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Re-build 17-point DD commander?

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With the upcoming CV rework and potential skill reset for commanders (or after CB) I am looking into change my commanders builds for destroyers. I currently have similar build on my Fletcher, Z-46 and Akatsuki commanders and all of them are at 17 points at the moment. 

 

The builds are as follows:

1-point: PT or PM

2-points: LS & AR

3-points: TAE & SE

4-points: CE 

with 2 points still waiting. 

 

I saw Notsers video about his new Z-52 build and have paid more attention to the use of the RL skill (playing more CB as well), so my question is if it is worth swapping AR for RL at 17 points or wait with the RL until I have 19 point commanders (have no 19-pointer yet)? 

 

Have never tried RL myself so it is hard to tell how much I will get out of it, but I guess RL is more of a proactive skill and AR a reactive skill by the way they work. 

 

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The advantage of RL is that you know where the enemy ship is. So basically you choose whether you want to fight the enemy DD or not. If you choose to fight you know exactly where to point your guns at.

This kinda nullifies AR.

EDIT: This also means that you know where torpedoes come from etc etc

 

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It may be that AR will give your DDs a few more shots at the enemy whether a DD or a FARCE reworked CV or anything else. That may be worth more in the long run than RL.

I mean, you can 'guess' where enemy ships likely will be & where torps may appear from/going towards. Plus ships eventually appear even with CE, etc. Just use your eyeballs.

& GL hunting the reworked FARCE CVs (lol). I know 'a hunting I will go' those POGs (pieces of garbage).

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http://shipcomrade.com/captcalc/1100000000000011011001000000000119

 

This is my current build and it will stay this way, for random battles I have found this one to be effective enough. Since I tend to only stay around the caps anyways so you can often be pretty sure on where the enemy DD are. And with the hydro-smoke combo you tend to be pretty hard to deal with even if you get jumped.

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Thanks, guess the RL is more worth it in competitive games where you can coordinate the team with information from RL and for random I can go with the current reactive AR before RL builds.

 

6 hours ago, antean said:

GL hunting the reworked FARCE CVs (lol). I know 'a hunting I will go' those POGs

Since I am already running the Defensive AA consumable, to get rid of those planes whenever they show up I will gladly continue my hunt! :cap_rambo:

 

 

5 hours ago, ollonborre said:

And with the hydro-smoke combo you tend to be pretty hard to deal with even if you get jumped.

I guess you speak about a Zerstörer buld? 

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9 hours ago, affie said:

 

I guess you speak about a Zerstörer buld? 

Might be unsure of what you mean. If you get jumped by another DD then using Hydro and smoking up will straight up counter almost any other DD that tries to get near you.

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2 hours ago, ollonborre said:

Might be unsure of what you mean. If you get jumped by another DD then using Hydro and smoking up will straight up counter almost any other DD that tries to get near you.

Zerstörer = German Destroyers, that's what the "Z" stands for. So I guess your build are for a German destroyer? 

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11 minutes ago, affie said:

Zerstörer = German Destroyers, that's what the "Z" stands for. So I guess your build are for a German destroyer? 

Oh well that I knew, I just assumed it was obvious that it was a german DD build I linked due to the topic of the thread. Never mind I can't read.

 

But yes that is the build I run on the Z-52, and it is mainly aimed at torping and cap contesting. I also run the hydro mod for extented duration. This is purely personal preference but I found it to be pretty fun to have nearly 3 minutes of hydro. The downside is that it becomes slightly harder to sync your hydro to your smoke cooldown but there are ways to work around that.

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On 12/29/2018 at 4:30 PM, affie said:

With the upcoming CV rework and potential skill reset for commanders (or after CB) I am looking into change my commanders builds for destroyers. I currently have similar build on my Fletcher, Z-46 and Akatsuki commanders and all of them are at 17 points at the moment.   Redtube Beeg Spankbang

 

The builds are as follows:

1-point: PT or PM

2-points: LS & AR

3-points: TAE & SE

4-points: CE 

with 2 points still waiting. 

 

I saw Notsers video about his new Z-52 build and have paid more attention to the use of the RL skill (playing more CB as well), so my question is if it is worth swapping AR for RL at 17 points or wait with the RL until I have 19 point commanders (have no 19-pointer yet)? 

 

Have never tried RL myself so it is hard to tell how much I will get out of it, but I guess RL is more of a proactive skill and AR a reactive skill by the way they work. 

 

The advantage of RL is that you know where the enemy ship is. So basically you choose whether you want to fight the enemy DD or not. If you choose to fight you know exactly where to point your guns at.
 

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I think in the current state of the game RL is a lot less useful than before because of all these planes spotting DDs all the time anyway.

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On 12/29/2018 at 2:30 PM, affie said:

With the upcoming CV rework and potential skill reset for commanders (or after CB) I am looking into change my commanders builds for destroyers. I currently have similar build on my Fletcher, Z-46 and Akatsuki commanders and all of them are at 17 points at the moment. 

 

The builds are as follows:

1-point: PT or PM

2-points: LS & AR

3-points: TAE & SE

4-points: CE 

with 2 points still waiting. 

CCleaner Happy Wheels VLCI saw Notsers video about his new Z-52 build and have paid more attention to the use of the RL skill (playing more CB as well), so my question is if it is worth swapping AR for RL at 17 points or wait with the RL until I have 19 point commanders (have no 19-pointer yet)? 

 

Have never tried RL myself so it is hard to tell how much I will get out of it, but I guess RL is more of a proactive skill and AR a reactive skill by the way they work. 

 

That may be worth more in the long run than RL.

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I am a rookie player, so bare that in mind, as you read further.

 

I am running a 16 point Captain on my Akatsuki with this build:

1. PM

2. LS & AR

3. TAE

4. CE & RL

 

The problem with Radio Location, is that it is one more thing you have to keep track of. If your choice is between AR and RL, it is quite simple comparison.

 

AR:

- is a 100% guaranteed buff to your ship performance; everyone likes to shoot themselves some DDs in the end;

- is based on you making a mistake or being outplayed, which for me at least happens a lot;

- rewards more aggressive gameplay where you pick fights;

 

RL:

- is only as good as you make it; it requires a lot of situational awarness;

- is based on you being tactical and preemptively launching torpedoes and pointing your guns in the right direction; or avoiding the fight alltogether;

- rewards a tactical approach and also cooperation;

 

From gameplay point of view, I cannot state how many times RL has saved me or friendlies from being utterly demolished. Here are some situations where RL was a game changer for my team:

- discovered an enemy DD that has sneaked past our lines and was hunting BBs with deep water torps thanks to the bearing;

- discovered a sneaking up Cruiser behind an island 6km away from me and scored a Devastating Strike with preemptive torps;

- cross-located enemy CV together with a friendly DD with RL;

 

There were problably many more, but I cannot remember exact examples right now. RL is providing information and you win games by knowing more.

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10 hours ago, Lea_Flamma said:

Here are some situations where RL was a game changer for my team:

- discovered an enemy DD that has sneaked past our lines and was hunting BBs with deep water torps thanks to the bearing

That's happened to me a few times in my RL equipped shima, normally when I'm heading from one cap to another, RL bearing points to where you expect the enemy ships then bam RL points 180° to a position well past our lines, quick ping on the map to make the BBs change direction followed by a reccy and oh look one sneaky enemy DD 

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17 godzin temu, martin035 napisał:

That's happened to me a few times in my RL equipped shima, normally when I'm heading from one cap to another, RL bearing points to where you expect the enemy ships then bam RL points 180° to a position well past our lines, quick ping on the map to make the BBs change direction followed by a reccy and oh look one sneaky enemy DD 

That is why RL is the king of skills for me, even more so on a DD. Torpedoboats need it to avoid gunboats and gunboats need it to hunt everything.

 

A 17 Point Akatsuki Captain for me would be:

PM > LS > TAE > CE > RL > SE/SI/AR

 

I don't have much experience with the other lines on higher tiers, as I am still pushing through the tech trees, but I would assume something like:
PM > LS > BFA/SE > CE > RL > AR/SE

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@Lea_Flamma Whatever build you go for, I would strongly recommend you take Survivability Expert (especially at higher tiers).

SE and Last Stand are, for me at least, the two most important skills available because they keep you alive and a dead DD does no damage.

(you can potentially play without Last Stand if you are very good and are playing a fast gunboat but SE is pretty much mandatory).

 

I don't know a single unicum DD player that doesn't take SE. Not saying they don't exist, just that there is a rough consensus on the matter at the higher end of the skill scale.

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18 godzin temu, _Teob_ napisał:

@Lea_Flamma Whatever build you go for, I would strongly recommend you take Survivability Expert (especially at higher tiers).

SE and Last Stand are, for me at least, the two most important skills available because they keep you alive and a dead DD does no damage.

(you can potentially play without Last Stand if you are very good and are playing a fast gunboat but SE is pretty much mandatory).

 

I don't know a single unicum DD player that doesn't take SE. Not saying they don't exist, just that there is a rough consensus on the matter at the higher end of the skill scale.

Yeah, that is my intention. My Akatsuki captain is a 16 pointer now, nearing 17 and at which point I will be picking SE. I am still developing into other tech trees, so have yet to figure out how say KM DDs play, or the USN ones. Although from the gameplay I watched, they both are more of a mixed bag of Gunboats with decent torps. Hence probably TAE will be swapped for SE and later will add BFA to that mix? Not sure yet.

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1 hour ago, Lea_Flamma said:

Yeah, that is my intention. My Akatsuki captain is a 16 pointer now, nearing 17 and at which point I will be picking SE. I am still developing into other tech trees, so have yet to figure out how say KM DDs play, or the USN ones. Although from the gameplay I watched, they both are more of a mixed bag of Gunboats with decent torps. Hence probably TAE will be swapped for SE and later will add BFA to that mix? Not sure yet.

 

Ok so think of a scale between torpedo boats and gun boats. I say "scale" because depending on your captain spec and modules ship characteristics can change quite a lot.

 

On that scale, from Torpedo boats to Gun boats you would have:

Torpedos:

Shima

YY

Gearing

Z52

Middle

Grozo/Daring

Harugumo

Khaba

Guns:

 

The closer a ship is to one end of the scale, the more difficult it is to move it toward the other role. And the Gun part of the scale rewards you more for speccing into it. The more you go down toward guns, the less you want to run into that ship, regardless of what DD you are in - a Harugumo doesn't like fighting another Harugumo, for example.

So a gunboat Shima is not really a spec that you should run. And even more so a torpedo boat Khaba is nigh impossible (unless you really want to just rush everything down and point blank torp them).

 

The Z52 can be specced either way but it won't be able to consistently deal with more consummate gunboats. It has the lowest potential torpedo cooldown at t10 but it's guns are a bit lackluster when not augmented in any way so I tend to play it mostly as a torpedo boat with a good gimmick against other DDs (smoke+hydro).

The Gearing is better played as a torpedo boat these days with really good self defense guns. In fact with the 10.5km torpedoes, it has the second best torpedo DPM at t10. But it would struggle to be a full gun boat because pretty much everything past it toward the gun end of the scale will kill it with relative ease.

Past the Middle point, the gunboats tend to be very very scary and mostly specced to augment their main armaments rather than torpedoes.

 

This should give you a rough idea of how to spec t10 DDs (and what to expect when running into them). Or at least not run with a totally useless spec which would mean an expensive respec down the line.

 

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I have now gotten both Gearing and Z-52 and learned how to use RL on my Zerstörer along with Notsers latest build for it. The future will spell RL over AR for me, the information it provides is very useful and even if we have more CV infested meta information always wins since it let's you dictate the engagement. 

 

On my Gearing I have a 12 point captain (Ovechkin with buffed SE) and upcoming skills will be BFT, RL and finish it off with AR. 

 

Regarding what @_Teob_ said about gun vs torpedo boats I would give @Lea_Flamma the following recommendation; start with a universal build (PT-LS-SE-CE) for your DD to get a feeling for it. After this you look at some guides or reviews and see if you agree with the maker of that guide, usually some guide will suit your playstyle. As for USN and KM I consider the T9 ships to be more suitable for torpedos and T10 more suitable for gun builds. Hence why I have kept my Fletcher and Z-46 with pure torpedo builds. If you manage to avoid direct engagements you have the same torpedopower as the T10 but with better MM. 

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12 godziny temu, affie napisał:

Regarding what @_Teob_ said about gun vs torpedo boats I would give @Lea_Flamma the following recommendation; start with a universal build (PT-LS-SE-CE) for your DD to get a feeling for it. After this you look at some guides or reviews and see if you agree with the maker of that guide, usually some guide will suit your playstyle. As for USN and KM I consider the T9 ships to be more suitable for torpedos and T10 more suitable for gun builds. Hence why I have kept my Fletcher and Z-46 with pure torpedo builds. If you manage to avoid direct engagements you have the same torpedopower as the T10 but with better MM. 

I am going for PM over PT. While I find PT to be extremely useful in CAs, CLs and BBs now... I know that a DD is a magnet for all those guns. Every time I am detected, I am expecting a barrage of fire. It doesn't tell me much, if 4 or 8 ships are shooting at me. It is still a GTFO of here situation. My Kagero is sitting in the port, waiting for me to get bored of Akatsuki. But the skills I have now are PM-LS-TAE-CE-RL with a free point. I want to grab SE next, which will top me off on 19 points.

 

I have yet to level a gunboat DD tbh. Am not sure how I feel about them, as I got so used to avoid being spotted, that openly fireing at targets, even from smoke is somewhat strange to me.

 

Thank you for the advice still! It's always nice to get insight from more experienced players :)

 

EDIT:

PM not PN, a typo.

Edited by Lea_Flamma
typo

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2 hours ago, Lea_Flamma said:

I am going for PM over PT. While I find PT to be extremely useful in CAs, CLs and BBs now... I know that a DD is a magnet for all those guns. Every time I am detected, I am expecting a barrage of fire. It doesn't tell me much, if 4 or 8 ships are shooting at me. It is still a GTFO of here situation. My Kagero is sitting in the port, waiting for me to get bored of Akatsuki. But the skills I have now are PN-LS-TAE-CE-RL with a free point. I want to grab SE next, which will top me off on 19 points.

 

I have yet to level a gunboat DD tbh. Am not sure how I feel about them, as I got so used to avoid being spotted, that openly fireing at targets, even from smoke is somewhat strange to me.

 

Thank you for the advice still! It's always nice to get insight from more experienced players :)

 

I keep seeing your arguments about PT from other people and I genuinely believe that opinion is due to not knowing how to use PT properly.

There is a massive difference between 4 ships shooting at you or 8 ships, to use your example. Basically PT helps you know when you should be aggressive or not.

I see players do that all the time, they just assume everyone is targeting them when in a lot of situations that is not the case.

In a nutshell, it's like this, you engage an enemy DD, he has some ships behind him, PT tells you if you should pursue the engagement or if you should break off/smoke/hide, based on the number of ships targeting you.

Also, when you are engaged in a knife fight with an enemy DD, PT tells you when they switch to torpedoes because it only works on main battery guns. So while you're fighting, if it's on 1, then you keep trading fire, if it goes down to 0 then you take evasive maneuvers.

Lastly, it tells you how many ships there are around you that you haven't yet seen because most people have auto-target running so once you pop into view, they will automatically target you. Again incredibly valuable information because you can usually see the enemy BBs so you can make an educated guess about how many DDs/cruisers are around, once you get lit up.

 

I would strongly urge you to take another look at PT as it is one of the most valuable skills in for DDs imo.

 

Oh and do get used to using your guns. Staying hidden will not be an option once you start playing t8 more. Radar and CVs will make sure of that, and running into other DDs will hammer the point even further.

Not to mention that you SHOULD be hunting down very wounded DDs, even in your IJN torpedo boats. If you see that an enemy on 2-5k hp and you are full health, you should take him down.

Also don't be afraid to use your guns on bigger enemy ships as well. If you happen to be in a smoke screen (either yours or not) and you have targets of opportunity, go for it. You will be surprised how quickly you will rack up another 10-15-20k dmg.

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1 hour ago, _Teob_ said:

In a nutshell, it's like this, you engage an enemy DD, he has some ships behind him, PT tells you if you should pursue the engagement or if you should break off/smoke/hide, based on the number of ships targeting you.

Also, when you are engaged in a knife fight with an enemy DD, PT tells you when they switch to torpedoes because it only works on main battery guns. So while you're fighting, if it's on 1, then you keep trading fire, if it goes down to 0 then you take evasive maneuvers.

This is the best reasons to take PT over PM, just because you are detected you don't need to smoke up and it will alow you to take those extra shots since you know if to take evasive actions or not.

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2 godziny temu, _Teob_ napisał:

(...)

Also don't be afraid to use your guns on bigger enemy ships as well. If you happen to be in a smoke screen (either yours or not) and you have targets of opportunity, go for it. You will be surprised how quickly you will rack up another 10-15-20k dmg.

I get your points and I seriously believe, that PT is a decent skill. I find it crucial for the other ships. I just ran out of points on my Torpedo IJN build and had to sacrifice something. PM is just too good for me, as loosing a torpedo tube in close fight can mean life and death of either of the sides engaged. The skill buffs it by some 30% I believe. Being Detected is not an automatic Smoke for me, although it is a sign to start some evasive manouvers and look for islands to break LoS. I train myself in situational awarness now, trying to break the habit of tunnel vission. So I try to keep track of all the ships around me. I will usually see the incoming shells.

 

With PM (1), LS (3), TAE (6), CE (10), RL (14), SE (17) and lastly JoAT (19) I am kind of low on spare points. I could maybe swap JoAT for PT and... I don't know... EL and IFA don't seem that good on a DD. I could drop SE and grab AFT instead? It's just a bit... Ehh... I am unwilling to part with RL, as I was advised by many players on the forums, as the skill provides me with crucial information and can be a game changer for me. It has saved numerous games just by pointing in the direction of a sneaky DD, or by swapping to a flanking CL at the 7km distance... He didn't saw the torps coming.

 

As for my gun usage, I do use them. Just in situations I know, I cannot drop out of detection within 20 seconds or when I have no one in LoS of me. IJN Torpedo boats are not terrible at dakka dakka.

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5 minutes ago, Lea_Flamma said:

I get your points and I seriously believe, that PT is a decent skill. I find it crucial for the other ships. I just ran out of points on my Torpedo IJN build and had to sacrifice something. PM is just too good for me, as loosing a torpedo tube in close fight can mean life and death of either of the sides engaged. The skill buffs it by some 30% I believe. Being Detected is not an automatic Smoke for me, although it is a sign to start some evasive manouvers and look for islands to break LoS. I train myself in situational awarness now, trying to break the habit of tunnel vission. So I try to keep track of all the ships around me. I will usually see the incoming shells.

 

With PM (1), LS (3), TAE (6), CE (10), RL (14), SE (17) and lastly JoAT (19) I am kind of low on spare points. I could maybe swap JoAT for PT and... I don't know... EL and IFA don't seem that good on a DD. I could drop SE and grab AFT instead? It's just a bit... Ehh... I am unwilling to part with RL, as I was advised by many players on the forums, as the skill provides me with crucial information and can be a game changer for me. It has saved numerous games just by pointing in the direction of a sneaky DD, or by swapping to a flanking CL at the 7km distance... He didn't saw the torps coming.

 

As for my gun usage, I do use them. Just in situations I know, I cannot drop out of detection within 20 seconds or when I have no one in LoS of me. IJN Torpedo boats are not terrible at dakka dakka.

 

You do not need Joat.

And your torpedo tubes should not be getting knocked out that often but hey each to his own.

 

The best spec for IJN DDs imo is

PT

AR + LS

SE + TAE

RL + CE

 

SE is too important to give up. RL is also quite important for IJN DDs as it helps you avoid running nose first into an enemy gunboat.

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Przed chwilą, _Teob_ napisał:

You do not need Joat.

And your torpedo tubes should not be getting knocked out that often but hey each to his own.

 

The best spec for IJN DDs imo is

PT

AR + LS

SE + TAE

RL + CE

 

SE is too important to give up. RL is also quite important for IJN DDs as it helps you avoid running nose first into an enemy gunboat.

Yeah, I cannot stress enough how RL is the best skill there is. Especially if you have it tracking an enemy Cruiser 8km away from you and it suddenly jumps away from it... Just splendid. I will retrain myself a captain with PT instead of PM and play some like that, see how big of a difference it makes. For now am testing other classes, to see how they play and to learn more about the game dynamics.

 

What you typed down is my go to build, just been conflicted about JoAT as an alternative. But then again... Premium smoke and boost solve the issue mostly. Thanks for the advice :)

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