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IJN Torpedoes are still way too detectable.

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Shima is totally crap... getting 1+ average devastating strikes per game is exremely low. Torpedoes get detected too easily... so easy it gives the target enough time to realize he is about to take 20-80k damage within the next 3 seconds and they can report you even before their ship sinks.
 

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So problem is (espeically with the Shima), that those torpedos have other stats too high, so they're lacking in a good concealment. Buffing the torpedos with better concleament wouldn't work, they need an overall change. Less damage, but more concealment for example.

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19 minutes ago, Migantium_Mashum said:

@BrusilovX still didn't say there was a Radar ship in the cap, I was talking about spotting. Didn't even speak about Radar Cruisers in caps. You're clutching at straws.

 

You have 11 other ships to spot also remember so they can pick up radar ships from their LOS.

This guy is speaking sense maybe you others should listen.

And since we already know radar ships hide behind islands close to the caps, then how about you go out wide and spot or torp the offending ship.

Or does the radar cover all the flank as well as the cap?.

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3 minuty temu, UNTOK napisał:

This guy is speaking sense maybe you others should listen.

And since we already know radar ships hide behind islands close to the caps, then how about you go out wide and spot or torp the offending ship.

Or does the radar cover all the flank as well as the cap?.

On some maps Russian radar nearly does, worse is that enemy DDs usually have the same idea and if you meet Daring or full gunboat Gearing in Shima you are :etc_swear:.

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10 hours ago, Desteban said:

Well I am propably just a bad player and you shouldn't take me too serious since I can't make shima work.

But in my humble opinion shima is the worst DD in the entire TX bracket.

She has the least utility of all the DDs there and I have every TX DD except Gearing.

If the torps were actually good having a long reload would be fine but the torps are at best on par with the rest of the DDs.

 

Yugumo has way more torp soup ability than shima and gets better match making. If they just upgraded Yugumo with a

torp launcher and made her faster she would have been a glorious TX. Now we have a hybrid with buffed guns that can

do nothing well. It is easier to torp people with Daring than Shima but like I said maybe I just suck and can't handle

1.7 km detection on those super garbage torps. Altough I have to say my 8s rudder Khaba can dodge a full broadside attack from 

shima 12km torps so....maybe those torps actually do suck?

 

Have you maximum concealment at 5.6km?

Why are you running 12km torpedoes, could you not use the faster 8km @ 76 knots or even the 6.4km @ 81 knots?

If you're firing at distance then it is little wonder your torpedoes are detected, a plane, another ship and everyone knows they are coming.... you have to get in close to be effective in Shimakaze and fire between 6.5km and 7km from the target..that way you guarantee the target will eat your Torpedo Soup, may well even give him indigestion.

If you cannot attack the low concealment of Shimakaze means you can spot and to a team knowing where the enemy ships are is a priceless advantage... remember to learn the radar capabilities/hydro detection ranges of your opponents and you will never be detected by them. AND always have the escape route planned just in case you need it.. if you have to run watch your stern and change course as soon as the enemy fires looking at your mini map so as not to run into islands and become beached.

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6 minutes ago, UNTOK said:

This guy is speaking sense maybe you others should listen.

And since we already know radar ships hide behind islands close to the caps, then how about you go out wide and spot or torp the offending ship.

 

Already do that... and how was he speaking sense when he was deliberately misquoting my comments.. you best mates with him or something?

If you don't already know, because radar goes through everything, the ship with radar has a 360 degree detection zone to the range of their radar..so radar covers everything...

 

 

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15 hours ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

Usually DDs have - *gasp* - more than one torpedo launcher...

There are essentially two basic ways of using the Shimakaze torpedoes, and a few more advanced ways. Most people only use the first two.

  1. Fire all torpedoes in an even spread. This is useful for flushing smoke and when you're not certain where exactly to aim. Edit: Forgot to mention that it's also a good way to aim at multiple ships in a tight formation.
  2. Fire all torpedoes in the same narrow spread. This is useful for close range dev strikes and for bow-in ships if you can't get a better angle.
  3. Fire one launcher, wait ~30 s, fire another, and so on. This is useful for maximising flooding damage and mind trickery. This is where you need to anticipate your opponents movements once they spot your torps. You also need to be better at aiming and predicting your torps. If someone is chasing you, this is also to your advantage since the opponent can never be sure you don't have torps on the way.
  4. Fire one launcher, wait ~30 s, fire the remaining two. It's like a target will turn bow-in or away if they spot one set. The other two sets can then be fired in a narrow spread to better ensure a hit even accounting for BB-shaped holes in the spread.
  5. Fire your launchers at different targets. With five torps that do a ton of damage, you can afford to spread them around. This also requires better aim and prediction as well as map awareness, but it lowers the damage at a single target. However, you're also engaging more ships at the same time, which can be of advantage to your allies (especially fire starters).
  6. Fire wide spread. Only useful at very close range when you don't have time to aim or the launcher traverse is becoming an issue. It increases your torpedo angles if you've got it hard to manoeuvre and you just need those few degrees extra for one more hit. If you use it at longer ranges you're spraying and praying, nothing more.

You can of course use the same strategies with TRB ships, and to a lesser extent dual-launcher ships. However, TRB naturally encourages you to use both launchers at the same time, since if you wait between launches you don't get full advantage of the TRB. This is a case where the 30 s TRB encouraged more tactical and frequently more advantageous play.

 

3 hours ago, Luujaba said:

I have no idea why anyone would be using 20km torps on Shima.

Only time I've used those torps was back with the T9 Kagero and the old TRB that was 30 s. The 12 km torps didn't exist back then. But it's kind of funny how many hits I still got at 15 km (this is with TA for 16 km range).

 

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

So problem is (espeically with the Shima), that those torpedos have other stats too high, so they're lacking in a good concealment. Buffing the torpedos with better concleament wouldn't work, they need an overall change. Less damage, but more concealment for example.

And that would make everything more of the same.

 

45 minutes ago, Migantium_Mashum said:

Why are you running 12km torpedoes, could you not use the faster 8km @ 76 knots or even the 6.4km @ 81 knots?

Because you get far more opportunities to use them than with 8 km or 6.4 km. You're also far less vulnerable to radar and overextending, which improves your surviviability greatly. Besides, it's not like the 12 km torpedoes stop working if you use them at 6 km range. On the other hand, the 8 km torps stop working at retreating enemies and those farther away than 8 km accounting for movement.

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Ok more seriously since people have real trouble with simple concepts.

1) The farther away you fire torps at your target the more time there is for anything to happen. Some other ship spotting the torps, a plane spoting them, your target changing course completely etc.

 

The closest you are to your target with ANY DD the better your torp hit ratio will be.

 

2) Torp dispersion at longer ranges is also a problem. If you fire at a target 10+km away then by the time your torps do reach him they will be spread out at their max spread. Which means that at best you might get 1 or 2 connections.

Torp close to ensure high damage salvos.

 

3) Torping should be viewed like firing a BB salvo at a target. Don't just spam away at bow on ships or reversing ships. Watch your target while watching his movement, watch the surrounding situation to predict his next movement and always but always try to get on his sides or in a position where he will turn his side to you.

Fire torp salvos the same way you would fire a broadside shot.

If you work in doing 1,2 and 3 you will get devastating strikes in almost all of your games in the shima. 8km torps work better than 12km in terms of hitting... you might end up with less average damage in total throughout a high number of games but they are more impactful. They are also very lethal to DDs.

Radar:

Learn not to panic with radar. With the new BB AP changes if you dont panic during a russian radar if you are caught bow in just W-S for 25 secs. Most of the time you will get away with 3-5k damage.
Learn to bait radars. With the exception of Minos and Chapayev every other radar you will come across if spotted before hand and those that are behind islands are always known as possible positions. Move into their range in a way that allows you to move away as fast as possible. Bait the radar move out then come back in to either torp the radar ship yourself or spot him for the team.

Shima is perhaps one of the strongest DDs in randoms. No other DDs has the capacity to delete BBs and CAs as easily as the shima most of them need time to farm them with guns or multiple torp salvoes.

 


 

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10 minutes ago, AnotherDuck said:

Because you get far more opportunities to use them than with 8 km or 6.4 km. You're also far less vulnerable to radar and overextending, which improves your surviviability greatly. Besides, it's not like the 12 km torpedoes stop working if you use them at 6 km range. On the other hand, the 8 km torps stop working at retreating enemies and those farther away than 8 km accounting for movement.

That is 100% true but as 12km torpedoes are slower by 9 knots at 67 knots I find they are easier to avoid and it is the speed that makes 8km torpedoes in my opinion more successful in obtaining the kill shot... At 12km yes you can fire close but you have lost the speed... You want to see what happens when I use the 6.4km @ 81 knots... nothing escapes not even DD's.

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7 minutes ago, Spithas said:

Ok more seriously since people have real trouble with simple concepts.

1) The farther away you fire torps at your target the more time there is for anything to happen. Some other ship spotting the torps, a plane spoting them, your target changing course completely etc.

 

The closest you are to your target with ANY DD the better your torp hit ratio will be.

 

2) Torp dispersion at longer ranges is also a problem. If you fire at a target 10+km away then by the time your torps do reach him they will be spread out at their max spread. Which means that at best you might get 1 or 2 connections.

Torp close to ensure high damage salvos.

 

3) Torping should be viewed like firing a BB salvo at a target. Don't just spam away at bow on ships or reversing ships. Watch your target while watching his movement, watch the surrounding situation to predict his next movement and always but always try to get on his sides or in a position where he will turn his side to you.

Fire torp salvos the same way you would fire a broadside shot.

If you work in doing 1,2 and 3 you will get devastating strikes in almost all of your games in the shima. 8km torps work better than 12km in terms of hitting... you might end up with less average damage in total throughout a high number of games but they are more impactful. They are also very lethal to DDs.

Radar:

Learn not to panic with radar. With the new BB AP changes if you dont panic during a russian radar if you are caught bow in just W-S for 25 secs. Most of the time you will get away with 3-5k damage.
Learn to bait radars. With the exception of Minos and Chapayev every other radar you will come across if spotted before hand and those that are behind islands are always known as possible positions. Move into their range in a way that allows you to move away as fast as possible. Bait the radar move out then come back in to either torp the radar ship yourself or spot him for the team.

Shima is perhaps one of the strongest DDs in randoms. No other DDs has the capacity to delete BBs and CAs as easily as the shima most of them need time to farm them with guns or multiple torp salvoes.

 


 

My kind of Shima player.

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2 hours ago, Migantium_Mashum said:

The games starts and as a DD you head to a cap zone.. Always watching the mini map as you go.. you approach a cap always watching the cap icon because if it goes red the enemy has got there first. The minute an enemy ship is highlighted it triggers the part of your brain, if correctly wired, that allows you to remember where the ship is and more importantly which way it is heading.. If it is a radar ship you then put your crosshair on it press F3 and stay out if it's range.. Obviously as a Beta Tester you already know the range of radar don't you?

 

 

52 minutes ago, Migantium_Mashum said:

@BrusilovX still didn't say there was a Radar ship in the cap, I was talking about spotting. Didn't even speak about Radar Cruisers in caps. You're clutching at straws.

 

You have 11 other ships to spot also remember so they can pick up radar ships from their LOS.

Please read the post I've quoted that clearly shows that you did type "if it's a radar ship" and the previous sentence is referring  to entering a cap circle and if it goes red.   I did include this in a previous post but did not show it as a quote from you.

 

Now, please explain how you were not referring to a radar ship in the cap.

 

I'm afraid that it's you that is "clutching at straws" or are just ignoring what you've posted before.

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10 minutes ago, BrusilovX said:

 

Please read the post I've quoted that clearly shows that you did type "if it's a radar ship" and the previous sentence is referring  to entering a cap circle and if it goes red.   I did include this in a previous post but did not show it as a quote from you.

 

Now, please explain how you were not referring to a radar ship in the cap.

 

I'm afraid that it's you that is "clutching at straws" or are just ignoring what you've posted before.

Are you back again? SHOW ME WHERE I SAID RADAR SHIP IN THE CAP..or just go away because you're boring the pants off me...

 

Please also note after the word first there is a full stop.

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12 minutes ago, Migantium_Mashum said:

That is 100% true but as 12km torpedoes are slower by 9 knots at 67 knots I find they are easier to avoid and it is the speed that makes 8km torpedoes in my opinion more successful in obtaining the kill shot... At 12km yes you can fire close but you have lost the speed... You want to see what happens when I use the 6.4km @ 81 knots... nothing escapes not even DD's.

So what are you going to do if you have to get to within 6-7 km of a radar cruiser or two to get close enough to hit something? If you bait the radar you give out your position, so you lack the surprise. Or if it's a retreating ship? And what are your opportunities if there are enemy DDs between you and larger enemy ships?

 

It's simply a matter of whether you want a few sparse opportunities to affect the game, or numerous more.

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33 minutes ago, Migantium_Mashum said:

Are you back again? SHOW ME WHERE I SAID RADAR SHIP IN THE CAP..or just go away because you're boring the pants off me...

 

Read the paragraph I quoted.  Again, if you can't understand what you've typed please get someone to read it to you and explain what it means.

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2 hours ago, AnotherDuck said:

So what are you going to do if you have to get to within 6-7 km of a radar cruiser or two to get close enough to hit something? If you bait the radar you give out your position, so you lack the surprise. Or if it's a retreating ship? And what are your opportunities if there are enemy DDs between you and larger enemy ships?

 

It's simply a matter of whether you want a few sparse opportunities to affect the game, or numerous more.

Your comment makes sense so I cannot knock it, however it's down to the individual game..

If the team is on the ball a spotted Radar Cruiser is slaughtered by the big boys (BB's) or chased away so that is is not effective.

If the team isn't on the ball then having 12km or 8km torpedoes means nothing because once radar lights up the torpedoes are there for all to see the only difference is that 8km are faster.. I can cap, I always spot, I hunt but if the team refuses to kill Radar Cruisers chances are the DD's in the team are picked off one by one eventually...

As a Shimakaze player I know within 6 minutes if the team is working together or not... if not I do what I can to secure caps, spot and kill as many ships as i can... it is the job of a DD after all.

But, I am almost never detected by radar or Hydro and if I am I already know where my escape route is.....

 

Also, if the enemy ship is retreating it poses no threat does it?

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1 hour ago, AnotherDuck said:

So what are you going to do if you have to get to within 6-7 km of a radar cruiser or two to get close enough to hit something? If you bait the radar you give out your position, so you lack the surprise. Or if it's a retreating ship? And what are your opportunities if there are enemy DDs between you and larger enemy ships?

 

It's simply a matter of whether you want a few sparse opportunities to affect the game, or numerous more.

I have 72% solo Win Rate with my Shimakaze. Knowing you are there simply because you baited the radar isn't an issue... knowing from what exact angle a torp and how close i am is still a mystery to them.

If there any enemy DDs between the shima and its targets i usually keep the DDs spotted... rpf torp them... or shoot them down... depending on the exact situation each time.

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1 hour ago, Migantium_Mashum said:

If the team is on the ball a spotted Radar Cruiser is slaughtered by the big boys (BB's) or chased away so that is is not effective.

If. And even if they are, it takes time to kill or drive away a radar cruiser. Time you lose being effective.

 

1 hour ago, Migantium_Mashum said:

If the team isn't on the ball then having 12km or 8km torpedoes means nothing because once radar lights up the torpedoes are there for all to see the only difference is that 8km are faster..

Radar doesn't light up torpedoes, so I'm not sure what you're talking about here.

 

1 hour ago, Migantium_Mashum said:

I can cap, I always spot, I hunt but if the team refuses to kill Radar Cruisers chances are the DD's in the team are picked off one by one eventually...

So if you've got enough range, you can torp the radar cruisers yourself. If not, you have to go a good bit into radar range to do so, which means you now have to make a trade.

 

1 hour ago, Migantium_Mashum said:

As a Shimakaze player I know within 6 minutes if the team is working together or not... if not I do what I can to secure caps, spot and kill as many ships as i can... it is the job of a DD after all.

But, I am almost never detected by radar or Hydro and if I am I already know where my escape route is.....

This doesn't change depending on torpedoes.

 

1 hour ago, Migantium_Mashum said:

Also, if the enemy ship is retreating it poses no threat does it?

So because a ship is retreating it can't fire its guns, despite easily being in range?

 

1 hour ago, Spithas said:

Knowing you are there simply because you baited the radar isn't an issue... knowing from what exact angle a torp and how close i am is still a mystery to them.

The moment they know you're there they're going to act differently than if they don't know you're there. It's far easier to hit someone who doesn't know you're there. It's very easy to test as well. Launch torpedoes while you've not been detected for a while, and launch torpedoes after which you shoot your guns. Those two scenarios will have different hit rates.

 

Your own winrate doesn't matter unless you compare to your own winrate with the other torps.

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I've played around with both set of torps and I think I prefer the 12km torps somewhat over 8km, due to the increased versatility. 8km torps works great in some games, less so in others. 12km seems more reliant.

 

I'd be interested in seeing what @Spithas prefers, given the very good WR.

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5 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

So problem is (espeically with the Shima), that those torpedos have other stats too high, so they're lacking in a good concealment. Buffing the torpedos with better concleament wouldn't work, they need an overall change. Less damage, but more concealment for example.

No. There are other nations' DDs that have weaker but stealthier torps - if that's what you want, you should just go for these other nations. IJN torps might use a little buff but not a change that just changes their character to match that of other nations. The harder to land but making a bigger boom torpedoes are a national flavor of IJN DDs and it shouldn't be discarded.

In fact, the basic stats of individual torps seem to be as they should right now (excluding 20km Shima torps that should be removed). They are hard to land but they deal a lot of damage - it would be nice to see some slight buffs going in a different direction though. Rather than meddling with what a torp does, it would be better to see some buffs affecting:

a) torpedo reload (it takes REALLY long - I think a slightly shorter waiting time would make the hard-to-land torps less frustrating without creating a torpedo soup)

b) the hulls themselves (some of them lack in concealment that really should be their another strong point - and they could do with a bit more nimbleness to not be such sitting ducks if they do end up ambushed/spotted/radared)

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It seems like anotherduck is the smoll master of the sushikazi.

 

Although i have to admit in my charles martel i was genuinely surprised in which i could detect the torps from without hydro.

 

I actually thought i had hydro on but then i've only had 33 games in tier 8 so my experience is very limited.

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On 1/11/2019 at 5:59 PM, Verblonde said:

Is it worth recalling that it's probably just as well that torps (in general) are relatively straightforward for a competent player - so, not me then - to avoid? When one considers the amount of damage even one Shima torp (say) can do, can you imagine the uproar if they were significantly harder to spot?

 

Personally, I'd be happy if they were just on par with other torps in terms of spotting...

 

To return to the original question, anyone who isn't applying at least a bit of WASD witchcraft will get blapped and deserve it, whereas working around people trying to avoid your torps is (I suspect - still working on this aspect) where the skill with DDs comes in?

 

There'd be an uproar simply because the tomatoes play BBs. Look at the fricking game queue at 8-9-10, 30 BBs 4 CAs 6 DDs etc. BBs are too hard to sink IMO, I think the problem is that they can turn to quickly and change speed to quickly. 

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Am 11.1.2019 um 17:44, Amaterasu_Regale sagte:

No point of having torpedo boats if a troglodyte in a Battleship can press WASD once and dodge all of them.

 

 

Not my experience so far :etc_hide_turtle:

maximum was 24 torp hits on 88 dropped with kagero, which was an exception, but on average i get between 8 and 10 torp hits per game on ijn DDs

might be dropping wrong if enemy can wasd around or (even worse) through your drop

 

if you like i can provide some replays for showing some dropping schemes ? Not representative number of games, but seems I do something right according to torp drops.

pm me if u like to see some replays, but most important: have fun, it's only a game! when there is fun, you will enjoy and there will soon be some improvement! o7

 

592337768_kagerobaseline.thumb.png.7dd8020d176ebe74f1770cac023e6e42.png

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On 1/11/2019 at 9:24 AM, Verblonde said:

Incidentally, I had a quick look earlier - most of my torp hit rates (although rubbish), seem to fall in a similar range, regardless of nation; Shima is one of the worst though...

Yup. You are launching 15 for the hits rather than 8 to 10 so that is reasonable. My Pab Asian hit rates are a few percent higher than other lines, which is to be expected. I've been playing Gearing with the Fletcher torps and I find that I'm launching a lot more blind salvos than I do with Pan Asians, with the result that my hit chance is lower but damage is similar due to the blind hits. As most of what I am hitting is BBs, I should do it more with the Pan Asian line as well. 

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...my fav IJN destroyer allways hassssssss been the mighty Shima(X)...and about torps...lol....detectible ya say???...lol...15x torps...tactically launched up-close?...lol...yeah..they see em coming...BUT real priority question is: can they avoid em???...lol...NO!!!!...simple as that...yeah?...funny topic...lol...yeah

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