khabarovsk khaba, power creeped hard with overpen mechanics?

[daimyo_willem]

hello everyone!

 

i just played my way to the tier 10 khaba and it's disappointing to be honest, i feel like it is much weaker than the Tashkent at about everything.

now i dont want to come across as just a loudmouth that yells: BUFF KHABA BUFF KHABA NOOOOWWWWW, but it does kinda feel like khabarovsk should be rebalanced.

 

let me explain. (will compare tier 9 with tier 10 because we can all agree tier 10 need to be better than tier 9)

 

1 disclaimer which people might be heavily divided on!

overpen mechanics, since khaba has some parts with 50mm armor AP can arm itself on those parts meaning they will do full pen dmg.

 

                      Tashkent:                                                              Khabarovsk:

HP:                                                              21.800                     22.500

 

guns:                                                           130x2 x3                  130x2 x4

reload:                                                         5s                              5s

HE:                                                               1.900                        1.900

AP:                                                                2.600                       2.600

range:                                                           12.7km                    11.2

fire chance:                                                 8%                             8%

torpedoes:                                                   3x3                           2x5   

                                                                      8 km                         6 km

                                                                      60 knots                   53 knots

                                                                      15.100                      19.500
detection:                                                    1.2km                        0.6km

reaction time when spotted is:                7.69 seconds           4.35 seconds

reload:                                                          69s                            127s

 

AA, going to leave it out as they both don't have DEF AA and will shoot down some planes when lucky but that's about it with both.

 

maneuverability:

speed                                                            42.5 knots                43 knots

turning circle:                                               730 meter                 760 meter

rudder shift:                                                  8.5 seconds              11.1 seconds

 

concealment:                                                9.4 km                       10

air concealment                                           4.95 km                      4.95

 

stats wise they differ but its giving and taking.

the guns stay the same but you get an extra turret at tier 10 which is nice.

you pay for that in a massive range decrease of 1.5km, now this also hurts when it comes to increasing range with captain skill as it is a percentage bonus so the more range u have the more u get extra.

 

the torpedoes should now be considered as a island hopping and ambushing set thanks to their range, yes they are stealthy but 6km range with a base concealment of 10km... good luck. 
but i hear you say, tashkent has 9.4km and 8 km range so he also has a hard time, and to that i answer: the rudder shift time,

tashkent can easily get away with concealment in upgrade slot instead of rudder shift, khaba can not. 11.1 seconds is simply too long too effectively dodge shells and especially torpedo bombers, also take in consideration that tashkent can engage at much further ranges than khaba making it even easier to dodge as the shells take longer to reach you.

and then to come back to the overpen mechanics:

in my opinion this heavily impacts the khabarovsk as 1 pen will hurt more than other dd's receiving 3 overpens.
DD"s have gotten a lot more powerful with this mechanic, however the khaba feels power-creeped by it, as it will still eat pens.

(the extra armour will work versus low caliber and some cruiser HE yes, but my opinion is that what is gained there is heavily outweighed by taking full AP pens, seeing as you can heal less from AP dmg taken than from HE dmg taken.

 

at this point i feel that the tashkent is a lot more powerful than the khabarovsk,

khaba has 1 turret more but thaskent will outrange him heavily with 1.7km more when build for it.

the hp difference is rather minimal, also when u take into account that both ships have a heal with a maximum of 4 charges.
it is easier to get a better conceal, 8.2km and still having a better rudder shift than khaba with 0.6s difference.

torpedoes which will be more useful thanks to better range, better reload en more in sync with your conceal.

has 0.5knots less speed than khaba, yeah not really a massive difference here.

better MM as a tier 9.

 

now as stated in the beginning it is not a post for BUFF KHABA BUFF KHABA.

it is meant as a comparison when taking into consideration the overpen mechanics.

 

when comparing to the other tier 10 grozovoi i don't feel like i need to explain much,

has, repair, smoke, heal, DEF AA and engine boost. khaba has repair, heal or smoke and engine boost.

yes grozo has 1 consumable less but that is still 3 with superintendent.

better torps, better gun range, better conceal.

the only thing i can come up with is 1 less turret everything else is much better, especially AA and conceal.

armour, in my opinion is better as you can't take full AP pen dmg, remember, grozo also gets a heal!

 

i am interested in your views on this thread!

[SV_Kompresor]

While I do agree that khaba is underwhelming compared to tashkent and is more of a sidegrade than an upgrade, can you please stop calling the overpen change a nerf? It can't really be a (notable) nerf if it doesn't change anything directly and only affects it extremely little indirectly. Like those that claimed that battleships were buffed because they could still use secondaries in smoke (which they always could) without a concealment debuff when the main guns recieved it. 

 

IMO khaba needs 8km torps (or a heal + smoke variant). That's about as far as I'd go...6km at tier 10 is practically useless. Now we just wait for the "but you're not supposed to use torpedoes on a khaba" people.

[ColonelPete]

 

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20181222/eu_2month/average_ship.html

[SV_Kompresor]

2 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

 

One day I'm gonna make you a colonelpete's seal of disapproval. It'll have the shape of an excel table.

[daimyo_willem]

@domen3 i see your points, as it feels like massive nerf it technically should be labeled as a prime example of powercreep?

[daimyo_willem]

@ColonelPete

amount of battles and average of player skill should also be taken into account?

[ForlornSailor]

14 minutes ago, domen3 said:

One day I'm gonna make you a colonelpete's seal of disapproval. It'll have the shape of an excel table. 

 

I lol´ed so hard. Thx for making my day!

[DFens_666]

14 minutes ago, domen3 said:

One day I'm gonna make you a colonelpete's seal of disapproval. It'll have the shape of an excel table.

 

 

 

[RUSSIANBlAS]

Khaba used to be OP, it used to have normal DD rudder shift speeds and 10 km torps.

 

Now it actually needs some skill to play well.

 

The ship is fine where it is in the game, it's played like a mid range spamming Cruiser mostly. Flank with that speed and profit. 

 

Also its far stronger than Trashkan, look at it's armour model 

[ColonelPete]

5 minutes ago, daimyo_willem said:

@ColonelPete

amount of battles and average of player skill should also be taken into account?

Player skill should be realtively equal on all silver ships (except Daring and maybe Haragumo as they are quite new). Since this are the two months stats, the battle numbers are high enough. And no, the one week stats do not look much different.

[SV_Kompresor]

21 minutes ago, Negativvv said:

Also its far stronger than Trashkan, look at it's armour model 

Honestly? An extra gun and armor are the only two things khaba is deffinitely better at than tashkent0. I found tash to be a much more enjoyable experience even in tier 10 battles because of: better stealth, torpedoes, turret arcs and ship size.

[RUSSIANBlAS]

8 minutes ago, domen3 said:

Honestly? An extra gun and armor are the only two things khaba is deffinitely better at than tashkent0. I found tash to be a much more enjoyable experience even in tier 10 battles because of: better stealth, torpedoes, turret arcs and ship size.

The extra gun is a 25% DPM hike.

 

And the armour trolls the enemy when used correctly, of course some it is RNG but it can even bounce BB AP. 

 

In a straight up gun battle a properly used Khaba would likely farm a Tash pretty easily.

[daimyo_willem]

2 minutes ago, Negativvv said:

The extra gun is a 25% DPM hike.

 

And the armour trolls the enemy when used correctly, of course some it is RNG but it can even bounce BB AP. 

 

In a straight up gun battle a properly used Khaba would likely farm a Tash pretty easily.

 

in a straight up gun fight yes, but the point is that the tashkent can do so much more and is so much more flexibel. khaba is just a underpowered when compared to tashkent in other areas, and dont start with groz.

[ColonelPete]

The game is not a 1v1 game.

 

I find the very situational torps from the Khaba annoying, too. I prefered the old 8km torps and they can be very useful in the late game.

[Linkaex]

I'm doing fine in mine. Even tho I'm on a losing streak with him (Russian ships are male right?) My damage output and survivability are still increasing. 

[RUSSIANBlAS]

7 minutes ago, daimyo_willem said:

 

in a straight up gun fight yes, but the point is that the tashkent can do so much more and is so much more flexibel. khaba is just a underpowered when compared to tashkent in other areas, and dont start with groz.

Well for WG  to nerf a Russian ship shows how bad it used to be... 

 

It's specialised towards one specific role so it can't do what a normal DD does no. The Grozo is the all round RU DD for T10 if that's what you're after. 

 

Just a shame you never experienced the original Khaba as it was stupidly OP and WG left it alone for a long time.

[ollonborre]

The Kebab feels mostly fine tbh. As others have said in the thread that armor is both a saving grace and a death sentence in its own right, but most of the times you will survive thanks to that HE shattering and AP bounce armor strip.

 

Also the gunpower is still great and speed is amazing. And you do have that heal as an option. Not counting the Harugomo, the Kebab sits in its gunboat place quite nicely.

[Bear__Necessities]

Khaba. A ship in which it’s possible to earn a witherer and arsonist within 5 mins of a game starting (which I’ve done on several occasions)  needs a buff?

 

Nah. Just finally needs skill to get the most out of it, rather than being able spam HE from stealth, never be hit due to great turning, along with 10km torps. 

 

They finally balance her. She’s fine as she is.

[RAYvenMP]

i think they first gutted the torps, what was kinda reasonable, followed by rudder shift increase. then the range decrease to 11.2, making AFT absolutely mandatory and then killed it with the BB AP change (Kaba and Haragumo were excluded)

Kaba is still a strong ship, but before you could go in and help friendly DD at caps, now you barely win DD gun fights because enemy team is getting full AP pens on you while the other DD is not.

Release of new cruiser lines and coal/FXP cruisers did not help either. RN DDs have super strong AP, smoke on demand and heal - also not easy prey for Kaba.

 

all in all, Kaba was power creeped to do ONLY what she does best - harass lone BBs or out-of-position DDs. Thats all fine, until you load into game with only 1-2 DDs per side on domination...

 

kaba may be the most hard-nerfed ship in WoWs history by now, and requires large amount of skill and enemy mistakes to do well. And even doing well with her can have much smaller impact in battle than other DDs have.

I have unfortunately unlocked her only after all the nerfs, so was bit of struggle to find out how can she be that OP, but was doin half-decent - untill the BB AP change that pretty much buffed all the DDs except Kaba/Haru - but Haru can work around the meta with 6.2 conceal and smoke (and optional AFT/Range mod if you feel like), but Kaba cant.

 

i think WG will buff her at some point tho, all those camping BB snipers need another lesson of map awareness. 

[RenamedUser_92906789]

Khaba currently is a solo ship.

 

It brings nothin to the table team wise.

Sure its a powerfull gunboat, but everything needed for team play is missing. The stealth, the torps, rudder, armour (I consider it a con).... 

 

Its useless in the current meta and people hate to see it in their team, especially in domination mode. For me it only works when I solo play on standard mode. Most of time it's just collecting dust in my port.

[LemonadeWarriorITA]

There are more T10s that are a downgrade; Gearing, YueYang, Z52, Harugumo imo.

 

The upgrade of going from T9 to T10 with either cruisers or BBs feels much better, where with DDs it is more like meh.

[Animalul2012]

the entire soviet dd line needs buffs(grozovoi doesnt need). dpm buffs and at least 1km concealment buff. look how stupid and broken kitakaze and harugumo are, they pen 32 mm of armor, have insane DPM, 12km torpedoes that can be used unlike the 6km ones and 6.2 concealment! why are these boats getting so good concealment with that amount of firepower? 

but yeah trashkarovsk is faster so it is still OP, this also makes le terrible OP no? but if we buff soviet ships then it is russian bias no? of course it is because players from wows dont have an idea of what true bias looks like, they never meet thinks like obj268v4, defender, is-3a, 430u,907 or 140 all these vehicles make all soviet boats look underpowered. 

but dont worry WG will have theyre revenge with the battleships.

 

something more: if you want to know a little bit how the old khaba was get the henry 4. henry is the new khabarovsk.

[Captain_Bloodless]

11 hours ago, daimyo_willem said:

hello everyone!

 

i just played my way to the tier 10 khaba and it's disappointing to be honest, i feel like it is much weaker than the Tashkent at about everything.

 

Khaba is last T10 i unlocked.

Tashkent was really strong, dunno why ppl called it trashcan.

Khaba has to be played on it's own way, i play with DE and 9.7km detection.

I find it really fun to play it has only problem when enemy team has 2 players with brain and let's say they out spot u with shima/gearing bodyguarded by hindy/zao.

For any other situation i find it borderline OP and i can't imagine how OP it was 1 year ago.

[Affeks]

Why would I put myself in a situation where I have to pick between smoke and heal when I can have both?!

 

Jutland, Kidd and Grozo showed me what a real DD with heal is like. Khaba is just a cruiser without the alpha threat.

[Shaka_D]

12 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

 

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20181222/eu_2month/average_ship.html

Very interesting indeed, but are the sample sizes for each the same or at least sifficient to warrant this side by side comparison? I can't seem to find this info on the site. Help an old fool out here.