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Alfa_Tau

Kronstadt: overexstimated Cruiser?

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Hello Everyone, 

 

I would like to open a discussion about the Kronstadt to get the opinion of other players that own the ship. 

After playing a few battles in it I feel kind of sorry that I bought it. As many other players  I watched a few videos on YouTube to get some knowledge about the ship BUT I find out later that these videos are kind of advertising :Smile_bajan2: in my opinion.

The reason I say this is because the ship has a LOT of weakness and the 2 positive factors that SHOULD compensate are rather underwhelming. I'm talking about the guns and the HP of course.

First of all the guns: Although they have a very powerful PEN capacity, they are probably the most inaccurate at that Tier. At ranges over 15 km it becomes an issue to EFFECTIVELY hit a ship that knows how to angle, change course/speed. Yes you can hit it BUT due to the poor dispersion quite often you get 1 or 2 hit in a salvo of 9 shells (resulting often in a Overpen!). This deny for example the opportunity to get citadel on a full broadside ship that is turning not knowing you are aiming at it. 

HP pool looks great at the start: 71K LOL you feel good. But as soon as you get focus, you find out how quickly this HP vanish. The main weakness is 25mm armor everywhere wich expose you not only to HE spam from other cruisers (and lately also from a variety of BB including some German and US that have forgotten how good are their AP shells),  but more importantly from OVERMATCH of bow armor wich quite often also result in a frontal citadel. :Smile_sad:

So far about the good , now let's talk about the negative sides.

It's huge and its also quite sluggish to manouver, making dodging torps quite difficult.

It has a PITYFULL AA for a cruiser of that Tier. Just to give you an idea I just played a round in wich enemy team had KAGA : well I got attacked 3 times by waves of TB followed by the Bombers. Result: with defensive AA activated twice (third time it was still in cool down) I shot down 22 planes. But in return I got 5 torps with 2 floodings and 1 fire. Now considering KAGA is a T7 CV so basically the weakest possible CV you can encounter, it's really an overwhelming outcome. :Smile_sad:

Now before  I close hoping to receive some opinion/suggestion/advice from other players, let me clarify that I got the Kronstadt because I grinded the Whole Russian Cruiser line a lot of time ago. I regularly play my Moskva that I still consider one of the stronget T10 Cruiser, and I believe it still will be after the release of the long waited ALASKA. So do not consider me  an outsider that got the Kronstadt having no idea about the Russian line.

Last but not least a message in the bottle for those who wish to buy it before it will be removed from the shop: think it not TWICE BUT 3 TIMES!! :Smile_coin:

  

 Thanks for your attention I will be waiting for your reply !  :Smile_honoring:

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You’ve picked it’s two biggest flaws and I do agree  but give the Kronstadt cruiser dispersion and it would be overpowered even at tier 10.

The dispersion is similar to Scharnhorst but the ship feels far more accurate for some reason.

The Alaska and Azusa are coming out with   Graf spee style dispersion so maybe Kronstadt should have the same.

 

problem is that the Kronstadt when played at range is extremely effective so any buff to dispersion would have to have nerfs elsewhere.

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6 minutes ago, Alfa_Tau said:

Now before  I close hoping to receive some opinion/suggestion/advice from other players, let me clarify that I got the Kronstadt because I grinded the Whole Russian Cruiser line a lot of time ago. I regularly play my Moskva that I still consider one of the stronget T10 Cruiser, and I believe it still will be after the release of the long waited ALASKA. So do not consider me  an outsider that got the Kronstadt having no idea about the Russian line.

If you grinded the USSR CA line a long time ago you probably knew that Moskva couldn't bow tank back then nor any ship on that line could do it. Those ship require angling not bow tanking. 

 

The other mistake you are making is comparing Kronstadt to Moskva. The last is one tier above and before the 50mm plating she was as tanky as Kronstadt currently is. 

 

Yes, Kronshtadt  is a little sluggish due to slow rudder shift but she have far superior turning circle than Moskva... And with that torpedo protection she barely fears 1 - 2 hits (That reminds me for a battle in which Lolanta thought that charging my full hp Krony with torps is good idea. I ate all of them on the torpedo belt and lived to the end of the battle, she was not) 

 

Currently Kronshtadt is the ultimate t9 Cruiser, a title that will soon be claimed by Alaska. However, the USN large cruiser will never be capable to deliver the spectacular citadel hits to t10 BBs. 

 

P. S. If you so much dislike her, you may try to find how to request a full refund. Not if I advise you to do that. 

 

 

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26 minutes ago, Episparh said:

If you grinded the USSR CA line a long time ago you probably knew that Moskva couldn't bow tank back then nor any ship on that line could do it. Those ship require angling not bow tanking. 

 

The other mistake you are making is comparing Kronstadt to Moskva. The last is one tier above and before the 50mm plating she was as tanky as Kronstadt currently is. 

 

Thanks for your reply and tips. 

Moskva is T10 and of course there must be some differences. However I find it's gun way superior even if they deliver less damage per salvo. Still the accuracy it's Amazing and that compensate. 

29 minutes ago, Episparh said:

IP. S. If you so much dislike her, you may try to find how to request a full refund. Not if I advise you to do that.  

 

I would never do that! I didn't say I dislike it but I probably was epecting more. 

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This ship is not for everyone, not easy to play. 

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Moskva has sides that are so much softer. 

So easy to get one shotted. Kronstadt has much better armour (200 + 90) and a better turning circle so you should play more like a Donskoi but with more AP.

its fun getting citadels on Montanas and Yamatos at 15km.

 

of course a Moskva can do that at 8km.

AMiskca can also deal with angled targets well. It’s HE DPM is not high but it’s so accurate every shot will hit.

 

The most fun in a Moskva is when 2-3 battleships are nose in toward you, bouncing shells, while you have all of them on fire!

 

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23 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

She does not seem to hit too badly and the rest....

image.thumb.png.c40e5c233740152f71938db2b7efadc2.png

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20181222/eu_2month/average_ship.html

 

 

 

Have you sorted that to only show results by top 5% of players? Cause otherwise I think that hit ratio is inflated by the generally better players that owns krons. 

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Pro tips: 

You should move from 10km range to 18km range and stay angled like always, use AP 99% of the time and change course/speed all the time (applied to all cruisers but the AP usage).

Use islands to cover yourself from enemy BBs and stay away from musashi and Yamato. Never show your broadside.

 

How tl counter HE hell spammers:

It is simple, take their flank and citadell them to the bottom of the sea, if not possible, kite away meanwhime using all your guns on them, if after 3 salvoes of doing minimum damage, switch to HE till they fail to angle against you, then AP to death.

 

Stay close to the caps to be able to use radar all the time and deny DD capping.

Support your cruisers since you can tank way more than them.

I have 65% WR, 91K average after 215+ games in it.

 

Cheers, its an amazing ship! 

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I have hesitated to exchange KS as well for a long time OP. I decided to take it because I was drowning in free XP and with the coming removal: regret is always bigger for things you didn't do. Same goes for Musashi (coal excess/ removal). I took the liberty of watching your stats (I know: stats =/= the whole story). Now I have playes PS only twice so I can't say I'm experienced with it. However I can see two pitfalls. 1 is the "Oh I'm Kronshtadt so I'm invincible. Let's rrrruuuummmble!!!!!" trap. 2 KS (Am I the only one having severe spelling trouble with the full name) is German cruiser by design AFAIK. Except for Moskva your and my stats are quite comparable-ish with both cruiserlines (KM and USSR that is). Doing not very bad (nothing legendary OC) with the Russian line and struggling some harder with the German (nothing totally disastrous noob-ish but clear visible room for improvement).

 

Perhaps I'm talking nonsense here but it might be on to something. KS could need a totally different playstyle. But like I said: I'm still too inexperienced to call that being a fact.

 

Edit: I forgot. The YT films are always the best matches played by the cc's so use them to inform yourself but don't expect you having those kind of matches all the time just by buying that ship. You won't. Neither do they. Best way is to watch twitch streams and watch them live. That way you'll get a far better impression. Still keep in mind they are very abled players. 

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41 minutes ago, thiextar said:

Have you sorted that to only show results by top 5% of players? Cause otherwise I think that hit ratio is inflated by the generally better players that owns krons. 

I gave you the source....

And no, I did no such thing. That are AVERAGES.

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29 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

I gave you the source....

And no, I did no such thing. That are AVERAGES.

Yeah thats the issue then, im pretty sure that the hit ratio wouldnt be so good in comparison to other ships if it was sorted in such a way that the averege player skill of the ships were the same.

 

Not disputing that kronny is op tho, i just dont think that these numbers are necessarily representative of the ships accuracy because of skill disparity.

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You dont seem to be able to make it work, thats it, shes a great ship.

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13 minutes ago, thiextar said:

Yeah thats the issue then, im pretty sure that the hit ratio wouldnt be so good in comparison to other ships if it was sorted in such a way that the averege player skill of the ships were the same.

 

Not disputing that kronny is op tho, i just dont think that these numbers are necessarily representative of the ships accuracy because of skill disparity.

That does not make her inaccurate.

And considering the complaints about her, the good player ratio went down quite a bit since she got introduced.

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1 hour ago, ColonelPete said:

She does not seem to hit too badly and the rest....

 

Did you even think about the numbers you posted? Any idea why Neptune and Seattle are on the bottom? You really think its because of the dispersion? .... Its because of the ARCS! Neptune and Seattle have the longest shell-flying time. Thus its easy to dodge them with NATURALLY will give them worse hitrate. Kronshtadt has the fastest shells of all T9 cruisers. You really think, if you go to a trainingroom and shoot a stationary target with Neptune and with Kronshtadt - the Kronshtadt will hit better? If you answer "yes", you have no idea what you are talking about, if you answer "no" - you admit, that the table you posted, has no value to the question at hand. I rest my case.

 

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1 hour ago, ColonelPete said:

She does not seem to hit too badly and the rest....

image.thumb.png.c40e5c233740152f71938db2b7efadc2.png

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20181222/eu_2month/average_ship.html

 

 

 

18 minutes ago, thiextar said:

Yeah thats the issue then, im pretty sure that the hit ratio wouldnt be so good in comparison to other ships if it was sorted in such a way that the averege player skill of the ships were the same.

 

Not disputing that kronny is op tho, i just dont think that these numbers are necessarily representative of the ships accuracy because of skill disparity.

 

Look at hitrate from Moskva and Stalin, which have similiar guns:

Moskva: 35.82

Stalin: 41.13

 

First one is played by everyone and has much better accuracy than Kron.

Stalin is probably played by even better players than Kron, but its 10!% more.

 

So id say, Kronshtadt doesnt hit good when compared to similiar railguns.

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15 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

Did you even think about the numbers you posted? Any idea why Neptune and Seattle are on the bottom? You really think its because of the dispersion? .... Its because of the ARCS! Neptune and Seattle have the longest shell-flying time. Thus its easy to dodge them with NATURALLY will give them worse hitrate. Kronshtadt has the fastest shells of all T9 cruisers. You really think, if you go to a trainingroom and shoot a stationary target with Neptune and with Kronshtadt - the Kronshtadt will hit better? If you answer "yes", you have no idea what you are talking about, if you answer "no" - you admit, that the table you posted, has no value to the question at hand. I rest my case.

 

It is all part of the accuracy.

Railguns make hitting targets easier than shooting with "mortars", even when they have better dispersion.

 

15 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Look at hitrate from Moskva and Stalin, which have similiar guns:

Moskva: 35.82

Stalin: 41.13

 

First one is played by everyone and has much better accuracy than Kron.

Stalin is probably played by even better players than Kron, but its 10!% more.

Stalin has an insane and otherworldy sigma. You are comparing 2.05 with 2.65....

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31 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Stalin has an insane and otherworldy sigma. You are comparing 2.05 with 2.65....

I do not know why people are so unfamiliar with sigma yet. 

 

Here is a nice explanation from our forum:

 

 

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32 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Stalin has an insane and otherworldy sigma. You are comparing 2.05 with 2.65....

 

- Moskva has the same 2.05 (f2p by everyone)

- All Cruisers (except IJN + BCs) have same Dispersion elipse

- Stalingrad has worse dispersion than Cruisers, sigma only groups them more to the center

- Kronshtadt has same dispersion as US/UK/RU BBs.

 

Therefor Kronshtadt dispersion is the worst amongst all Cruisers (Yamato has same Sigma but better dispersion ontop). The only salvation is the railguns + more good players tend to play it.

In the end, that doesnt help much as the shells do land all over the place. BBs dont have worse hitrate, but its still a lottery if you get a citadel or an overpen.

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39 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Stalin has an insane and otherworldy sigma. You are comparing 2.05 with 2.65....

 

Which is exactly the point of the discussion. Well, a piece of it. Read the link of @Episparh aswell as...

 

40 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

It is all part of the accuracy.

 

No. If I fire my G36 at a stationary target from 200m, then move back to 400m and then start shooting of a moving target from 400m - my hit ratio will decline over each exercise. So if you put those numbers again in your table - you want to tell me, I have a different rifle all of a sudden? No, its the circumstances. The rifle still has the same accuracy. It doesnt change just because the exercise gets harder.

Thats why the hit ratio comparision of Seattle vs. Kronshtadt by sheer numbers is useless. @DFens_666 comparision between Moskva - Kron and Stalin makes more sense, since they share more similar guncharactaristics and fight aprox. at the same range. And Kron falls short very bad in this comparision, which is true.

 

Just to give a better example btw: If I were to fight a broadside Moskva from 10 km, and I´d have to chose between Kronshtadt and lets say Buffalo, I´d pick Buffalo, since it WILL hit the citadel more reliable.

 

3 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Dispersion is not the sole factor in accuracy as any Altanta shooting at 14km will tell you.

 

I hope you do understand, that you contradict the table with your numbers and what you are trying to say there with this statement - right?

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7 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:


@Episparh

@DFens_666

I hope you do understand, that you contradict the table with your numbers and what you are trying to say there with this statement - right?

You do not get the difference between accuracy and dispersion.

Kronshtadt does not have normal cruiser dispersion (worse accuracy), but she has rail guns that make hitting targets much easier (better accuracy), which gives her good accuracy overall compared to her peers as I showed.

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9 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:
19 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:


@Episparh

@DFens_666

I hope you do understand, that you contradict the table with your numbers and what you are trying to say there with this statement - right?

You do not get the difference between accuracy and dispersion.

Kronshtadt does not have normal cruiser dispersion (worse accuracy), but she has rail guns that make hitting targets much easier (better accuracy), which gives her good accuracy overall compared to her peers as I showed.

WTF is that quote? 

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9 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

You do not get the difference between accuracy and dispersion.

Kronshtadt does not have normal cruiser dispersion (worse accuracy), but she has rail guns that make hitting targets much easier (better accuracy), which gives her good accuracy overall compared to her peers as I showed.

 

To sum this up for Kron:

- Railguns which makes it easier to hit at range (good)

- Worst dispersion from all Cruisers (bad)

- Same Sigma as all Cruisers (normal)

 

Compared to Moskva, its simply worse, because Moskva has Cruiser dispersion, but same sigma and same railguns.

I cant go and compare it to Seattle guns, which have floaty arcs, so it has a hard time hitting at longrange. The fact that Kron has worse dispersion still stands. Thats why it holds up poorly compared to similiar guns :fish_book:

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