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ThatOneDidntGoIn

Is the Daring as bad as the Jutland?

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Are the Darings guns as utterly useless as the Jutlands?

 

The Lightning had great guns, but this ship. I can land a hundred hits and maybe 1 in 10 does damage.
I just landed 33 hits on a fletcher and only 7 did damage. 66 on a jean Bart. 0 Damage.

If the Daring is just as bad I wont bother for a while and go for another ship.

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[SN4K]
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Not at all Daring has fantastic guns. Take IFHE. Their AP is really good as well, when used correctly.

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[BABBY]
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The guns have very low caliber, thus the HE penetration values are lacking. You need IFHE for your captain as soon as possible.

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User Error in this case, as Shade pointed out you really need IFHE on these. Or use mostly AP until you have it.

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Jutland and Daring have excellent guns, the calibre is small so the HE is useless without IFHE captain skill.

The AP however has special performance rules and it's devastating if you can aim.

 

Learn the ship and learn to shoot issue I'm afraid.

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1 hour ago, ThatOneDidntGoIn said:

Are the Darings guns as utterly useless as the Jutlands?

Jutland is one of the best DDs in the game (heal, hydro, fast guns, good concealment...)  - but she needs 19p skipper with IFHE... IMHO better than slow/big bricky Daring...

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1 minute ago, Max_Kammerer said:

Jutland is one of the best DDs in the game (heal, hydro, fast guns, good concealment...)  - but she needs 19p skipper with IFHE.

That's quite, er, situational praise, isn't it? How does she do with a captain below 14pts, which would have to choose between CE and IFHE? 

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1 minute ago, invicta2012 said:

That's quite, er, situational praise, isn't it? How does she do with a captain below 14pts, which would have to choose between CE and IFHE? 

14p captain is minimum (CE+IFHE) - but IMHO playing the T9 DD with captain with less than 14p is war crime :) 

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3 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

That's quite, er, situational praise, isn't it? How does she do with a captain below 14pts, which would have to choose between CE and IFHE? 

Load AP.

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5 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

That's quite, er, situational praise, isn't it? How does she do with a captain below 14pts, which would have to choose between CE and IFHE? 

How would you have a cap below 14 points at that tier? Please do tell...

 

Also, what seiranko said, use AP and aim a bit higher.

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Just now, Juanx said:

How would you have a cap below 14 points at that tier? Please do tell...

Skipping Tiers with Free XP, using two captains when levelling a line, not having the cash to change the skills of a DD captain that didn't need IFHE into one that did? It's not too far fetched.

 

What's being said here is that the decrease in gun calibre on the Tier IX and X RN DDs is a bit unusual and, really, they suck if you don't have IFHE. 

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I'll go out on a hunch that OP doesn't have IFHE specced on his Jutland captain, nor that he's overly familiar with HE penetration mechanics and the usual hull armour thresholds. In that regard, the Daring sharing the same gun caliber will perform just the same as the Jutland.

 

 

If you look up HE penetration however, you'll find that with 114mm guns your HE only penetrates 18mm or less armour (can only penetrate armour thinner than 1/6 of its caliber diameter; rounded) and if HE doesn't penetrate, it won't deal damage.

Considering that DD hulls at that tier will be 19mm thick, you will fail to penetrate and thus damage them. Only part on hightier DDs you can still damage with that amount of HE pen is their superstructure, though that's not exactly a large target area when shooting at DDs (which explains your sporadic damage count).

IFHE increases your HE penetration by 30%, which gives those 114mm guns 25mm HE pen (24,7, rouded up), which means it will penetrate 24mm armour or less. That is enough to penetrate DD hulls.

 

Once IFHE is on your captain, you'll find that the good gun dpm on the Jutland is quite formidable.

 

 

 

As mentioned, for further reading on mechanics you want to look at:

  • HE penetration (1/6 caliber diameter default, some exceptions with 1/4 caliber diamater)
  • Armour thresholds (19mm, 25mm, 32mm being the most common; couple more thresholds in between relevant for individual calibers regarding HE penetration and AP overmatching)
  • Overmatch mechanic when we're already here and if in doubt

 

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1 hour ago, invicta2012 said:

That's quite, er, situational praise, isn't it? How does she do with a captain below 14pts, which would have to choose between CE and IFHE? 

 

 Quite simple, use the AP ammunition, my 19 point captain does not have IFHE and the guns work well, I only use HE to set fires.

Aim high on BB's and cruisers and you maul the superstructure with AP, you can chew up DD's very nicely with AP of course. Just be willing to swap ammo a bit depending on situation.

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4 hours ago, BeauNidl3 said:

 

 Quite simple, use the AP ammunition, my 19 point captain does not have IFHE and the guns work well, I only use HE to set fires.

Aim high on BB's and cruisers and you maul the superstructure with AP, you can chew up DD's very nicely with AP of course. Just be willing to swap ammo a bit depending on situation.

Am thinking along the same lines, might give this a try later on. Basicly you could forego IFHE if you are facing "less smart players" a lot. They will give you broadsides or not angle enough so you can wreck them with AP. If you however encounter a DD that knows his game your HE will do nothing, same as your OP. 

So I don't know if it's worth switching IFHE for RL. 

@DFens_666 has the same quaestion.

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5 hours ago, Juanx said:

How would you have a cap below 14 points at that tier? Please do tell...

 

Also, what seiranko said, use AP and aim a bit higher.

Because you kept all the DDs in the line up to that point and left the commanders in place.

 

I knew this line was coming and bought a lot of RN Dasha Perova commanders beforehand, giving myself the leg up.

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6 hours ago, Max_Kammerer said:

14p captain is minimum (CE+IFHE) - but IMHO playing the T9 DD with captain with less than 14p is war crime :) 

Problem is now that we have a mix between veteran players (forumites etc) that knows this and are mixed with players that might choose the RN Navy to start with. 

The wiki have info about captain skills etc but not captain usage tactics, transfer tactics, recommended level at various tiers etc. Also us veterans may have more elite XP to  use and are ready to do that.

 

We see the consequences here in various debates but sometimes fail to see the reason behind: that you really need to invest large amounts of time to learn all mechanics. I still learn but invest rather huge amount of time here.

Fortunately I could start with 14 p on Jutland through elite XP in store and I find the DD very enjoyable. I also used the tactics from @Hedgehog1963 and stored/bought/eliteXPed RN captains to be able to start in randoms on 10p on every DD. But I am no new player and could do that.   

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[JRM]
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Both Daring and Jutlands guns are fine, if you are ob the lazy side take ifhe, if you are not sAP does a pretty decent job

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3 minutes ago, Gnirf said:

Problem is now that we have a mix between veteran players (forumites etc) that knows this and are mixed with players that might choose the RN Navy to start with. 

The wiki have info about captain skills etc but not captain usage tactics, transfer tactics, recommended level at various tiers etc. Also us veterans may have more elite XP to  use and are ready to do that.

 

We see the consequences here in various debates but sometimes fail to see the reason behind: that you really need to invest large amounts of time to learn all mechanics. I still learn but invest rather huge amount of time here.

Fortunately I could start with 14 p on Jutland through elite XP in store and I find the DD very enjoyable.

That's why we'll be seeing thread like OP's popping up with some regularity. The sad thing is - some of the less informed players won't even come here to ask OP's question and will instead just

a) assume that the DDs in question are utter crap

b) (extreme cases) not even realize that they are doing no damage or will be convinced that the enemies cheat or something

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4 minutes ago, eliastion said:

That's why we'll be seeing thread like OP's popping up with some regularity. The sad thing is - some of the less informed players won't even come here to ask OP's question and will instead just

a) assume that the DDs in question are utter crap

b) (extreme cases) not even realize that they are doing no damage or will be convinced that the enemies cheat or something

Yes, and I applaud OPs question, regardless of the language, because it can be seen as a understandable frustration. If the OP now sees the light and act accordingly it is good. But as you say many does not.   

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Just yesterday I had a player in a Jutland on my team who had trouble sinking a 500 Hitpoint Z-23....

Some people have no clue what they are playing.

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[THESO]
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Get IFHE if you want to keep shooting HE. Or just shoot the super effective AP....

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1 hour ago, fallenkezef said:

Daring has excellent AP for hunting DDs, it's even good against most cruisers.

Do you use the AP ammunition against other DD:s even when those are angled toward you?

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As others have posted it may just be down to the OP not having a captain with IFHE as a skill.    I presume that this may be caused because it was possible to get the Lightning TVIII DD in-game via a mission from a box so the lower tiers were skipped or of course they may have free XP'd a lot of the way..   Usually, when you get to TIX you would have at least a 14 point captain to be able to spec IFHE in the build (except where a line has been split).

 

I was lucky to have the Lightning and Cossack at the same time and had enough elite captain points to take my 14 point captain (from the Gallant) ad make them a 19 point captain.   Until I unlocked the Jutland they had RPF but that;s been changed to IFHE.

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10 hours ago, invicta2012 said:

Skipping Tiers with Free XP, using two captains when levelling a line, not having the cash to change the skills of a DD captain that didn't need IFHE into one that did? It's not too far fetched.

 

What's being said here is that the decrease in gun calibre on the Tier IX and X RN DDs is a bit unusual and, really, they suck if you don't have IFHE. 

 

Erm, so you skip the game, and its somehow someone elses fault?

 

What is being said here is that the ships are just fine, its user error...

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