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allnan

Japanese and German T9-10 BB-s

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So I was just wondering if the BB-s are balanced at all. Yamato, G. Kurfürst and F. Der Große BB-s' deck's are 90% covered with 50mm or thicker armor, with the exception of Hindenburg none of the Cruisers can pen that with HE, so you have to hit the (especially for Yamato) tiny superstructure to deal any damage at all.

 

Other than the fact that it ruins enjoyment (I can literally fry any other BB, provided they don't KO me before, and against these just lit a fire, stealth, then after a while try to lit it on fire again) is it balanced? Do Japanese and German BB-s have some downside to compensate for semi-invulnerability?

Why do people even play any other nations' BB? Well, they don't really, Yamato and G. Kurfürst are the most played T10 BB-s, according to wows-numbers 60% of the games these two are played and 40% remains to the other T10 BB-s. (I don't really know from what time period those numbers are, forever or last x time, but still the fairly new G. Kurfürst is played more than the Montana.)

Is there any specific thing I could do to be more effective against them (other than hitting the superstructure, when I am close enough to reliably hit it, I am already dead), or this is the reason Hindenburg is the most played cruiser?

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Ever heard of IFHE? Then you get the cruiser to your list.

 

And if you think that those BBs are strong, why don't you play them? You have no experience to judge those ships and their survivability.

39 minutes ago, allnan said:

Do Japanese and German BB-s have some downside to compensate for semi-invulnerability? 

Yes, but you lack the knowledge and obvious the will to find out.

 

 

I guess the Kurfurst and the Friedrich are played so much because they are stronke bote.

/s

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Mmm... you don’t need to penetrate to cause fires. Did you know that? So you just burn them down. 

 

Both GK and Yamato are pretty difficult to play well in. Yamato has weak citadel protection and GK is a giant ship with a big super structure. Sadly most recommend BB beginners to start with the German BBs, while those are really difficult to play at the higher tiers (fdg topics?). Yamato can overmatch 32mm as the only BB. So perhaps that is the reason that those are most played.

 

There are also a few German players on this server. Could also have some influence.

 

 

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GK and Yamato?

 

GK has extremely inaccurate guns and you can score massive penetration damage to it purely because it is so big. It's slow and cumbersome.

 

Yamato seems to get citadelled pretty much every time you expose even a hint of broadside. It also cannot survive against multiple enemies, it does not like to be focused - I've been in quite a few situations with it where I've over-extended and even when bow-tanking I get melted by enemy HE spammers.

 

And yes, IFHE does also make quite a big difference.

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1 hour ago, allnan said:

So I was just wondering if the BB-s are balanced at all. Yamato, G. Kurfürst and F. Der Große BB-s' deck's are 90% covered with 50mm or thicker armor, with the exception of Hindenburg none of the Cruisers can pen that with HE, so you have to hit the (especially for Yamato) tiny superstructure to deal any damage at all.

 

Other than the fact that it ruins enjoyment (I can literally fry any other BB, provided they don't KO me before, and against these just lit a fire, stealth, then after a while try to lit it on fire again) is it balanced? Do Japanese and German BB-s have some downside to compensate for semi-invulnerability?

Why do people even play any other nations' BB? Well, they don't really, Yamato and G. Kurfürst are the most played T10 BB-s, according to wows-numbers 60% of the games these two are played and 40% remains to the other T10 BB-s. (I don't really know from what time period those numbers are, forever or last x time, but still the fairly new G. Kurfürst is played more than the Montana.)

Is there any specific thing I could do to be more effective against them (other than hitting the superstructure, when I am close enough to reliably hit it, I am already dead), or this is the reason Hindenburg is the most played cruiser?

The Yamato can be citadelled at any angle, because she has not a cube like citadell, but a hexgon like. So there is always one part of the citadel direction showing towards you

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54 minutes ago, principat121 said:

Ever heard of IFHE? Then you get the cruiser to your list.

 

And if you think that those BBs are strong, why don't you play them? You have no experience to judge those ships and their survivability.

Yes, but you lack the knowledge and obvious the will to find out.

 

 

I guess the Kurfurst and the Friedrich are played so much because they are stronke bote.

/s

Yeah, I forgot to mention I am not playing BB-s.

IFHE doesn't help, even with IFHE 203mm or even 240mm cruiser guns are not penning 50mm armor.

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14 minutes ago, allnan said:

or even 240mm cruiser guns are not penning 50mm armor.

wrong

  • 240mm / 6 = 40mm (tho, HE penetrates 39mm armor)
  • 40mm * 1.3 = 52mm (tho, with IFHE you penetrate 51mm of armor)

 

 

It is always recommended to have some experience in the whole field before criticising some game mechanics. Get to know both side of cruiser-batteship engagements.

 

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12 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

GK and Yamato?

 

GK has extremely inaccurate guns and you can score massive penetration damage to it purely because it is so big. It's slow and cumbersome.

 

Yamato seems to get citadelled pretty much every time you expose even a hint of broadside. It also cannot survive against multiple enemies, it does not like to be focused - I've been in quite a few situations with it where I've over-extended and even when bow-tanking I get melted by enemy HE spammers.

 

And yes, IFHE does also make quite a big difference.

Yeah, hurray other BB-s can citadel Yamato.

Well I guess if you over extend then you die no matter what BB you are playing, but still I belive under HE spam Yamato can survive significantly longer than for example a République. And in semi-1v1 I am happy if my full HE salvo even deals 1k dmg to a Yamato.

 

Anyway, I decided to grind Hindenburg, it is the most popular cruiser, the masses cannot be that wrong.

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6 minutes ago, principat121 said:

wrong

  • 240mm / 6 = 40mm (tho, HE penetrates 39mm armor)
  • 40mm * 1.3 = 52mm (tho, with IFHE you penetrate 51mm of armor)

 

 

It is always recommended to have some experience in the whole field before criticising some game mechanics. Get to know both side of cruiser-batteship engagements.

 

Ok, yeah I haven't calculated it on 240mm, but I am surely not planning on getting  Henry IV. And at the case of Henry IV it is a good question, if it worth 4 captain points and -3% fire chance, just to not suffer against 2 very specific BB-s.

 

But I won't know the other side, cuz I am horrible with BB-s. That's why I came here on the forum, to gather information on what I won't get to know myself. That is what forums are for.

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25 minutes ago, allnan said:

Yeah, hurray other BB-s can citadel Yamato.

So does Stalingrad, Moskva, Henry IV, Des Moines, Zao, Hindenburg. Yes, depending on ship and distance, but our "balanced" russian cruisers can almost pen the Yamatos cidatell from any distance (broadside given).

 

25 minutes ago, allnan said:

Well I guess if you over extend then you die no matter what BB you are playing

Except Conqueror.

 

25 minutes ago, allnan said:

but still I belive under HE spam Yamato can survive significantly longer than for example a République

Correct, Capt. Obvious! But why? The Yamato has much more HP and more armor. And the HE vulnerability is a designed weakness of the french BB. That is called balance.

 

25 minutes ago, allnan said:

And in semi-1v1 I am happy if my full HE salvo even deals 1k dmg to a Yamato.

Please provide a current replay from you playing a cruisers. I guess the Forum can point out why you are lacking damage in such situations. And I further think that it will have nothing to do with game mechanics.

 

25 minutes ago, allnan said:

Anyway, I decided to grind Hindenburg, it is the most popular cruiser, the masses cannot be that wrong.

Good choice. The Hindenburg is a true Jack-of-all-Trades (and master of None). It is a solide ship with good HE (because of 1/4 pen rule) and punishing AP. Furthermore great Hydro and torpedos for close quarter situations. And on top of that the Legendary Upgrade makes this ship a really nice brawler with almost invulnerability against fires.

 

 

 

But I still would highly recommend to start a BB-line as well to get to know your enemy.

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18 minutes ago, allnan said:

Ok, yeah I haven't calculated it on 240mm, but I am surely not planning on getting  Henry IV. And at the case of Henry IV it is a good question, if it worth 4 captain points and -3% fire chance, just to not suffer against 2 very specific BB-s.

Yes it is worth it. Consistent, heavy damage with every salvo and more than sufficient fire chance due to a high base chance.

 

Plus that 50mm plating isn't just on two specific BBs, there's also the Moskva and Stalingrad with their 50mm deck and the reason why HIVs became the prime anti-Stalingrad selection in current CBs.

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25 minutes ago, allnan said:

Yeah, hurray other BB-s can citadel Yamato.

And cruisers. Some even at really long ranges.

 

24 minutes ago, allnan said:

under HE spam Yamato can survive significantly longer than for example a République

Yes, and that is part of thsoe ships balancing.

 

23 minutes ago, allnan said:

Ok, yeah I haven't calculated it on 240mm, but I am surely not planning on getting  Henry IV. And at the case of Henry IV it is a good question, if it worth 4 captain points and -3% fire chance, just to not suffer against 2 very specific BB-s.

Technically it's at least 3 BBs and 2 CAs. Might be couple more, not sure

 

Also 1x fire signal + DE give you those 3% back if you want them so much

 

11 minutes ago, principat121 said:

Except Conquerer.

Please. With that healthpool and heals cooldown it won't save you if you are overextended, especially if you take at least 1 torp (pretty much an instant guarantee you won't get a full heal off that game) or enemies are smart enough to use AP on you

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12 minutes ago, principat121 said:

So does Stalingrad, Moskva, Henry IV, Des Moines, Zao, Hindenburg. Yes, depending of ship and distance, but our "balanced" russian cruisers can almost pen the Yamatos cidatell from any distance (broadside given).

 

Except Conquerer.

 

Correct, Capt. Obvious! But why? The Yamato has much more HP and more armor. And the HE vulnerability is a designed weakness of the french BB. That is called balance.

 

Please provide a current replay from you playing a cruisers. I guess the Forum can point out why you are lacking damage in such situations. And I further think that it will have nothing to do with game mechanics.

 

Good choice. The Hindenburg is a true Jack-of-all-Trades (and master of None). It is a solide ship with good HE (because of 1/4 pen rule) and punishing AP. Furthermore great Hydro and torpedos for close quarter situations. And on top of that the Legendary Upgrade makes this ship a really nice brawler with almost invulnerability against fires.

 

 

 

But I still would highly recommend to start a BB-line as well to get to know your enemy.

I don't care if some cruisers can cit Yamato (Des Moines clearly can't I was testing it, from like 8km, so probably other 203mm cruisers can't as well, or yeah again maybe it is theoretically possible), but still my point is that 95% of the time cruisers won't cit Yamato, because in that distance they are already dead. They are gonna spam HE from relatively far and be very inefficient.

 

I would argue that not taking a lot less HE damage leads to longer survival than a super fast heal.

 

I am lacking damage in those situations, cuz as I said 203mm HE is semi-useless against T10 Japanese and German BB-s.

 

Hah I won't start BB line. You cannot imagine the suffering I went through getting the snowflakes off of my 2 ARP Kongos.

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Again...

 

Provide a replay.

 

Replays are now automatically enabled for all players. You just have to pick the right one from your "World_of_warships_Eu/replays/..." folder and fine.

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21 minutes ago, Aotearas said:

Yes it is worth it. Consistent, heavy damage with every salvo and more than sufficient fire chance due to a high base chance.

 

Plus that 50mm plating isn't just on two specific BBs, there's also the Moskva and Stalingrad with their 50mm deck and the reason why HIVs became the prime anti-Stalingrad selection in current CBs.

I am not playing CB-s, but then why not Hindenburg? Can't it also pen 50mm? And from what I read HIV is kinda lackluster.

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42 minutes ago, Nishi_Kinuyo said:

Implying that every BB's deck should be HE-pennable. :Smile-angry:

Well yes, what else cruisers are gonna do? Praying doesn't make the Yamato go away.

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7 hours ago, allnan said:

I am not playing CB-s, but then why not Hindenburg? Can't it also pen 50mm? And from what I read HIV is kinda lackluster.

Hindenburg is slow and clumsy for a cruiser. HIV used to be lackluster, but the added reload booster is a great tool to punish dmg-cons and broadsides which is a massive + in cb.

It's AP also keeps it's penetration much better at long ranges. Hinden still has it beaten in sustained dpm, brawling power and tankyness but unlike the Henri it's relatively easy to chase down if it gets caught out of position.

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7 hours ago, allnan said:

I don't care if some cruisers can cit Yamato (Des Moines clearly can't I was testing it, from like 8km, so probably other 203mm cruisers can't as well, or yeah again maybe it is theoretically possible)

 

At anything higher than 6km I would aim for superstructure or upper belt with DM on Yama. However, the typical DM gameplay is near an island. If a Yama rushes you, he will be at a disadvantage - horrible turret speed means he can get 1 salvo off (at best). If you have the legendary upgrade, he may even not be able to shoot at all before you start running circles around him. And 1 vs 1 out in the open is a mistake from DM side.

At less than 6km, the weak spot under Yama's first turret will take citadel hits from DM.

 

7 hours ago, allnan said:

I would argue that not taking a lot less HE damage leads to longer survival than a super fast heal.

 

True. However, both ships need the extra survivability as their role implies tanking damage. Yama's gameplay is more static at mid to long range. This combined with the gun range means that it will be spotted almost constantly if it shoots. If it doesn't, it's not really a threat. Given that there are many ships that can dodge Yama's shells at range while keeping the fires on, I see no imbalance there. 

For GK - the typical gameplay with this ship is at mid to close range. This also means it's usually under constant fire. The superstructure is huge and saturates really slowly so the ship can take huge amount of HE damage.

 

7 hours ago, allnan said:

Hah I won't start BB line. You cannot imagine the suffering I went through getting the snowflakes off of my 2 ARP Kongos.

 

First of all - low tier BBs are mostly crap and the Kongos are actually some of the least crappy ones. Second - you know you can get the snowflakes a lot faster in co-op, right?

 

7 hours ago, allnan said:

Well yes, what else cruisers are gonna do? Praying doesn't make the Yamato go away.

 

Set a couple of fires on Yama, then switch to another target. If he puts them out, count 15s and light him up again. I can see you have Ibuki, Dimitri Donskoi and Des Moines.

 

DM usually plays near a capture point, behind island cover and lobs shells over the cliffs. The HE damage on Yama is usually pitiful but the fire rate and fire chance compensate for that. Still, DM's primary targets are DDs and other CA/CLs.

Ibuki is stealthy, maneuverable and has a very high fire chance - use that. Typical gameplay would be at range, out in the open, preferably flanking the enemy ships.

I don't have Dimitri Donskoi (got Stalingrad and stopped the grind for Moskva at T8). From what I've heard it plays similar to Ibuki but is less maneuverable.

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As long as u don't get hit in your cruisers, burning down Kurries and Yamatoes isn't a problem.

They rly don't like getting hit by HE, and usually u find a Yamato bow in and sitting still....spam HE till she burns, rinse and repeat.

As long as there aren't any DDs I need to focus down in my cruisers, Kurry and Yamatos are my first HE target when in range.

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1 hour ago, rnat said:

Hindenburg is slow and clumsy for a cruiser. HIV used to be lackluster, but the added reload booster is a great tool to punish dmg-cons and broadsides which is a massive + in cb.

It's AP also keeps it's penetration much better at long ranges. Hinden still has it beaten in sustained dpm, brawling power and tankyness but unlike the Henri it's relatively easy to chase down if it gets caught out of position.

Idk, again I don't have either, but HIV has a larger circle turning radius than Hindy, and I guess that is supposed to mean it is larger too? (Since Moskva is like the largest cruiser and it has an unbearable 1050m turning circle radius.) And both has ~12 sec rudder shift time (which doesn't really matter since you probably gonna run double rudder). But I guess with the speed booster HIV can be good at running away.

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The bow section on both the Yamato and Kurfurst is mostly covered in 32 mm plating, something you have no problem dealing with in a 203 mm armed cruiser or IFHE specced Wooster.

 

And as stated previously, you don't need to pen to cause fires.

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(how to delete post, my edit appeared as a new post for some reason)

 

Edited by allnan

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1 hour ago, ollonborre said:

The bow section on both the Yamato and Kurfurst is mostly covered in 32 mm plating, something you have no problem dealing with in a 203 mm armed cruiser or IFHE specced Wooster.

 

And as stated previously, you don't need to pen to cause fires.

The 32mm bow section makes up about 10% of both ships, so it is not exactly easy to hit as well.

 

And there is a big difference in being able to constantly damage a for example a Conqueror (meanwhile it is on fire as well), or against a Yamato you can only light it on fire then, idk go out for a smoke, come back, light it on fire again, repeat.

 

Anyways when in Rome, do as the Romans do, I'll grind to Hindenburg as well. I am still at Hipper, but yesterday in a game when I was against a G. Kurfürst I swear I was dealing more dmg to it than I ever did in my DM.

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4 hours ago, almitov said:

 

At anything higher than 6km I would aim for superstructure or upper belt with DM on Yama. However, the typical DM gameplay is near an island. If a Yama rushes you, he will be at a disadvantage - horrible turret speed means he can get 1 salvo off (at best). If you have the legendary upgrade, he may even not be able to shoot at all before you start running circles around him. And 1 vs 1 out in the open is a mistake from DM side.

At less than 6km, the weak spot under Yama's first turret will take citadel hits from DM.

 

 

True. However, both ships need the extra survivability as their role implies tanking damage. Yama's gameplay is more static at mid to long range. This combined with the gun range means that it will be spotted almost constantly if it shoots. If it doesn't, it's not really a threat. Given that there are many ships that can dodge Yama's shells at range while keeping the fires on, I see no imbalance there. 

For GK - the typical gameplay with this ship is at mid to close range. This also means it's usually under constant fire. The superstructure is huge and saturates really slowly so the ship can take huge amount of HE damage.

 

 

First of all - low tier BBs are mostly crap and the Kongos are actually some of the least crappy ones. Second - you know you can get the snowflakes a lot faster in co-op, right?

 

 

Set a couple of fires on Yama, then switch to another target. If he puts them out, count 15s and light him up again. I can see you have Ibuki, Dimitri Donskoi and Des Moines.

 

DM usually plays near a capture point, behind island cover and lobs shells over the cliffs. The HE damage on Yama is usually pitiful but the fire rate and fire chance compensate for that. Still, DM's primary targets are DDs and other CA/CLs.

Ibuki is stealthy, maneuverable and has a very high fire chance - use that. Typical gameplay would be at range, out in the open, preferably flanking the enemy ships.

I don't have Dimitri Donskoi (got Stalingrad and stopped the grind for Moskva at T8). From what I've heard it plays similar to Ibuki but is less maneuverable.

Ok, again I don't know much about clan battles, but in random you won't get in 6km to a Yamato. And I guess angling in a Yamato isn't unheard of. Then he has 6 accurate 460mm guns that will murder you in max 3 salvo, you can't deal damage to it with AP, and because it is a Yamato neither with HE.

 

I already sold Ibuki, it is incredibly squishy and I don't think I would like Zao, I cannot tolerate 36sec turret turn time.  I was grinding to Moskva before, but I changed my mind again, Dimitri Donskoi is a horrible ship. It has 12 180mm guns, with 12,5 sec reload time, and 10% fire chance (you need IFHE to do worth anything). I mean cmon, the told to be quite bad Buffalo has 12 203mm guns, with 12 sec reload time and 16% fire chance (you don't need IFHE). It is tankier too and turns better, also it does have a decent AA.

I can hardly tolerate Dimitri Donskoi's 870m turning circle radius, I don't want to find out what the 1050m, on Moskva is like (meanwhile still not being able to deal decent damage to the aforementioned two T10 BB-s). I don't want to have all ships, only a second T10 cruiser next to my DM, as they are stupidly expensive to maintain, and I don't play with premium.

 

I am not playing the island hugger DM, IMO it is quite lame, rather out in the open when I can WASD magic all I want without constantly bumping into islands. From 15+km with DM's quite good maneuverability you can dodge shells quite reliably, and even with DM-s parachute shells, you can hit BB-s quite reliably from that range too. So my main targets are BB-s, with DM shells it is quite hard hitting cruisers or destroyers. Sure I still usually go close to capture points but I mostly all I do is radar, and hit the DD a couple of lucky times, usually I need others to shoot it down.

 

Sure everything can be burned down, but there's a big difference if it takes 3 min or 10.

 

Sure, every single BB needs survivability for its role, but interestingly enough the two T10 BB-s that have this anti-HE armor are the most played ones. And again for some mysterious reason the only decent cruiser that can pen this is the most played T10 cruiser. God works in mysterious ways...

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