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El2aZeR

Preliminary analysis of CV skills/upgrades

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Just thought I'd give my opinion on these for those that are interested.

 

Captain skills

Spoiler

1 pointers:

Air Supremacy (Aircraft restoration time -5%)

Improved Engine Boost (Boost time +10%)

These two skills are pretty much no brainers imo. Take one, then take the other once you're done with the rest of the core build.

 

Last Gasp (Restores engine boost for the last attack wing)

Completely useless imo. If you've conserved your boost the right way you'll have plenty available. The last wing is also usually the most shot up one, chances are you won't even get to use it.

 

 

2 pointers:

Torp Acceleration (Torp speed +5kn, torp range -20%)

Meh, take it if you have some points left. Not mandatory anymore in my eyes as your primary targets with TBs are now capital ships. For DDs and some cruisers you have either DBs or rockets.

 

Improved Engines (Squadron Speed +2,5%)

The go to 2-pointer. Extra speed is always nice.

 

Adrenaline Rush (Squadron Speed +0.2% for each 1% HP lost)

Useless as you never really need it. When you're attacking, aka when you're losing HP, you're mostly circling above your target anyway. The extra speed is thus completely wasted.

 

 

3 pointers:

Survivability Expert (+50 Aircraft HP per tier)

Mandatory skill. Self explanatory.

 

Aircraft Armor (Continuous AA damage -10%)

Same as above for USN CVs. Arguments can be made that if you don't rely too much on your DBs, which are the primary victims of DoT AA, you can forgo this.

 

Demolition Expert (Rocket fire chance +1%, HE bomb fire chance +5%)

Imo also mandatory for USN CVs for the MEGA ZAO experience. IJN CVs can forgo this one as they have AP bombs.

 

 

4 pointers:

Sight stabilization (Accelerates aiming time by 10%)

THE mandatory 4 pointer. No way around this one for obvious reasons.

 

Radio Location

Not that useful imo since you can now see whether or not your squad is detected and your aircraft are fast enough to comb the area in short order.

 

Concealment Expert (Detectability of CVs and aircraft -10%)

I see no use for it on USN CVs. Squadrons are fast enough that your positioning doesn't matter as much anymore and your aircraft are still detected very far out even with it.

Can be used by IJN CVs to achieve stealth torp capability. Whether this is actually useful or not requires further experimentation.

 

 

What I would use on USN CVs (haven't played IJN ones extensively yet):

- Air Supremacy (1pt)

- Improved Engines (2pt)

- Survivability Expert (3pt)

- Sight stabilization (4pt)

- Aircraft Armor (3pt)

- Demolition Expert (3pt)

- Torp Acceleration (2pt)

- Improved Engine Boost (1pt)

 

Upgrades:

Spoiler

Slot 1:

Air Groups Mod 1 (Speed of returning aircraft +20%)

Your only choice. Alternative would be Aux Armament Mod 1 which for a CV is useless.

 

 

Slot 2:

Aircraft Engines Mod 1 (Boost time +10%)

No choice here either. Only alternative is DamCon System Mod 1 which too is useless on CVs thanks to reworked CVs being almost immune to DoT.

 

 

Slot 3:

Torp Bombers Mod 1 (TB attack time +5s)

Useless. Torp bombers attack for ages anyway.

Can maybe be used by IJN stealth torpers to some weird effect but debatable.

 

Attack Aircraft Mod 1 (Rocket attack time +2s)

Useless. Not only is +2s a joke, rocket planes are triggered on approach anyway. Even if you trigger early rocket planes have a pretty generous attack time in the first place and are currently the fastest planes on the field, meaning you'll reach your target regardless.

 

That means in Slot 3 you can either pick AA Guns Mod 1 (Number of flak bursts +2) or Secondary Battery Mod 1 (Secondary range +20%, Secondary max dispersion -20%). Personally I went with the AA, you're a lot more likely to be under air attack than to have a chance to use your secondaries.

 

 

Slot 4:

Attack Aircraft Mod 2

Torp Bombers Mod 2

Dive Bombers Mod 2

(+15% HP respectively)

Personally I picked the DBs because they are the most vulnerable to flak, having to continuously hover over their target to get all their ordinance off. Rockets and TBs meanwhile fly in and out of flak, meaning less overall exposure to DoT AA so if you can dodge the bursts you'll take less damage overall.

If you disagree with my reasoning then pick according to personal preference.

 

 

Slot 5:

Flight Control Mod 1 (Aircraft restoration time -5%, Deck space +3)

This is actually a very viable alternative to concealment especially considering you can hide further away now thanks to increased aircraft speeds and no need to wait for your planes to return anymore.

Although you could argue that if you don't lose a lot of planes anyway then this slot is kinda wasted.

 

Concealment System Mod 1 (Ship and aircraft detectability -10%, Dispersion of shells targeting you +5%)

If you wanna go for the troll IJN stealth torp build this is mandatory. Otherwise I'd say pick according to personal preference.

 

 

Slot 6:

Flight Control Mod 2 (Speed +7%)

What I use. Speed is incredibly valuable in reworked CV play as it not only allows for faster follow up attacks but it makes the experience more enjoyable overall.

For yourself that is. Not for your target obviously. :Smile_trollface:

 

Air Group Mod 2 (Aircraft HP +10%)

Imo if you can dodge you won't need this in addition to all the other HP boosts. If you're not confident in your dodging skills tho, this is a viable pick.

 

 

Again, what I currently use on USN CVs:

- Air Groups Mod 1

- Aircraft Engines Mod 1

- AA Guns Mod 1

- Dive Bombers Mod 2

- Flight Control Mod 1 (I may switch to Concealment though)

- Flight Control Mod 2

 

Please keep in mind that these are still subject to change.

 

EDIT:

This is outdated, see below for updated list instead.

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Players
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Playing against bots on PT, it flet like concealment is a must, although that may be different against human players.

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[RONIN]
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Worth noting with concealment/IJN torps is even if you're not trying to drop from stealth (only Hak has long enough torps to do this), then the concealment affects AA. Normally against a worcester you get a wall of flak greeting you at 6.9km. With conceal you get spotted at 6.1, at which point the flak starts firing. The actual bursts dont appear till around 5.5km at which point youare nearly starting your attack run.

 

Its rather sub optimal IMO but its not a bad choice if you arent good at dodging flak

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Oh forgotten thread

lost to the ages.

Arise and return

to the frontmost pages!

 

Just thought about updating this but didn't want to create a new thread for that. :Smile_hiding:

Changes in skills/upgrades are underlined.

 

Captain skills

Spoiler

1 pointers:

Air Supremacy (Aircraft restoration time -5%)

Improved Engine Boost (Boost time +10%)

These two skills are pretty much no brainers imo. Take one, then take the other once you're done with the rest of the core build. Nothing changed here.

 

Last Gasp (Restores engine boost for the last attack wing)

I know that Fara likes to use this but I've never seen him get big results out of it imo. It can perhaps be situationally useful so if you have a point left take this.

However if you've conserved your boost the right way you'll have plenty available. The last wing is also usually the most shot up one, chances are you won't even get to use it.

 

Direction Center for Fighters (+1 plane for Fighter squads)

Completely useless. Fighters can be cheesed anyway.

 

 

2 pointers:

Torp Acceleration (Torp speed +5kn, torp range -20%)

Meh, take it if you have some points left. Not mandatory anymore in my eyes as your primary targets with TBs are now capital ships. For DDs and some cruisers you have rockets.

If you want to go for Haku long range torp saturation attacks like Fara does you shouldn't take this skill due to the reduction in range.

 

Improved Engines (Squadron Speed +2,5%)

The go to 2-pointer. Extra speed is always nice.

Again though, for Haku long range torp saturation attacks this is perhaps undesirable as it gives you less time to get all torps off. I don't think the speed difference is big enough to affect that tho.

 

Adrenaline Rush (Squadron Speed +0.2% for each 1% HP lost)

Useless for USN CVs you never really need it. When you're attacking, aka when you're losing HP, you're mostly circling above your target anyway. The extra speed is thus completely wasted.

Arguments can be made to take this for IJN CVs as their torp bombers have to attack from further away, but personally I'd prefer the flat bonus that Improved Engines gives.

 

 

3 pointers:

Survivability Expert (+ 350 ship HP per tier, +20 Aircraft HP per tier)

Mandatory skill for T8+. Even for T6 I'd strongly recommend taking this. Self explanatory.

 

Aircraft Armor (Continuous AA damage -10%)

Mandatory skill all around now that every aura deals continuous damage.

 

Demolition Expert (Rocket fire chance +1%, HE bomb fire chance +5%)

Mandatory for USN CVs for the MEGA ZAO experience. IJN CVs can forgo this one as they have AP bombs.

 

 

4 pointers:

Sight stabilization (Accelerates aiming time by 10%)

THE mandatory 4 pointer. No way around this one for obvious reasons.

 

Radio Location

Not that useful imo since you can now see whether or not your squad is detected and your aircraft are fast enough to comb the area in short order.

 

Concealment Expert (Detectability of CVs and aircraft -10%)

I see no use for it on USN CVs. Squadrons are fast enough that your positioning doesn't matter as much anymore and your aircraft are still detected very far out even with it.

Useful for IJN CVs to get DD concealment on their TBs. Mandatory for Haku long range torp saturation attacks.

 

 

My PTS build for USN CVs:

- Air Supremacy (1pt)

- Improved Engines (2pt)

- Aircraft Armor (3pt)

- Sight Stabilization (4pt)

- Survivability Expert (3pt)

- Demolition Expert (3pt)

- Torp Acceleration (2pt)

- Improved Engine Boost (1pt)

 

What I would use on IJN CVs:

- Air Supremacy (1pt)

- Improved Engines (2pt)

- Aircraft Armor (3pt)

- Concealment Expert (4pt)

- Sight Stabilization (4pt)

- Survivability Expert (3pt) 

- Improved Engine Boost (1pt)

- Last Gasp (1pt)

 

Upgrades

Spoiler

Slot 1:

Air Groups Mod 1 (Speed of returning aircraft +20%)

Your only choice. Alternative would be Aux Armament Mod 1 which for a CV is useless.

 

 

Slot 2:

Aircraft Engines Mod 1 (Boost time +10%)

No choice here either. Only alternative is DamCon System Mod 1 which too is useless on CVs thanks to reworked CVs being almost immune to DoT.

 

 

Slot 3:

Torp Bombers Mod 1 (TB attack time +5s)

This can be useful for IJN CVs as their TBs are more maneuverable and don't suffer nearly as much aiming penalty as their USN counterparts when turning.

Completely useless for USN CVs tho.

 

Attack Aircraft Mod 1 (Rocket attack time +2s)

Useless. Not only is +2s a joke, rocket planes are triggered on approach anyway. Even if you trigger early rocket planes have a pretty generous attack time in the first place and are currently the fastest planes on the field, meaning you'll reach your target regardless.

 

That means in Slot 3 you can either pick AA Guns Mod 1 (Number of flak bursts +2) or Secondary Battery Mod 1 (Secondary range +20%, Secondary max dispersion -20%) as a USN CV. Personally I went with the AA, you're a lot more likely to be under air attack than to have a chance to use your secondaries.

 

 

Slot 4:

Attack Aircraft Mod 2

Torp Bombers Mod 2

Dive Bombers Mod 2

(+10% HP respectively)

On USN CVs I'd go for Attack Aircraft Mod 2 as your RFs are better than your DBs in almost every application while TBs now have heal, as such they have high sustain anyway.

On IJN CVs your TBs are your primary damage dealers, so I'd use Torp Bombers Mod 2.

 

 

Slot 5:

Flight Control Mod 1 (Aircraft restoration time -5%, Deck space +3)

This is actually a very viable alternative to concealment especially considering you can hide further away now thanks to increased aircraft speeds and no need to wait for your planes to return anymore.

Although you could argue that if you don't lose a lot of planes anyway then this slot is kinda wasted.

 

Concealment System Mod 1 (Ship and aircraft detectability -10%, Dispersion of shells targeting you +5%)

Mandatory for IJN CVs to achieve glorious DD concealment on your TBs.

Can be forgone by USN CVs as they still have bad concealment even with this.

 

Slot 6:

Flight Control Mod 2 (Speed +5%)

I still use this for the same reasons. Speed is incredibly valuable in reworked CV play as it not only allows for faster follow up attacks but it makes the experience more enjoyable overall.

For yourself that is. Not for your target obviously. :Smile_trollface:

This may hinder your long range torp attacks with Haku tho.

 

Air Group Mod 2 (Aircraft HP +7,5%)

Imo if you can dodge you won't need this in addition to all the other HP boosts. If you're not confident in your dodging skills tho, this is a viable pick.

 

 

My build on PTS USN CVs:

- Air Groups Mod 1

- Aircraft Engines Mod 1

- AA Guns Mod 1

- Attack Aircraft Mod 2

- Flight Control Mod 1

- Flight Control Mod 2

 

What I would use on IJN CVs:

- Air Groups Mod 1

- Aircraft Engines Mod 1

- Torp Bombers Mod 1 or AA Guns Mod 1 (requires further testing)

- Torp Bombers Mod 2

- Concealment System Mod 1

- Flight Control Mod 2; Air Groups Mod 2 on Haku

 

EDIT:

There were a few changes between PTS and live but my build remains the same.

 

EDIT2:

This is now also highly outdated due to severe changes to AA and the meta. No updated list has been made so far. Maybe I'll do it someday.

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[I401]
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I dont feel the balance at tier10 is good right now.

With rockets the USN is obviously better.

HE Dive bombers do more damage than a really hard multiple citadel AP drop. AP bombs are unreliable.

The only field where the Haku is better than the Midway, is torp bombers but only if you go for the 8km triple drop area denial which is again (like AP bombs) really hard to pull off. Midway TBs might die a lot easier but they can arent weak at all.

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didnt play , ignored that crap, i hate it.... first 1000 games is going to be lol,   just watch thousand of cv players suck at its best  , the stats are going to drop like a rock.

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3 hours ago, RepSrb said:

didnt play , ignored that crap, i hate it.... first 1000 games is going to be lol,   just watch thousand of cv players suck at its best  , the stats are going to drop like a rock.

can't wait if that's the case

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3 hours ago, CraftyVeteran said:

can't wait if that's the case

Imagine all the buffs because CV are underperforming. 8/24 TB squadrons when?:Smile_trollface:

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Do HE bombs still have >100% firechance? Because then +5% on DE seems quite uninteresting. 

 

What is the average firechance on the rockets? 

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4 minutes ago, __Helmut_Kohl__ said:

Do HE bombs still have >100% firechance? Because then +5% on DE seems quite uninteresting. 

 

What is the average firechance on the rockets? 

Rockets 8% IJN 9% USN i guess?

Yes USN HE bombs have a huge fire chance, like deep water torps have a 400% flooding chance.

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21 minutes ago, kfa said:

Rockets 8% IJN 9% USN i guess?

Yes USN HE bombs have a huge fire chance, like deep water torps have a 400% flooding chance.

I wouldn't call 41%/52%/52%64% fire chance on T4/6/8/10 "huge" as pre prework they had 120%/141%/162%/162% for same tier US CV

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17 minutes ago, Panocek said:

I wouldn't call 41%/52%/52%64% fire chance on T4/6/8/10 "huge" as pre prework they had 120%/141%/162%/162% for same tier US CV

 

DE is still only interesting for rockets then. 

 

You wouldn't slap it on a Conqueror, would you? 

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1 minute ago, __Helmut_Kohl__ said:

 

DE is still only interesting for rockets then. 

 

You wouldn't slap it on a Conqueror, would you? 

DE for rockets gives only +1%, so its still questionable for 3 points. 

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Thank you for the effort here.

 

I came up with the exact same two 19-pt builds you give in the updated post. In the new system it feels like 14 points is the new magic number, the stuff you really want no matter what:

Air Supremacy (1), Improved Engines (2), Survivability Expert (3), Sight Stabilization (4) , Aircraft Armor (3), Improved Engine Boost (1)

 

Then the 5 points of icing on the cake depending on what you want to focus, probably Concealment Expert + Last Gasp (for stealth drops) or Demo Expert + Torpedo Acceleration for generalist play. 

 

All in all I like the new skill system for CV's a lot better than the old one, where 11 points was the magic number and then you just take stuff like CE/AFT/ManAA for some edge-case scenarios. Now we actually have to do some give-and-take.

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3 minutes ago, jss78 said:

Thank you for the effort here.

 

I came up with the exact same two 19-pt builds you give in the updated post. In the new system it feels like 14 points is the new magic number, the stuff you really want no matter what:

Air Supremacy (1), Improved Engines (2), Survivability Expert (3), Sight Stabilization (4) , Aircraft Armor (3), Improved Engine Boost (1)

 

Then the 5 points of icing on the cake depending on what you want to focus, probably Concealment Expert + Last Gasp (for stealth drops) or Demo Expert + Torpedo Acceleration for generalist play. 

 

All in all I like the new skill system for CV's a lot better than the old one, where 11 points was the magic number and then you just take stuff like CE/AFT/ManAA for some edge-case scenarios. Now we actually have to do some give-and-take.

Demo Expert is barely advisable on USN CV, as it gives (modest) bonuses to rockets and bombs, on IJN its hilarious waste. Torpedo Acceleration on USN is kinda questionable, as TB are anti capital ship weapon due to lengthy aiming as well totally obvious strike incoming.

 

I guess I'll settle with CE and PT if I decide to shove 19lvl captain on Midway during post patch retraining period

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22 minutes ago, Panocek said:

DE for rockets gives only +1%, so its still questionable for 3 points. 

 

Wow, that is underwhelming indeed.

@El2aZeR why do you think it is worth it?

 

And can you tell me how many % of the base HP the SE skill will give me additionally at TX ?

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16 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Demo Expert is barely advisable on USN CV, as it gives (modest) bonuses to rockets and bombs, on IJN its hilarious waste. Torpedo Acceleration on USN is kinda questionable, as TB are anti capital ship weapon due to lengthy aiming as well totally obvious strike incoming.

 

I guess I'll settle with CE and PT if I decide to shove 19lvl captain on Midway during post patch retraining period

 

I agree they're questionable ... I'm just not sure CE isn't questionable also. I think the returns after 14 pts are weaker either way.

 

 

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32 minutes ago, __Helmut_Kohl__ said:

 

Wow, that is underwhelming indeed.

@El2aZeR why do you think it is worth it?

 

And can you tell me how many % of the base HP the SE skill will give me additionally at TX ?

IIRC, T10 planes have nearly 2k hit points, so SE gives them +10%.

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7 hours ago, __Helmut_Kohl__ said:

Wow, that is underwhelming indeed.

@El2aZeR why do you think it is worth it?

 

Because you fire a :etc_swear:ton of rockets per attack, thus giving you a pretty substantial increase in practical fire chance even if the given value of 1% seems underwhelming at first.

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What's people's view on the reworked Priority Target? Worth it for a leftover 1 point, over Last Gasp?

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3 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Because you fire a :etc_swear:ton of rockets per attack, thus giving you a pretty substantial increase in practical fire chance even if the given value of 1% seems underwhelming at first.

 

If the base-firechance is 9%, the amount of fires caused will still only increase by 11% of what it used to be.

 

Is it that important to cause 11 instead of 10 fires a battle ? For 3 P ?

Question of flavor, I guess.

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2 minutes ago, __Helmut_Kohl__ said:

If the base-firechance is 9%, the amount of fires caused will still only increase by 11% of what it used to be.

 

Seems good enough for me since setting DoTs is the thing you want in a USN CV.

 

It's not like you have a lot of other options tbh. Your only real alternative would be CE.

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I agree on most Parts here but couldn't really see the Value in SE / DE on PTS, expecially last Round. Which is also a good Thing as it means that we see some alternative Builds instead of copy / paste. 

 

SE -> used it for the first Test runs but changed it after the recent AA Buffs. At least for me my Playstyle changed in a way where I wouldn't go for 4 Strikes in a Row with the same Squad, expecially early Game. The AA density is too high most of the Time. Therefore I'm not really able to use the additional Health here. This changes in mid / late since you will mostly focus down Ships that already took some Damage to their AA. The big Issue with the current AA System are multiple mid / long range Auras which pretty much "dissappear" towards the end, and in these kinda Situations you normal Plane Health would even be enough for 4 continous drops

 

DE -> lost it's Value to me as they moved the heal Consumeable to TBs. At least for my last Testruns DBs felt really ineffective due to the high AA Damage taken , even by single Ships. So I barely used DBs at all and instead went for HVAR and TBs. Here it comes down to personal Taste -> you get an effective 1% of Fire Chance with HVAR. From my Experience getting Fires on Capital Ships isn't really an Issue without it (Depending from where you are striking you can get 2 fires out of 1 Strike, on 2 different sections of the Ship). 

 

The last US Build I used looked like this and will most likely become my live Build , too ( If i decide to keep my CVs) . The Reason I'm picking the Concealment Module over additional Planes:

- From my Experience the Plane Losses can be minimized by returning your Planes with F in Case you take heavy AA Damage. As a rough Indicator i'd say when 3/4 of your Planes are already on yellow HP after a Strike.

- I'm used to very aggressive Positioning and Ship AA Usage, so at least for me it's a must have. Not because of the Plane Stealth but for sticking with my Fleet ( For example i love to cap with my CVs :P)

 

Spoiler

25-01-_2019_09-43-52.jpg

 

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2 hours ago, __Helmut_Kohl__ said:

 

If the base-firechance is 9%, the amount of fires caused will still only increase by 11% of what it used to be.

 

Is it that important to cause 11 instead of 10 fires a battle ? For 3 P ?

Question of flavor, I guess.

People are taking DE on some firestarter cruisers for similar gains. I don't remember my build for Zao so I'm not sure if I actually use it there, but even if I don't, I know it's not considered a worthless pick by some people I consider really good players (Flamu has it in his recommended build, for example). Two percent point increase in fire chance on 19% shells is comparable (a bit lower actually) to one percent point for 9% chance rockets - so that's basically what you're getting here. A bit of an extra firestarting capability on top of your great firestarting weapon to push it that half a step further.

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2 hours ago, jss78 said:

What's people's view on the reworked Priority Target? Worth it for a leftover 1 point, over Last Gasp?

 

Don't think so. Imo the extra information is useless. The flak you need to dodge spawns in the direction you're going no matter how many ships are firing at you and you can deduce how fast your squad is dying by simply looking at the health bar.

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