AP Penetration and no damage

[Rowboat_Cop]

I know some of you will react salty to this and I hope you can stay serious and helpful.
This may also make me sound like a noob, considering I have almost 12k battles under my belt.
I also know that this has been brought up in the forums before, however, there is no point in reviving old dead threads.

So please bare with me.
 

Lately I have experienced an overly large amount of AP Bullet Penetration without dealing any damage to the enemy target.
Up until now I have always accepted this with the reasoning that I probably hit a turret or a torpedo launcher or maybe the enemy ship suffered from damage saturation right at the spot I was hitting..
 

But the more I played, the less sense it all made.

I kept landing pretty good AP hits in the enemy target hulls and from time to time they would register as Hull Penetrations and still do absolutely no damage.
And this on Full HP ships that no way in h... could suffer from "damage saturation".

 

And before you ask what ships I play and when I experience this..
It happens with pretty much every ship I own.

It does not happen that often, maybe once or twice in 5-6 matches for me.

I mostly play Tier 10 battles and I was thinking I should record this the next time it happens.

So I did.

 

But this time, just now, it was in a Tier 6 Pensacola, using AP Bullets, shooting a Tier 5 Texas in the so called "Cheek"-waterline.
I land 6 AP bullets, 5 of them were penetrations, 1 was a break.

Absolutely no damage dealt...

Slow Motion Video : 

 

I mean, sure I can accept that it is hard to deal damage to an armored ship like the Texas using Cruiser AP Bullets.

But this is the Pensacola we are talking about and the bullets actually register as penetrations..

 

So I really have to ask..

Is it possible that the bullet registration mechanics are bugged?

I mean, I keep hearing other players complain about the same thing, even The mighty jijngles youtuber complains about it in his videos from time to time..

My reason for starting this thread is so that I can decide on whether or not I should enter this as a bug report or not.
Are you guys experiencing the same thing?

Am I missing something?

Best Regards
Me

[Rowboat_Cop]

It seems youtube is taking forever to render the video in high quality.

[DFens_666]

Im not sure if there are more lately - i always got lots of em

But i suspect if they maybe changed something with the torpedo bulges (at the time they tested guaranteed overpen damage on saturated areas + other parts even when getting penetrations). Feels like you can pen the torpedo bulge, but you get stuck at the main belt armor behind that. Its a layer of 25-32mm or so, and behind that you get >300mm on most BBs. So if you are far away, you will pen the torpedo bulge but shatter on the armor behind it, and the game registers a penetration.

 

Think thats my explanation - whether it was always like that or not, im not sure. But atleast this would make sense...somewhat.

@wilkatis_LV knows this stuff better.

[Rowboat_Cop]

Thanks for your answer.

If your explanation is how it actually functions then there is in fact something wrong with the information that is given back to the player.
 

That is at least my opinion.

If the bullet penetrates any number of armor layers and breaks on any other layer later in its trajectory/path then I think it should be reported/registered as a break, not a penetration.

It should basically report its latest event/action in its time of existence.

It seams bugged, specially if you put it into contrast with overpens.

Any successful overpen bullet has penetrated any number of armor layers only to find itself exiting the boat on the other side and is not registered as a penetration.

So, so far I still think it is a bug :)

/me

[wilkatis_LV]

Allright, I figured how this works. @DFens_666 was correct (it's torp bulges), and what led to me was that @Rowboat_Cop fired at the waterline at range too short for shells to curve massively

 

 

Basically if you simply shoot the torpedo bulge without penetrating the belt - nothing has changed, you still get shatters as you're supposed to

 

BUT if that hit is an under-water hit, which wouldn't be too surprising when going for the waterline, those same bulge-hits suddenly start printing out 0 dmg pens

 

 

This also explains why I personally hadn't noticed any change - if I go for a waterline shot it's when I'm reasonably confident I can actually actually go through the main belt. And in such a situation getting a 0 dmg pen or two seems more like "some hit where they're supposed to, some hit modules up higher". Also explains why against ships with massive bulges - like Yamato  and Republic - there are more complaints about this

 

So yeah. Obligatory @MrConway @Crysantos tag, would be nice if this could get fixed

 

13 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Tbh I wasn't even aware anything changed in that regard.

Quote from before your post

Technically nothing has, at least not directly. This might have been a case that noone had discovered, or it might be a "tag along" bug introduced with something else (like that time when they tried to make bulges dmg zone)

[El2aZeR]

Can confirm that torp bulges still give pens.

Spoiler

 

Tbh I wasn't even aware anything changed in that regard.

[Rowboat_Cop]

34 minutes ago, wilkatis_LV said:

 

Liels Paldies Wilkatis! (Literally "Huge Thanks" in latvian)

Yea it does make sense the way you explain it.

And I am happy you tested it and that you seem to agree that it is a "bug".

Wonder if I should use my last bit of energy to report it in the bug reports thread..

/Me


 

[ForlornSailor]

53 minutes ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Also explains why against ships with massive bulges - like Yamato  and Republic - there are more complaints about this

 

Yup, I dumped a full broadside with Missouri into a Republique not long ago from a distance of something like 2 km, 7 pens, 0 dmg. These 0-dmg-pens are annoying. Atleast dont give us a penetration ribbon, when the shell does 0 damage.

 

About the bulges itself: Its tricky. If we would be able to deal damage to them, its a huge nerf to any ship with bulges. Because they would receive a lot more damage. But as it is right now, the mechanic hugly favours ships with bulges, because you simply deal no damage at all in situations described above. Both is wrong if you ask me. To get this even, I assume the entire game mechanics and even armor modules would need to be changed. So yea, not going to happen?

[Rowboat_Cop]

Ok, no more posts needed in this thread.
Bug report available at 

Thanks all.

[wilkatis_LV]

4 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

About the bulges itself: Its tricky. If we would be able to deal damage to them, its a huge nerf to any ship with bulges. Because they would receive a lot more damage. But as it is right now, the mechanic hugly favours ships with bulges, because you simply deal no damage at all in situations described above. Both is wrong if you ask me.

Bulges are effectively a non-existant zone normally. Hell, due to normalization having the bulge sometimes may even be worse than not having it

 

Normally if you shoot the bulge without penetrating whatever is behind it you get a shatter not a pen - just like you would without that bulge. It seems to be bugged only with underwater hits.

Similarly if you go through the bulge and then bounce on the belt behind it - that *should* give you a bounce ribbon.

 

The only adavantage for the "bulge" would be if 2 ships have basically the same belt thickness and the ship firing at them has less than [bulge thickness]mm extra pen so

 

Now HE would be a different matter, but against that those bulges are effectively  "spaced armour", and that part is working as intended

[MrConway]

On 1/19/2019 at 12:27 AM, wilkatis_LV said:

Allright, I figured how this works. @DFens_666 was correct (it's torp bulges), and what led to me was that @Rowboat_Cop fired at the waterline at range too short for shells to curve massively

 

 

Basically if you simply shoot the torpedo bulge without penetrating the belt - nothing has changed, you still get shatters as you're supposed to

 

BUT if that hit is an under-water hit, which wouldn't be too surprising when going for the waterline, those same bulge-hits suddenly start printing out 0 dmg pens

 

 

This also explains why I personally hadn't noticed any change - if I go for a waterline shot it's when I'm reasonably confident I can actually actually go through the main belt. And in such a situation getting a 0 dmg pen or two seems more like "some hit where they're supposed to, some hit modules up higher". Also explains why against ships with massive bulges - like Yamato  and Republic - there are more complaints about this

 

So yeah. Obligatory @MrConway @Crysantos tag, would be nice if this could get fixed

 

Quote from before your post

Technically nothing has, at least not directly. This might have been a case that noone had discovered, or it might be a "tag along" bug introduced with something else (like that time when they tried to make bulges dmg zone)

 

Give me a replay with time-stamps and I'll pass it on for a closer look!

[MrFingers]

Basically:

 

[Ferry_25]

I've opened a question about it in the Q&A. Only viable answer I got there was dmg saturation. Yeah: that's the only thing making real sense. Something that's been destroyed can't be "more destroyed." The rest of the explanations don't make sense. "Not hitting a vital part like the toilet houses." Just like Mr Beans paintjob. It precisely blows out that compartment without making a scratch on the surrounding ones? "A dud." Why not half overpen dmg? 

 

I totally get a bounce or a shatter. And the fact not all hits can be catastrophic citadel hits. But penetration and not even scratching something??? I just don't get it. 

[DFens_666]

1 hour ago, MrConway said:

 

Give me a replay with time-stamps and I'll pass it on for a closer look!

 

I can give you one from a recent game i played, but a training room test might be better

With 9:55 left to play, i start shooting the Musashi several times, resulting overall in 7x 0 damage penetrations + 1 normal pen. You can see the shells hitting the waterline, which normaly would shatter/hit the citadel if it would hit the citadel armor, so i have to hit the bulges in order to get penetrations but without damage ofc.

 

20190120_174404_PRSC509-Kronshtadt_22_tierra_del_fuego.wowsreplay

[wilkatis_LV]

4 hours ago, MrConway said:

 

Give me a replay with time-stamps and I'll pass it on for a closer look!

Training room replay (same as I posted in bug reports section) for easier recreation:
20190119_012415_PRSD206-Pr-7_33_new_tierra.wowsreplay

Time-stamps given by in-game timer

• 60:00 - 56:45
  • Getting in position
• 56:45 - 54:00
  • Firing at the torpedo bulge above waterline
    • Receiving shatters as I should
    • Single shell goes high and gets a damaging pen on the 32mm plate
  • At around 55:00 single salvo at waterline as a "spoiler" for what's to come (same result as in next section)
• 54:00 - 52:45
  • Firing at / slightly below waterline
    • Hits on the torp bulge below waterline are giving full pens with 0 dmg instead of shatters
      • Possibly bcuz shell explodes before reaching the main belt?
• 52:45
  • Replay ends

Note - replay's lagging at times as I had some [severe] internet issues while playing that training room.