repeatedly nerfed while Tashkent was repeatedly buffed, to the point its questionable that one turret is worth all the penalties.

 

Tash works just fine with the same build as Kebab, but due to having actual rudder shift she can get Concealment upgrade, combined with 8km torps it enables her to stealth torp incoming ships. On top of that Tash have almost the same range as Kebab of old 15.2km, recent addition of DP turrets solve her issue of slow turret traverse

[B0Tato]

4 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Thing is, Khaba over her career was repeatedly nerfed while Tashkent was repeatedly buffed, to the point its questionable that one turret is worth all the penalties.

 

Tash works just fine with the same build as Kebab, but due to having actual rudder shift she can get Concealment upgrade, combined with 8km torps it enables her to stealth torp incoming ships. On top of that Tash have almost the same range as Kebab of old 15.2km, recent addition of DP turrets solve her issue of slow turret traverse

In addition Tashkent doesn't suffer from high calibre AP that much.

If Udaloy buff goes trough, she will also be a very good ship. I kinda like her even now more than Tashkent.

[Panocek]

5 minutes ago, B0Tato said:

In addition Tashkent doesn't suffer from high calibre AP that much.

If Udaloy buff goes trough, she will also be a very good ship. I kinda like her even now more than Tashkent.

Udaloi always was good ship, why she was placed in "DD" line while keeping her gunboat profile is beyond me.

 

She could be easily turned into Freemium DD with Neustrashimy taking her place in tech tree, making way more sense progression wise.

[JimmyThePirate]

Played a few more games with greater success. Kept my distance and didn't turn to dodge shells made it a lot better.

[JimmyThePirate]

Khaba isn't as bad as I feared, but I still don't think that it is as big of an upgrade over tashkent as it should be, or if you would even call it an upgrade. :/ Its easier to do damage, but worse at everything else it feels like.

[eliastion]

1 minute ago, Panocek said:

Thing is, Khaba over her career was repeatedly nerfed while Tashkent was repeatedly buffed, to the point its questionable that one turret is worth all the penalties.

 

Tash works just fine with the same build as Kebab, but due to having actual rudder shift she can get Concealment upgrade, combined with 8km torps it enables her to stealth torp incoming ships. On top of that Tash have almost the same range as Kebab of old 15.2km, recent addition of DP turrets solve her issue of slow turret traverse

+33% DPM

+a little bit of speed and hp

but perhaps most importantly

+armor that seriously mitigates damage from enemy cruisers and gunboats

 

The only real problem with Khaba in her preferred playstyle is the range - with her flat arcs she could use that extra bit of range. Other than that - she's just more specialized... but the problem is: Trashcan's overspecialization for similar playstyle is already at crippling levels. If you want a reasonably versatile DD, you should probably go for Grozovoi (or something that's not Russian). If you want Khaba playstyle, however... why would you settle for a knockoff that can't really do Khaba's job nearly as good while still sucking at being a proper DD anyway?

 

But hey, that's just my opinion, I'm aware that there are people that actually enjoy Tashkent. For me it just feels like a ship that's not particularly good at anything but at the same time sucks at quite a few things. The very definition of a stinker, basically. Khaba, on the other hand, has significant weaknesses, even more pronounced at certain points - but she also does have things she truly shines at. It takes some hard work for me to imagine a situation where I would be in a Khaba and thinking "man, I wish I was in a Tashkent". The picture of sitting in Tashkent and thinking "man, I wish I was in Khaba... or pretty much anything else, for that matter" comes to me pretty naturally, though.

[Allied_Winter]

16 minutes ago, Panocek said:

She could be easily turned into Freemium DD with Neustrashimy taking her place in tech tree, making way more sense progression wise.

What would I give for WG to actually do that.

 

Ognevoi --> Ognevoi on steroids --> Grozovoi is a much better progression .... 

[Panocek]

1 minute ago, eliastion said:

+33% DPM

+a little bit of speed and hp

but perhaps most importantly

+armor that seriously mitigates damage from enemy cruisers and gunboats

 

The only real problem with Khaba in her preferred playstyle is the range - with her flat arcs she could use that extra bit of range. Other than that - she's just more specialized... but the problem is: Trashcan's overspecialization for similar playstyle is already at crippling levels. If you want a reasonably versatile DD, you should probably go for Grozovoi (or something that's not Russian). If you want Khaba playstyle, however... why would you settle for a knockoff that can't really do Khaba's job nearly as good while still sucking at being a proper DD anyway?

 

But hey, that's just my opinion, I'm aware that there are people that actually enjoy Tashkent. For me it just feels like a ship that's not particularly good at anything but at the same time sucks at quite a few things. The very definition of a stinker, basically. Khaba, on the other hand, has significant weaknesses, even more pronounced at certain points - but she also does have things she truly shines at. It takes some hard work for me to imagine a situation where I would be in a Khaba and thinking "man, I wish I was in a Tashkent". The picture of sitting in Tashkent and thinking "man, I wish I was in Khaba... or pretty much anything else, for that matter" comes to me pretty naturally, though.

 

Armor can stop low to mid caliber HE. But also it arms AP like a charm, especially bad as Khaba was spared from "BB AP overpen only on DDs" change.

And what "overspecialization" as entire line from Tier 7 onwards uses exactly the same gameplay of run and gun? If you want to cap bases in Tash/Kiev, its bad idea no matter how much camo you stack on them, as it still above 7km, though enables stealth torping for late game low hp situations.

 

Khaba sacrifices too much for that 50mm stripe of armor and 4th turret, while having quite worse firing arcs for rear turrets

And times of "Trashkent" are long gone since she is tier 9, even more so since she got quick traverse turrets.

[RUSSIANBlAS]

Maybe if enough people complain they will restore the old Khaba?

 

10km trips and the super ruddershift time 

[Panocek]

1 minute ago, Negativvv said:

Maybe if enough people complain they will restore the old Khaba?

 

10km trips and the super ruddershift time 

I'd take old 15.6km range. And maybe cruiser level rudder shift instead current BB one

[Animalul2012]

I fell sorry for you but this ship will sit as port decoration in your port! it is useless most of the time, short range guns, mediocre dpm, horrible rudder shift, 9.7 stock concealment and with full concealment build you reach 7.9 but you have to trade firepower, and rudder shift. aa is destroyer level, and everything about survivability is a joke. you think that 50mm plate will protect you? no it wont cruisers will still do up to 3 to 5k damage and if you meet an IPHE henry or hindenburg is even worse... oh and that plate is 50mm so most AP shells will have time to arm meaning you will eat full penetration damage, it is also big so not to hard to hit. the only thing that it has is speed and thats it nothing else. if you want a stupid OP broken boat go for the japanese gunboats kitakaze and harugumo, soviet dd line is worthless and powercreeped, exception being grozovoi. 

[B0Tato]

7 minutes ago, Panocek said:

I'd take old 15.6km range. And maybe cruiser level rudder shift instead current BB one

And the original reload!

[Flavio1997]

55 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Udaloi always was good ship, why she was placed in "DD" line while keeping her gunboat profile is beyond me.

 

She could be easily turned into Freemium DD with Neustrashimy taking her place in tech tree, making way more sense progression wise.

I strongly second that

 

 

i did both the lines at the same time and bought the same day both the grozovoi and khaba.

khaba build is: 

pt

LS-ar

SI-DE

AFT-ifhe ( thinking about  removing this one)

double rudder

 

meanwhile on grozo i have:

pt

LS-ar

SI-SE

CE-aft

rudder and concealment module ( 4-5 slots)

both have the reload module as the 6th slot

 

and here lies the problem: grozovoi outkhaba the khaba

 

advantage of khaba is:

one more heal

7% better dpm ( 96 vs 90 shells/ min)

2 knots better speed

 

meanwhile grozo has:

smoke

even with a single rudder it still have 1 sec better rudder

1.3 kms range advantage ( 13.5 vs 14.8 kms)

even FASTER shells ( 950m/s vs 900) with better drag and penetration of ap, that mitigates the dpm disadvantage

doesn't get blapped by bb ap

usable torps

dd-esque concealment at 6.1

 

grozovoi can do what khaba does, but better, meanwhile it can still play as a dd

 

right now khaba has no reason to be played since henry4 and grozo are here ( not talking about the harogumo and kita, they need a full fat 1 kms concealment nerf to be balanced)

 

edit: i forgot, grozo has even defaa

 

[eliastion]

15 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Armor can stop low to mid caliber HE. But also it arms AP like a charm, especially bad as Khaba was spared from "BB AP overpen only on DDs" change.

 

Still, that was not a big problem before the change - unlikely to become one after it. BBs never really scared me in Khaba and it's not like they gained an extra advantage - it's just that most other DDs got buffed against them.

 

32 minutes ago, Panocek said:

And what "overspecialization" as entire line from Tier 7 onwards uses exactly the same gameplay of run and gun?

Precisely. And Khaba is MUCH better at that compared to Tashkent.

 

33 minutes ago, Panocek said:

If you want to cap bases in Tash/Kiev, its bad idea no matter how much camo you stack on them, as it still above 7km, though enables stealth torping for late game low hp situations. 

See? Their advantage over Khaba is very situational since you usually won't be using the ability to stealth-torp anyway. Which is why losing this ability on upgrade to Khaba isn't a big deal.

 

35 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Khaba sacrifices too much for that 50mm stripe of armor and 4th turret, while having quite worse firing arcs for rear turrets

And times of "Trashkent" are long gone since she is tier 9, even more so since she got quick traverse turrets.

You yourself pointed out why Khaba doesn't really sacrifice much - the predecessor already sucked at the things Khaba sacrifices. And as for Trashcan - actually, she was just as bad at t9. The regardless of any subsequent buffs she still can't hold a candle to Khaba. I don't suffer from lack of credits or port slot so she sits in my port but if I had to grind the line again, I wouldn't even be buying Tashkent - I'd just skip her paying with freeXP not only for modules (as I usually do) but for just skipping the tier entirely. And I'd consider it a good deal because Trashcan is most definitely not something I'd want to sail in Randoms - and grinding through a t9 ship in coop would take forever. This ship is just worse at being a Khaba than a Khaba while sucking at everything else almost as much as Khaba does. I know not everyone shares my opinion, but from my perspective she is a complete stinker.

[Panocek]

19 minutes ago, B0Tato said:

And the original reload!

But that was only 4.5s, hardly worth the effort

[Panocek]

Just now, eliastion said:

Still, that was not a big problem before the change - unlikely to become one after it. BBs never really scared me in Khaba and it's not like they gained an extra advantage - it's just that most other DDs got buffed against them.

 

Precisely. And Khaba is MUCH better at that compared to Tashkent.

 

See? Their advantage over Khaba is very situational since you usually won't be using the ability to stealth-torp anyway. Which is why losing this ability on upgrade to Khaba isn't a big deal.

 

You yourself pointed out why Khaba doesn't really sacrifice much - the predecessor already sucked at the things Khaba sacrifices. And as for Trashcan - actually, she was just as bad at t9. The regardless of any subsequent buffs she still can't hold a candle to Khaba. I don't suffer from lack of credits or port slot so she sits in my port but if I had to grind the line again, I wouldn't even be buying Tashkent - I'd just skip her paying with freeXP not only for modules (as I usually do) but for just skipping the tier entirely. And I'd consider it a good deal because Trashcan is most definitely not something I'd want to sail in Randoms - and grinding through a t9 ship in coop would take forever. This ship is just worse at being a Khaba than a Khaba while sucking at everything else almost as much as Khaba does. I know not everyone shares my opinion, but from my perspective she is a complete stinker.

Khaba isn't that much better, but is MUCH less forgiving to play than predecessors. 

[ColonelPete]

1 hour ago, JimmyThePirate said:

Khaba isn't as bad as I feared, but I still don't think that it is as big of an upgrade over tashkent as it should be, or if you would even call it an upgrade. :/ Its easier to do damage, but worse at everything else it feels like.

Just the second strongest Tier X DD on the EU server....

 

 

Tier IX RU DD for reference.

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20190119/eu_week/average_ship.html