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AmiralPotato

Are there any open water cruisers ?

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Hi there,

After some happy potatoing with german BBs and more recently russian DDs, I am currently trying to figure what to do with cruisers.

Being terrible at the island-hugging playstyle, I wondered which cruisers might be played more in open water, and how.

Any advice appreciated, low tier, high tier, premium or tech tree, anything :p

Thanks,

Potato

 

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18 minutes ago, AmiralPotato said:

Any advice appreciated, low tier, high tier, premium or tech tree, anything

If you take the japanese cruisers: T8 and T9 are especially squishy, so broadsiding can be your death, and even angleing can take 1/3 to 1/2 of the HP. There citadell can be also pretty punishing, so learning how to angle against enemies is a must ;)

While the german cruisers are a bit more tanky

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Kronstadt for sure, though it's getting removed in a couple weeks. I'm sure Alaska will be similar. With slow turret traverse, large size, subpar turning and no torps, they're definitely more suited for open-water that most other CAs.

 

Graf Spee is also a kind of battlecruiser-type thing where you need to flank enemies to pen them, but the deck armor is suspect. It is more stealthy though. Honestly it's not a great ship, the guns and ammo let it down. Fun and unique though.

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I'd say the most consistent open-water tree is the French one.

 

The Charles Martel is FANTASTIC. I basically seek a part of a map with maximal open water and space to roam. Kite away if necessary, close within near concealment range if it feels safe. You have the speed, you have the guns, and you have the agility to evade shots.

 

It's not the easiest way to play a cruiser, but it's far more rewarding than sitting behind an island, or in smoke.

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2 hours ago, ColonelPete said:
  • IJN
  • RU
  • KM

France? 

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4 hours ago, AmiralPotato said:

Are there any open water cruisers ?

Like, all non-US CAs?

Presumably also most of non-US / non-RN CLs?

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6 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

If you take the japanese cruisers: T8 and T9 are especially squishy, so broadsiding can be your death, and even angleing can take 1/3 to 1/2 of the HP. There citadell can be also pretty punishing, so learning how to angle against enemies is a must ;)

While the german cruisers are a bit more tanky

In Mogami and ibuki you don't have to learn to angle, you have to learn to dodge. Something like an Atago, Myoko, Zao could get away with angling if shells strike the reinforced deck, but 25 mm on Mogami will not bounce much unless you are tanking Lyons and Fusos, while the Ibuki will just eat a lot of normal pens instead.

Something like German cruisers need to learn how to angle, though even then the amount of BBs they can tank before Hindenburg is limited.

Broadsiding is the death of any cruiser though.

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13 hours ago, AmiralPotato said:

Hi there,

After some happy potatoing with german BBs and more recently russian DDs, I am currently trying to figure what to do with cruisers.

Being terrible at the island-hugging playstyle, I wondered which cruisers might be played more in open water, and how.

Any advice appreciated, low tier, high tier, premium or tech tree, anything :p

Thanks,

Potato

 

The French CL’s, from tier 8, are open water kiters. Also the IJN’s cruisers are basically open water flankers. 

The Henri and the Zao excel at that and are very powerful. 

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IJN

France

KM

Debatable: RU

 

IJN is all about high alpha for both HE and Torps. Out of the open water cruisers they have the best rudder and stealth, but suffer from slow turrets and bad turret layout/firing angles.

 

France boast the best speeds and highest interactivity with consumables by far. Masters of W-D dodging and loves to shoot over islands (for bad and for worse). High citadels and hulls makes them soak an incredible amount of damage if misplayed. Spaced armor on Henri becomes a quite a reliable way of avoiding heavy damage while angled.

 

KM becomes quite sturdy once you reach high tiers, combined with the most reliable DPM they can wreak havoc on frontlines. As for low tier... Ehh youll just have to power through or find a way to love them regardless of their peculiarities.

 

Russians are kind of debatable. While their all good at max range HE spam, you dont get the most out of them unless youre able to use the radar. That often requires you to use islands for partial cover if you want to impact the objectives in the early parts of a match. This is especially true for Moskva who can tank all kinds of damage with no issues. So while they are def mostly open waters cruisers in randoms, they are part of the static cruisers in a competitive setting.

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Thanks a lot, I'll try to sort a bit all the infos

It's true I probably got a biased view of cruisers while focusing on the US ones (line split, cleveland bumped to T8 etc)

 

A few questions:

- for the german AP is supposedly better than HE (except yorck) ?

- I guess you have to look at the armor layout to see if a ship is more suited for angling/dodging ?

- for the dodgy ones like Mogami/Ibuki, would it make sense to put the propulsion mod instead of rudder (slot 4), and actually stop/restart the ship ?

 

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2 minutes ago, AmiralPotato said:

Thanks a lot, I'll try to sort a bit all the infos

It's true I probably got a biased view of cruisers while focusing on the US ones (line split, cleveland bumped to T8 etc)

 

A few questions:

- for the german AP is supposedly better than HE (except yorck) ?

- I guess you have to look at the armor layout to see if a ship is more suited for angling/dodging ?

- for the dodgy ones like Mogami/Ibuki, would it make sense to put the propulsion mod instead of rudder (slot 4), and actually stop/restart the ship ?

 

For Germans, the dpm on HE is usually not great except for Königsberg, Nürnberg and Yorck. That's because the HE shells typically lack damage potential. The AP shell meanwhile typically are light shells with enormous potential. Typically, you have to use HE, unless the enemy gives you some unangled plate to shoot at. If you can make the AP pen though, that's where the real dpm lies. Normally, German HE dpm isn't utterly garbage, but underwhelming to say the least (and Hipper is straight up crap with HE), the reason why the three mentioned ships stay decent is because Königsberg and Nürnberg just spam shells non-stop (7.5 and 6 seconds reload at T6 on 9 guns. Even if the shells do less damage than DD shells, that damage adds up) and Yorck has actually ungimped HE in terms of damage potential (fire chance is still in the dumps).

 

Typically, it is great to know your armour profile and to know what plating can tank what. Every cruiser is better off dodging than tanking though, because superstructure overpens are still damage and if you don't have a repair party, it is still irrecoverable.

 

No, rudder shift is superior. You don't want to stop your ship really, because speed and responsive rudder saves your life. A ship that's just powering up cannot turn properly and gets blapped, as it is entirely predictable. Rudder shift on Mogami is important enough that double rudder Mogami (taking Steering Gears Mod 2 and 3, instead of Concealment Mod 1) is a thing. Personally, I don't use it, but I can see why it is viable.

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Like you, I don't enjoy the island hugging tactic and I'm rubbish at it.

I'm having great fun in the Zao using fire and manouevre at range, with perhaps closing in a bit and using torps when not spotted (the torp firing angle makes you very vulnerable if spotted).

I also find that firing guns then waiting to go dark before firing again helps a lot - whilst keeping moving/angling/kiting. The reds will focus you when you're always spotted due to your firing, but will lose interest (or just fire blind) if you disappear in between salvos.

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On 1/6/2019 at 1:54 PM, Riselotte said:

For Germans, the dpm on HE is usually not great except for Königsberg, Nürnberg and Yorck. That's because the HE shells typically lack damage potential. The AP shell meanwhile typically are light shells with enormous potential. Typically, you have to use HE, unless the enemy gives you some unangled plate to shoot at. If you can make the AP pen though, that's where the real dpm lies. Normally, German HE dpm isn't utterly garbage, but underwhelming to say the least (and Hipper is straight up crap with HE), the reason why the three mentioned ships stay decent is because Königsberg and Nürnberg just spam shells non-stop (7.5 and 6 seconds reload at T6 on 9 guns. Even if the shells do less damage than DD shells, that damage adds up) and Yorck has actually ungimped HE in terms of damage potential (fire chance is still in the dumps).

You also have to factor in that the 1/4 HE pen for Germans really make a huge difference.

 

For Kberg and Nberg it means getting to skip IFHE, which means +3% firechance and +4 skill points. So while the base firechance is lower than most, because it doesnt take the penalty from IFHE its basically in line with the competition.

 

For Roon and Hburg it means effective DPM is as good if not better than the competition as it lets you get through the 38 and 50mm platings on BBs and some others. So against a Montana, GK or Moskva, Hindenburg just beats every other cruiser save for Woosters and Henri with IFHE and MGRB active.

 

For Yorck, Hipper and PE it just gives them some leverage in uptiering, but their DPMs are still in the slumps. 

HE is the bread and butter for KM, but the high AP alpha is more like a bonus that gets to shine a few times per battle.

 

On 1/6/2019 at 1:54 PM, Riselotte said:

No, rudder shift is superior. You don't want to stop your ship really, because speed and responsive rudder saves your life. A ship that's just powering up cannot turn properly and gets blapped, as it is entirely predictable. Rudder shift on Mogami is important enough that double rudder Mogami (taking Steering Gears Mod 2 and 3, instead of Concealment Mod 1) is a thing. Personally, I don't use it, but I can see why it is viable.

Not a 100% true. Anything below 10 sec rudder shift is workable for cruisers. Being responsive isnt the end all for open waters survivability, instead starting the rudder before an enemy fires is much better to begin with. In fact the goal should be to always be unpredictable with turning and then combine W or S to dodge bigger volleys that look dangerous. Dodging with rudder alone doesnt cut it most of the time because of how drifting works, thats why slowing down is very often the way to survive BB volleys. Of course that makes you vulnerable and thats exactly why you want prop mod 2 on most if not all open waters cruisers. It opens up a new dimension of movement that was previously much more dangerous to use.

 

Both Rudder 2 and Prop 2 are good mods, but if the cruiser has 8 sec or less rudder I would say prop is the better choice if used correctly. I would never recommend to use both rudder 2 and 3. Its both overkill 95% of the time and how numbers add up in Wows: increase something twice = more effective, reduce something twice = less effective.

 

Prop 2 + rudder 3 is a great combo outside of competitive, especially for cruisers with slow rudders like Henri and Hburg. 

 

Still, I would strongly advice to try prop 2 on as many cruisers as you can and get used to the slower rudder. Rudder can very often be planned for in advance, but getting back up to speed after dodging torps, dodging a big BB volley or hiding behind an island can only be buffed through this mod.

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6 minutes ago, Affeks said:

You also have to factor in that the 1/4 HE pen for Germans really make a huge difference.

 

For Kberg and Nberg it means getting to skip IFHE, which means +3% firechance and +4 skill points. So while the base firechance is lower than most, because it doesnt take the penalty from IFHE its basically in line with the competition.

The only ones were fire chance is decent.

 

33 minutes ago, Affeks said:

For Roon and Hburg it means effective DPM is as good if not better than the competition as it lets you get through the 38 and 50mm platings on BBs and some others. So against a Montana, GK or Moskva, Hindenburg just beats every other cruiser save for Woosters and Henri with IFHE and MGRB active.

Yeah, but heavy plating is the exception, not the rule. And even then, others just burn these to the ground.

35 minutes ago, Affeks said:

For Yorck, Hipper and PE it just gives them some leverage in uptiering, but their DPMs are still in the slumps. 

Yorck I'd give a passing grade. About on par with other heavy cruisers at T7.

 

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16 hours ago, Riselotte said:

Yeah, but heavy plating is the exception, not the rule. And even then, others just burn these to the ground.

For randoms.. maybe. For competitive it really is the rule.

Pen damage is a lot better than burning so it really is make or break for dealing with those heavy plated targets in a decisive manner.

Both Roon and Hburg have rather high RPMs so they scale better with DE compared to other top tiered CAs. 

Anyway I think you are underestimating the DPM of Hburg and Roons HE. Out of the open water CAs its only Zao that beats it, and Zao has to deal with a low 16.2 km range, usually by skipping reload mod for Range or LM. At which point the Hburg already has more raw DPM than Zao.

 

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5 hours ago, Affeks said:

For randoms.. maybe. For competitive it really is the rule.

For competitive, you don't run into a team full of Moskva/Stalingrad either most of the time. And even then, it's not like other cruisers are hopeless against them.

5 hours ago, Affeks said:

Both Roon and Hburg have rather high RPMs so they scale better with DE compared to other top tiered CAs. 

Anyway I think you are underestimating the DPM of Hburg and Roons HE. Out of the open water CAs its only Zao that beats it, and Zao has to deal with a low 16.2 km range, usually by skipping reload mod for Range or LM. At which point the Hburg already has more raw DPM than Zao.

I wouldn't discount the effects of Zao's accuracy and Henri can boost dpm with MBRB. Anyway, as said earlier, the HE dpm isn't terrible, but you just shouldn't expect too much. The Hindenburg is the sole high tier cruiser of the Germans that actually manages to achieve this though. Hipper dpm is a joke, Prinz Eugen even more of one and the Roon even with MBM3 does not outperform others except vs targets where 50 mm pen counts (which in a T9 competitive format is only Iowa and Missouri). So, Roon certainly should not be overestimated either.

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23 hours ago, Affeks said:

For randoms.. maybe. For competitive it really is the rule.

Pen damage is a lot better than burning so it really is make or break for dealing with those heavy plated targets in a decisive manner.

Both Roon and Hburg have rather high RPMs so they scale better with DE compared to other top tiered CAs. 

Anyway I think you are underestimating the DPM of Hburg and Roons HE. Out of the open water CAs its only Zao that beats it, and Zao has to deal with a low 16.2 km range, usually by skipping reload mod for Range or LM. At which point the Hburg already has more raw DPM than Zao.

 

Zao with LM has 17.5km range. Also with legendary module the dispersion is very tight landing multiple shells a lot of the time even in enemy DDs is commonplace.

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On a side note, I found this (a bit old but hopefully still relevant) thread about the propulsion mod 2:

 

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I have done rather well, on a relative scale, in open water battles in the French cruisers De Grasse and Algérie.

 

The De Grasse is a beautiful ship that shamelessly outperforms her silver sister, La Galissonière, in every way that matters. The Algérie has a pleasantly futuristic design appeal, and though she's a rather large target, her Main battery Reload Booster gives her enough of an edge that she will usually earn her keep in long range gunnery duels.

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Thanks again for all the answers !

I decided to start with the japanese line since I liked Myoko quite a bit.

Now at Mogami/Atago, first battles have been quite nice, but I do have a question.

 

I started with a basic 10pt captain PT / AR / DE / CE, what would you advise for the next skills ?

EL maybe ?

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4 hours ago, AmiralPotato said:

Thanks again for all the answers !

I decided to start with the japanese line since I liked Myoko quite a bit.

Now at Mogami/Atago, first battles have been quite nice, but I do have a question.

 

I started with a basic 10pt captain PT / AR / DE / CE, what would you advise for the next skills ?

EL maybe ?

Maybe Last Stand? You need to kite a lot and a lot shells will land at your rear. 

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5 hours ago, AmiralPotato said:

Thanks again for all the answers !

I decided to start with the japanese line since I liked Myoko quite a bit.

Now at Mogami/Atago, first battles have been quite nice, but I do have a question.

 

I started with a basic 10pt captain PT / AR / DE / CE, what would you advise for the next skills ?

EL maybe ?

 

I started with these exact 10 points.

 

Japanese cruisers are such that actually there's nothing critical remaining. But here's what I went for, for 19 points

- Direction Center (I consider it very powerful for 1 pt)

- Expert Marksman

- Last Stand (debatable, but I feel it's justified on the Japanese cruisers)

- AFT

 

I can't properly recommend AFT right now because BFT/AFT/ManAA are all reworked in 0.8.0 -- is it next week? We'll know more about the new AA skill meta in a few months.

 

 

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If you want to continue using that captain on the Atato and/or use him on Ibuki and Zao SI is a must.

Can never have enough heals.

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