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Dirty_Dunc

Lack of Objective Gameplay

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Right across the tiers, entire teams are just ignoring domination caps and team points.  This isn't the odd game, it's more or less every game.

 

Games are needlessly being lost because new new players are oblibious of caps and team points.

 

Can Wargaming please make objectives clearer to the new players please.  Maybe some training missions or extra instruction explaining the capping process and the points system.

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9 minutes ago, Dirty_Dunc said:

new new players are oblibious of caps and team points

Are you sure it's just new new new players? Cause to me it seems it's players from all 'battle ranks'. No matter if a player is there since just yesterday or in the game for 12.000 battles.

 

If a player refuses to learn or refuses to do the team play, there's little you can do.

 

WG COULD (!!!) add mandatory trainings you'd have to complete in order to either get into the next tier or into a new class. But this won't happen. It'd harm the playerbase more than it'd do good. Because if a player refuses to learn even training missions wouldn't stop them.

 

"Oh? I can't play at T8 due to being too bad? Well I have my T7 ships. I play until I make it!"

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Trust me i wish they could to make games more interesting.

But i fear there is nothing WG can implement to make them go for objectives. 

i mean its already straight forward. U turn the circle green and u need to keep it green.

you litterly cant get it more simple then that. 

 

But most players just want to sail circles in spawn  doing nothing all game.

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7 minutes ago, lameoll said:

But most players just want to sail circles in spawn

And press the left mouse button every once in a while. If they desire. And find it.

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25 minutes ago, Allied_Winter said:

And press the left mouse button every once in a while. If they desire. And find it.

They know what a mouse is used for? 

Things are improving :Smile_trollface:

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1 hour ago, Dirty_Dunc said:

Right across the tiers, entire teams are just ignoring domination caps and team points.  This isn't the odd game, it's more or less every game.

Welcome to World of Warships.

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2 hours ago, Dirty_Dunc said:

 This isn't the odd game, it's more or less every game.

 

 

As has been since the beginning, you must be new around... oh wait...

 

 

Look, the dunce is back, lets all rejoyce!!!

 

:cap_horn: :cap_rambo:

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2 hours ago, Dirty_Dunc said:

new players are oblibious of caps and team points

Yeah, "new players". Often so "new" they have well over 10k battles played.

 

Clueless potatoes will be clueless no matter what, they don't have to be new to the game for that

 

 

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Oh yes, I had the "honor" of encountering OP in game last night.

His idea of "playing the objectives" is sitting as far away from the caps as possible in his Musashi shooting at the cruisers that are HE spamming my HIV whilst I was being permaspotted by an Asashio. I was in the cap, and rather than coming in closer to help me (by either tanking or capping) he choose to keep sniping (and securing kills). So yes, he clearly knows how to play the objectives and support his team.

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11 hours ago, Dirty_Dunc said:

Right across the tiers, entire teams are just ignoring domination caps and team points.  This isn't the odd game, it's more or less every game.

 

Games are needlessly being lost because new new players are oblibious of caps and team points.

 

Can Wargaming please make objectives clearer to the new players please.  Maybe some training missions or extra instruction explaining the capping process and the points system.

They are really clear, though. There are many things that don't work or cause problems because players lack information, but the role of objectives isn't one of them. People know the importance of objectives - they just choose to ignore it in hopes that someone else will handle difficult, risky things for them while they just pew-pew from relative safety in the back.

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I wonder how many players (both new or old)  actually know that you get a very generous xp boost for capping ?  I'd lay money not many and for that money I bet hoalf the players (both new and old again) do not understand that holding objectives increases your team's points over time.  Wargaming do not make these things obvious... it's needs to be 'put in lights' for a certain group players to understand!!!

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2 minutes ago, Dirty_Dunc said:

do not understand that holding objectives increases your team's points over time

And I bet that the same half doesn't care about points or winning...

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Dear All,

 

"The Pareto distribution, named after the Italian civil engineer, economist, and sociologist Vilfredo Pareto, is a power-law probability distribution that is used in description of social, scientific, geophysical, actuarial, and many other types of observable phenomena. Originally applied to describing the distribution of wealth in a society, fitting the trend that a large portion of wealth is held by a small fraction of the population, the Pareto distribution has colloquially become known and referred to as the Pareto principle, or "80-20 rule", and is sometimes called the "Matthew principle". This rule states that, for example, 80% of the wealth of a society is held by 20% of its population. However, the Pareto distribution only produces this result for a particular power value, {\displaystyle \alpha }\alpha (α = log45 ≈ 1.16). While {\displaystyle \alpha }\alphais variable, empirical observation has found the 80-20 distribution to fit a wide range of cases, including natural phenomena and human activities."

Source: Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_distribution Referenced 18 Jan 2019

Also may read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle

 

"The Matthew effect, Matthew principle, or Matthew effect of accumulated advantage can be observed in many aspects of life and fields of activity. It is sometimes summarized by the adage "the rich get richer and the poor get poorer."[1][2] The concept is applicable to matters of fame or status, but may also be applied literally to cumulative advantage of economic capital.

The term was coined by sociologist Robert K. Merton in 1968[3] and takes its name from the Parable of the talents or minas in the biblical Gospel of Matthew. Merton credited his collaborator and wife, sociologist Harriet Zuckerman, as co-author of the concept of the Matthew effect.[4]"

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_effect Referenced 18 Jan 2019

 

What does that mean?

 

Well it means that only 20% of us is responsible to 80% of the positive outcome in games. The remaining 80% is responsible for only the 20% of the outcome. Interestingly, the Pareto Principle applies in most of traits of life. From income to baseball. The analysis for baseball is pertinent to the subject in caption. 

 

"In baseball, the Pareto principle has been perceived in Wins Above Replacement (an attempt to combine multiple statistics to determine a player's overall importance to a team). "15% of the all the players last year produced 85% of the total wins with the other 85% of the players creating 15% of the wins. The Pareto Principle holds up pretty soundly when it is applied to baseball..."[18] "

 

However, it has also been said that:

"Unfortunately a brief look at this article's methods shows that the choice of alternate and probably better indicators of performance yields drastically different results that fail to support the Pareto Principle for this context. Thus this probably entails an example of cherry-picking."

 

All of the above to be taken with a pinch of salt (lol pun intended said @Saltface)

 

By applying the Pareto Principle to our game we can claim that: 

20% of the players on a team creates/generates 80% of the team points.

If these players belonging to this 20% are good, then your team will display a far better play and secure the win most of the times.

 

This also means that on average objectives are pursued by 20% of the players

The rest just fill in the empty spots of a team roster.

 

This is my take on this subject, it is epidermal not profound and just food for thought.

 

For those of us that are mathematically inclined could be an opportunity for some math play.

 

Dear @Skyllon I think I failed the maturity test once again.

Edited by Saltface
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That same group of players would likely to akin to kids playing football in the park ... someone inevitably ends up shoouting 'Goal' ;)  ... everyone likes winning .. as long as they know they objectives and what constitues a win :)

 

It's patently not clear enough because I've spoken to tier 10 players don't understand either he points system or capping ... so it's obvious to me that Wargaming need to make these things clearer ...

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Saltface said:
Spoiler

 

Dear All,

 

"The Pareto distribution, named after the Italian civil engineer, economist, and sociologist Vilfredo Pareto, is a power-law probability distribution that is used in description of social, scientific, geophysical, actuarial, and many other types of observable phenomena. Originally applied to describing the distribution of wealth in a society, fitting the trend that a large portion of wealth is held by a small fraction of the population, the Pareto distribution has colloquially become known and referred to as the Pareto principle, or "80-20 rule", and is sometimes called the "Matthew principle". This rule states that, for example, 80% of the wealth of a society is held by 20% of its population. However, the Pareto distribution only produces this result for a particular power value, {\displaystyle \alpha }\alpha (α = log45 ≈ 1.16). While {\displaystyle \alpha }\alphais variable, empirical observation has found the 80-20 distribution to fit a wide range of cases, including natural phenomena and human activities."

Source: Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_distribution Referenced 18 Jan 2019

Also may read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle

 

"The Matthew effect, Matthew principle, or Matthew effect of accumulated advantage can be observed in many aspects of life and fields of activity. It is sometimes summarized by the adage "the rich get richer and the poor get poorer."[1][2] The concept is applicable to matters of fame or status, but may also be applied literally to cumulative advantage of economic capital.

The term was coined by sociologist Robert K. Merton in 1968[3] and takes its name from the Parable of the talents or minas in the biblical Gospel of Matthew. Merton credited his collaborator and wife, sociologist Harriet Zuckerman, as co-author of the concept of the Matthew effect.[4]"

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_effect Referenced 18 Jan 2019

 

What does that mean?

 

Well it means that only 20% of us is responsible to 80% of the positive outcome in games. The remaining 80% is responsible for only the 20% of the outcome. Interestingly, the Pareto Principle applies in most of traits of life. From income to baseball. The analysis for baseball is pertinent to the subject in caption. 

 

"In baseball, the Pareto principle has been perceived in Wins Above Replacement (an attempt to combine multiple statistics to determine a player's overall importance to a team). "15% of the all the players last year produced 85% of the total wins with the other 85% of the players creating 15% of the wins. The Pareto Principle holds up pretty soundly when it is applied to baseball..."[18] "

 

However, it has also been said that:

"Unfortunately a brief look at this article's methods shows that the choice of alternate and probably better indicators of performance yields drastically different results that fail to support the Pareto Principle for this context. Thus this probably entails an example of cherry-picking."

 

All of the above to be taken with a pinch of salt (lol pun intended said @Saltface)

 

By applying the Pareto Principle to our game we can claim that: 

20% of the players on a team creates/generates 80% of the team points.

If these players belonging to this 20% are good, then your team will display a far better play and secure the win most of the times.

 

This also means that on average objectives are pursued by 20% of the players

The rest just fill in the empty spots of a team roster.

 

This is my take on this subject, it is epidermal not profound and just food for thought.

 

For those of us that are mathematically inclined could be an opportunity for some math play.

 

Dear @Skyllon I think I failed the maturity test once again.

 

 

 

Pareto was already debunked here, try again...

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6 minutes ago, Juanx said:

Pareto was already debunked here, try again...

Dear @Juanx,

 

you are most probably referring to this post in the forum 

As I do know that Google is my friend and I did my homework as you have suggested in a previous post, please consider that the subject of the post in caption and the one you are referring to are different.

 

My hypothesis is that "20% of the players in a team contribute to victory"

The hypothesis put forward in the forum post you are referring to is that "20% of the players constituting the player base of WoW are unicums"

 

These are two distinct proposals.

 

I also extrapolated and put forward that:

27 minutes ago, Saltface said:

This also means that on average objectives are pursued by 20% of the players

 

As I failed to see any debunking of my original statement, kindly point me towards the right direction and I will stand corrected.

 

Sincerely,

 

Saltface

 

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12 hours ago, Dirty_Dunc said:

Right across the tiers, entire teams are just ignoring domination caps and team points.  This isn't the odd game, it's more or less every game.

 

Games are needlessly being lost because new new players are oblibious of caps and team points.

 

Can Wargaming please make objectives clearer to the new players please.  Maybe some training missions or extra instruction explaining the capping process and the points system.

Objective is clear..peoples just potato and free exp thrue tiers....2 days ago i was in play with Henry who constantly whined in chad that he "must learn this ship"....when i asked what he was dooing thrue tiers 3-4-5-6-7-8-9 where FR cruisers have similar play style he had no good answer

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1 hour ago, Dirty_Dunc said:

I wonder how many players (both new or old)  actually know that you get a very generous xp boost for capping ?

You don't. There's nothing generous about the xp you get for capping. It's maybe the fourth best thing to do if you want xp, after damage, damage and damage.

 

 

That said, players are much more wary of capping these days. The ones who aren't are mostly the ones who yolo in and give the enemy the First Blood award, and then you're down one to three DDs. Capping is a lot more dangerous now than before, so caps will take longer to get on average to get. DDs especially want to know where the radar cruisers are, but the cruisers are also playing more carefully, so they won't get seen as easily.

 

Some DDs though, never get around to going into the caps even when all ships' positions have been revealed. But that might also be because the rest of the team thinks the map borders are windows to lick and thus can't give any proper support.

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I'm not sure where you get 'the fourth best thing' from xp wise?  ....... But Yes, I agree ........  damage is heavily rewarded in this game, too much so in my opionion and that's part of the point I'm making.

 

What really gets my goat, is when you get a Kraken, 200,000k+ damage and still lose, just because your team mates are ignorant of the teams' points and the importance of capping ...

 

Damage is nothing without a win behind it :)

 

That's like saying my team scored 5 goals isn't that fantastic .. when the opposing side scored 6 :)   ... it's not a win  ... and that's what counts.

 

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14 hours ago, Allied_Winter said:

And press the left mouse button every once in a while. If they desire. And find it.

 

What is this "left mouse button" you are talking about? Some kind of sorcery?

 

14 hours ago, Allied_Winter said:

Are you sure it's just new new new players? Cause to me it seems it's players from all 'battle ranks'. No matter if a player is there since just yesterday or in the game for 12.000 battles.

 

That caught my attention right away aswell. There are people with 20k battles that have no clue about objectives, points and time.

 

These days, I dont care about my damage anymore. At all. I only play for the win. And I know that I can not rely on any of the guys on my team, unless they are in my division. Thats why I always bring a division. Else, this game is unbearable. Once in a while I try to teamplay with that stuff around me and get dissapointed all the time. Last week : a Chapayev is pushing up behind my Benson. So i tell him: I smoke him, because there is a DD ahead, so he can radar it. What do you think? he rushes thought the smoke, gets spotted and doesnt radar. dead. My divisionmate tells me right away: great, you again wasted a smoke on an idiot. So here is my small guide on how to win in wows:

 

- Always bring a division. 2 is not enough, make it 3. And one class = one player.

- Only play for the objective. Because thats what wins games.

- Never die. You must be last man standing. Because you could give your team 998 points advantage and leave them 11 vs 1 and they STILL might be able to throw it.

- Expect nothing and expect the worst at the same time. This goes especially for your own "teammates".

 

6 hours ago, 159Hunter said:

Oh yes, I had the "honor" of encountering OP in game last night.

His idea of "playing the objectives" is sitting as far away from the caps as possible in his Musashi shooting at the cruisers that are HE spamming my HIV whilst I was being permaspotted by an Asashio. I was in the cap, and rather than coming in closer to help me (by either tanking or capping) he choose to keep sniping (and securing kills). So yes, he clearly knows how to play the objectives and support his team.

 

Like I said: always expect the worst.

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The more caps your team has the more points you get. The less caps you have the less points you get.

 

WG are guilty of many things but Domination objectives can't really be made much clearer...

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3 hours ago, Dirty_Dunc said:

I wonder how many players (both new or old)  actually know that you get a very generous xp boost for capping ? 

Actually capping doesn't give a big xp boost, Solo Capping does (getting the other ribbon, not the assisted one). Good luck doing that in aynthing bigger than a DD and without smoke though.

The normal assisted in cap ribbon isn't worth much more them a salvo worth of damage or some planekills.

 

Quote

I'd lay money not many and for that money I bet hoalf the players (both new and old again) do not understand that holding objectives increases your team's points over time. 

Well it's not hard to figure that out given that there are still a lot of player that think more damage taken will increase the service costs, even though that got changed years ago.

Quote

Wargaming do not make these things obvious... it's needs to be 'put in lights' for a certain group players to understand!!!

Well I say it's obvious enough to get it if you are not actively trying to not learn. Especially the "you are about to lose" announcement even though most of the ships are still alive camping in spawn area but the enemy has all caps and over 800 points. Also the audio when a cap gets flipped  or the points ticking near the pointsbar when they increase.

 

3 hours ago, Saltface said:

*lots of black text*

I don't care about that hypothesis much (because i can't be arsed to read it), but please make sure to reset the textcoloring after you copy + paste text from another website. Otherwise it makes it very hard to read while using the dark forum theme.

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