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Zuihou25

Why do people dislike stats?

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about winrate its very easy why has no real value. look this:

 

an TOP player will do 110.000damage and survive each of 10 battles.

but morons team, will loose 10x

 

result? 

 

this top player winrate is ZERO winrate.

 

thatsway is winrate a nothing number.  i already post solutions for this ( for top players on team in loosed battle) 

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You're one of the good eggs OP. Fact of the matter is, most of the time when people do poorly, it is easier to deny it and claim that the tool that represents one's skill is fallacious than try to improve.

 

Merry Christmas everyone btw.

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23 minutes ago, Zuihou25 said:

 

Very nicely said sir! Its heartwarming to see that there are actually people like you who try to improve themselves. I just wish everyone was like this and actually tried to improve because then the game would be much better. :Smile_great:

 

One of the most sad things is when you are trying to be nice to weaker players and you actually tell them what to do, where to go and give them advice and they only start to crap talk back. :Smile_sceptic:

9 minutes ago, Milan_G_ said:

 

I disagree with you. It actually tells you alot, because the better player is the more he playes for objectives and aims to kill important ships. If a unicum DD player does 110k dmg his team is most likely going to win, because this DD killed enemy DD's and secured map control, spot superiority etc... win rate tells you how universal player is and how can he adapt to certain situations.

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4 minutes ago, Milan_G_ said:

about winrate its very easy why has no real value.

 

Except winrate is a perfectly fine representation of your ability provided you have a sufficient sample of matches.

On 9/10/2018 at 2:37 AM, eliastion said:

Let me put it this way: in any single match team has more impact on the result than the single player. HOWEVER - you're not playing one battle. You're playing hundreds, then thousands, of them - and over such a large number, the impact of good and bad teams mostly evens out. And when it evens out, the winrate stabilizes... and if it stabilizes well below 50%, it means that you consistently drag your team down instead of helping it.

 

Let's put it this way: in roughly 60% of games the result depends on your team and it doesn't really matter what you do. It goes roughly like this: in every statistical 10 battles (as long as you play solo and something that's not a carrier)...

3 battles are won no matter what. You could go AFK and you'll still win.

1 battle is very easy. You need to sail a bit around, shoot at enemies, NOT shoot at allies and, generally speaking, just be there.

1 battle requires a bit of effort. You need to pull your weight, be a threat to the enemy and support your team. Nothing fancy though - just do your part.

1 battle is hard. Just doing your job is not enough - you need to make up for your teammates being bad or enemies being good. You need to carry.

1 battle is insane. You need to carry like crazy and win seemingly on your own. Having an amazing match MIGHT be enough to pull off a victory... or it might not.

3 battles are hopeless. The difference in team quality is so overwhelming that you might be a god of this game and you'll still lose.

 

The majority of matches are beyond your control - but 4/10 depend on you. And these 4 are what differentiates a 30% WR super-potato from 70% WR super-unicum. If you just participate in your matches properly, you can expect about 40% winrate. If you are average and pull your weight - you'll get about 50% winrate. If you can carry a weak team, you'll enjoy a 60% winrate. And if you're really great, you might be able to end up in general proximity of 70% WR mark, signifying that if a team can possibly be carried to victory, you probably WILL carry it.

 

So yeah, if you have a bad WR after thousands of games, it's not the team that's consistently dragging you down. It's you that's consistently dragging your team down.

 

Also to get an extremely good WR just by pure luck involves ridiculous odds. You'd be much, MUCH better off trying to win the lottery jackpot than getting a good WR if that were the case.

 

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Because usually stats trump feelings, as in facts trumps fantasy.

 

Since people "feels" they are doing good, if they complain about something they fail at, and you can shove their stats in their faces so they can see why they suck, its usually not that nice.

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for people saying win rate means nothing because your team can just throw games. remember that you are the only constant common denominator in every game you play. whilst there are games that simply cannot be carried (ive lost games with 9 kills before and 2.6k base xp) the simple fact is that all evens out over so many games where you are the only person in your team that never changes.

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45 minutes ago, Milan_G_ said:

about winrate its very easy why has no real value. look this:

 

an TOP player will do 110.000damage and survive each of 10 battles.

but morons team, will loose 10x

 

result? 

 

this top player winrate is ZERO winrate.

 

thatsway is winrate a nothing number.  i already post solutions for this ( for top players on team in loosed battle) 

exact reason why you don't take 10 games as a "real" reading of your stats

 

stats show your "gameplay" over a long period even if you had a epic or awful weekend

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It's not the stats that are disliked. It's the  way people use them to attack other players.

 

If you use your stats to become better, then that is great for you. If it took another player to point you towards it, that's fine too. And if that was all it needed for you to become better then that's fantastic. But what worked for you, doesn't have to work for everyone.

 

There are some players who only see tomatos and automatically discredit that players opinion over it. If that opinion has any merit is no longer checked, as stats trump everything for those players. In the end WoWs is a game. It is build so we all can enjoy it no matter how good or how bad we are. Not everyone has the skills to improve themself to the levels some stat trolls demand they should have.

 

Simply don't attack players for their stats. There are constructive ways to point out their weaknesses. Ways that would maybe really help them instead of simply swinging the stats-cludge. If a player doesn't want to improve then that might be annoying to us but it isn't our problem. Wargaming build this game to allow such players to play too.

 

Enjoy the game. That's what it's build for and something you can share with everyone. Your success and your enjoyment of that is your own personal thing and nobody has the right to tell you how that is right or wrong.

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Win rate is flawed but it’s the best we have. It’s hard to take a loss when you’ve killed all 4 of the enemy Dds and have 150k damage.

Or how in my fairly new Kronstadt I did 180k of AP damage and still manage to lose.

Ivremeber another one a while ago where I mispositioned my New Mexico and barely managed to touch the enemy team as they lemminged to their deaths on the other side of the map. 

If you’ve played 1000 battles you will have had completely random teams. The only constant is you. From there we can see a pattern.

 

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The problem is with stats is that a very large proportion of the playerbase is casual F2P. They're just playing because they like ships and loud explosions. They literally don't care - the game is no different in their mind than Candy Crush. 

 

The issue here is that they're in game with people who have invested money and time, and put a lot of effort into the game - it's more than just a time sink; it's a hobby they care about.

 

Thus, stats become toxic - they show the good players just how tomato their team is, they generate abuse at bad players, accusations of elitism, focusing of good players by CVs (or arty), etc etc.

 

Its inherent in WGs game designs - planes and tanks are the same. Curiously, it's less of an issue in War Thunder, perhaps because there's a clear boundary in Arcade-Realistic where casuals and dedicated players can avoid each other. 

 

Stats are a very useful measure of how well you're playing, but on balance probably aren't great for the overall harmony of the playerbase.

 

This is from the viewpoint of a tomato ships player, who was also blue tanks in top 10 clan. Currently I look at my stats only to see how tomato I've been playing (mostly tomato, as I'm still on the learning curve having returned after a long break). 

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Win rate at the moment is probably the least accurate. In a game with lots of fresh blood and people learning the game you can still do everything right and have high damage/experience but still consistently loose.

Don't get me wrong that's no excuse for not trying but win rate is the one IMO you have least control over ATM because its not just solely reliant on YOU but your fellow team members as well.

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I think people who say that stats like winrate aren't really showing much about their performance because the team overall plays a role in that too use it as an excuse.

Obviously my winrate has increased since i started caring how i played, not only because of CV. I managed to push my Shimakaze stats in the last 100 battles by 2% from 53% to 55%. I had games where i died in the first minute because of stupid mistakes during those battles and i had games where i had 6 kills and just managed to squeeze the win out of a sure lost game.

 

But having one game with 6 kills, carrying to the win is not a measure. We all have great games every now and then where we say "Wow, i did really good here" but to just say (I did xxxk damage and still lost, therefore winrate isn't a good measure) isn't a good way of looking at it.You don't have those games consistently enough, if you had you would have more success in increasing that winrate.

 

Sometimes having 200k damage done is not enough to win games. If you had 200k damage done during which you killed 3 DDs and 2 Cruisers then losing would be near impossible. But if you have done those 200k by throwing HE at Yamatos or Conquerors who repair that health you obviously have chosen the wrong targets which leads to the enemy team absorbing your efforts while concentrating on winning, making you useless.

Applying damage to the right targets wins the games.

Killing one destroyer and cruiser, having 70k at the end of a match can be enough to win.

Saying that you do consistently well but still don't win because of your team... maybe you are looking at it the wrong way. Are you really contributing enough?

Are you choosing the right targets? Are you sure you are not chasing a kiting cruiser instead of fighting over that cap helping your DD or assisting your BBs that are trying to kite away a greater enemy force near your base?

 

Having some great games does not prove that you are good because you got a Kraken that time and that other time. Managing to recognize what actions lead to your team gaining an advantage and working towards success of those actions i think makes you consistent and will increase your winrate regardless of the team you are with.

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27 minutes ago, Zuihou25 said:

I think people who say that stats like winrate aren't really showing much about their performance because the team overall plays a role in that too use it as an excuse.

 

Yes they do but....ITS not as black and white as that.

But your mentality is positive in accepting the responsibility to improve win rate. This is where people mentally should be.....

 

Your win rate is shared between 11 other players every game, Your damage xp etc is your responsibility and is not influenced by others. You win rate is.

Your statistical results can show an increase in everything Damage, experience, PR (even though PR is a combination of those factors inc win rate) but at the same time win rate can drop whilst all your stats are increasing.

But you are absolutely correct in the choosing the right target has more influence over the overall result in win rate.

But is everyone else choosing the wrong/right target?

 

 

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For those who say stats don't matter.

Why do all the great clan's only take on people with high win rates?.

Because if they didn't matter that much, surely they would take on say a gearing player who had a 40% win rate. Over one which has a 60% win rate.

I think stats do matter but sometimes it doesn't show you the entire picture.

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Vor 3 Minuten, SeaWolf7 sagte:

ITS not as black and white as that.

But your mentality is positive in accepting the responsibility to improve win rate. This is where people mentally should be.....

 

Your win rate is shared between 11 other players every game, Your damage xp etc is your responsibility and is not influenced by others. You win rate is.

Your statistical results can show an increase in everything Damage, experience, PR (even though PR is a combination of those factors inc win rate) but at the same time win rate can drop whilst all your stats are increasing.

But you are absolutely correct in the choosing the right target has more influence over the overall result in win rate.

But is everyone else choosing the wrong/right target?

 

 

Not necessarily. It's about opening opportunities.

Let's say i'm the only one choosing priority targets and succeeding while my team shoots at whatever is around the priority target, Priority dies suddenly the targets around that priority are the new important targets before they start kiting away meaning i opened up the opportunity for my teams damage to suddenly turn meaningful since the most influencial opponent on the flank just died.

 

It's like opening the right door for your team to move through.

A teammate that is bad at choosing targets and shooting is STILL shooting and hitting something. To open the game for these players damage to transfer to damage that is winning a cap, flank, half of the map is what leads to success.

 

Therefore i believe that if you are the one doing the right plays at the right time while your team is asleep.. it can be the one factor that turns the game around into a win. This leads to increasing your winrate.

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1 hour ago, Milan_G_ said:

about winrate its very easy why has no real value. look this:

 

an TOP player will do 110.000damage and survive each of 10 battles.

but morons team, will loose 10x

 

result? 

 

this top player winrate is ZERO winrate.

 

thatsway is winrate a nothing number.  i already post solutions for this ( for top players on team in loosed battle) 

But he will not...

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12 minutes ago, SeaWolf7 said:

Yes they do but....ITS not as black and white as that.

But your mentality is positive in accepting the responsibility to improve win rate. This is where people mentally should be.....

 

Your win rate is shared between 11 other players every game, Your damage xp etc is your responsibility and is not influenced by others. You win rate is.

Your statistical results can show an increase in everything Damage, experience, PR (even though PR is a combination of those factors inc win rate) but at the same time win rate can drop whilst all your stats are increasing.

But you are absolutely correct in the choosing the right target has more influence over the overall result in win rate.

But is everyone else choosing the wrong/right target?

 

 

Every single time i hear someone argue about winrate they say "But there are 11 other players on my team, it depends on them" or "but i can still get 56million kills and lose bcuz my team sucks"

 

Both arguments are equally flawed, as they even out over a large enough sample size, and YOU the player, remain the only constant in your solo winrate.

 

Winrate means nothing over 10 games, but it means everything over 1000 games.

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18 minutes ago, SeaWolf7 said:

Win rate at the moment is probably the least accurate. In a game with lots of fresh blood and people learning the game you can still do everything right and have high damage/experience but still consistently loose.

Don't get me wrong that's no excuse for not trying but win rate is the one IMO you have least control over ATM because its not just solely reliant on YOU but your fellow team members as well.

If you count the WR for a day or even a week, maybe. if you count it for a longer period though, it typically evens out, as it's hardly likely that it is just RNG giving you all the potato teams and giving the good players to the enemy. As @El2aZeR quoted eliastion already up there, there are games beyond your control, but in a good few, our own actions have large enough impact to matter and it is that which over the course of hundreds and thousands of games determines a winrate.

20 minutes ago, Zuihou25 said:

I think people who say that stats like winrate aren't really showing much about their performance because the team overall plays a role in that too use it as an excuse.

Frankly, most people don't care because reflecting on one's own actions is hard in general, it seems. Blaming the team, blaming RNG, blaming the ship or, which would be the lulziest, blaming a WG conspiracy against oneself (those folks sadly exist) is easier. Then peple go by how things feel, not how they are and obviously it'll be unlikely that there'll be any change for the better.

 

So, for most it is that they cannot be bothered. Call it ignorance or call it laid-back attitude, whatever, when you sit at 4k games with 44% WR, it's the cold hard truth that you aren't being very useful most of the time and whether one accepts or denies that, that fact won't change. One thing that does obviously get more frowned on would be when you take personal stats just as an argument to dismiss people as idiots from the get go. While it typically can hold true that a player with no good results has not much of an idea what they are talking about in game mechanics, just because one is unicum doesn't mean one's good at analysing information either. And while you'll encounter potatoes who won't listen to any sensible argument, spend long enough here and you'll also meet those pretentious folks who'll tell you that unless you get purple stats, your opinion is basically trash.

7 minutes ago, SeaWolf7 said:

ITS not as black and white as that.

But your mentality is positive in accepting the responsibility to improve win rate. This is where people mentally should be.....

 

Your win rate is shared between 11 other players every game, Your damage xp etc is your responsibility and is not influenced by others. You win rate is.

Your statistical results can show an increase in everything Damage, experience, PR (even though PR is a combination of those factors inc win rate) but at the same time win rate can drop whilst all your stats are increasing.

But you are absolutely correct in the choosing the right target has more influence over the overall result in win rate.

But is everyone else choosing the wrong/right target?

 

 

Even if they don't on average if you don't pull your weight, you lose more often than you win, if you carry, you'll win more often. As was said before, you are the only constant factor in all your games. And if PR and damage increase (note that PR is partly based on damage, so obviously higher damage will result in higher PR even on constant WR), while WR stagnates, you might have found a different playstyle that farms more damage, but has no more impact on the team success than what you did before.

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Ill just quote a post i made about winrate a while back:

On 9/13/2018 at 9:53 AM, thiextar said:

Solo wr means how big of an impact that a player has on the outcome of the match. That is a pure skill meassure, nothing else. And it has nothing to do with what teams you get, as that becomes completeley irrelevant over a large enough sample size.

 

Let me give you an example from the magical world of dice throwing:

 

400px-Lawoflargenumbers.svg.png

This is how the average value of dice rolls equalizes to the average value on the dice over a large enough sample size, in exactly the same way that winrate stabilize with sample size. So this chart straightens out on the dice averege value over a large enough quantity of rolls, lets translate this avarege value of 3,5 into a 50% winrate.

 

Now lets translate this into matchmaking:

 

the dice rolls determines victories, where 1-3 is a loss, and 4-6 is a win, very random right, how could one player possibly do anything meaningful to impact such randomness?

 

Lets add a constant factor of 0,5 that we add to the total every time we throw the dice, now all of a sudden, the graph starts to stabilize on an avarege value of "4" .

 

 

That 0,5 constant, is in this example nothing other than player skill. This number can be positive and very high if you are a good player, and negative if you are  a bad player.

 

This is the simplest way i can explain why your skill has such an influence over your winrate, since over a large sample size, all of the other ranndomness cancels out, and the only constant left, is you. Sure, that 0,5 constant is not enough to carry every loss, its not even enought to cary most of the losses, but it is enough to carry some losses, and its enough to not throw some wins, and thats what ultimately makes it the best measure of skill in the game.

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I was thinking about how winrates is worked out last night while playing COOP match. I read somebody say that COOP matches are full of bots and are FIXED so you win about 97% of the COOP matches you play. So if a person plays mostly COOP matches, then that would mean their winrate is going to be high if it's true that over 90% of the games are rigged for you to win. That if COOP matches are worked out into your winrate, that is?

 

If they are worked out into the winrate. Then I'm guessing all a person really needs do is play COOP all the time more than RANDOMS to get a high winrate.

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2 hours ago, Milan_G_ said:

about winrate its very easy why has no real value. look this:

 

an TOP player will do 110.000damage and survive each of 10 battles.

but morons team, will loose 10x

 

result? 

 

this top player winrate is ZERO winrate.

 

thatsway is winrate a nothing number.  i already post solutions for this ( for top players on team in loosed battle) 

 

This is [edited] and just an excuse from average player who thinks damage > everything

If you do 110k damage each game but lose them all, you are not a TOP player and you have done something wrong during those games

 

A TOP player will still manage to win >50% of his games even with morons on his team but he won't get the 110k damage or survive in each of them

as wining a game need much more than just staying alive until the last minute and farming damage and blaming others for losing it

 

Actually this is the whole thing why WN6, WN8 or Personal Rating became a thing, because some average players did't feel that their skill is not valued because of their low winrate.

And now those ratings favour damage more than victories, scewing those people that favour winning a game over farming stats

 

 

Quote

So if a person plays mostly COOP matches, then that would mean their winrate is going to be high

Coop, Random and Ranked have their own statistics, playing more coop does not affect your overall Winrate

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People dont like feeling they are bellow someone, so they argue that the whole thing is irrelevant. I personally like to look at other stats, like for example I have been trying to increase my spotting in damage ect. Though trying to increase your avrg dmg over all seems to be a good way to gradually improve in most ships! On the Road to being purple in everything! 

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10 minutes ago, thiextar said:

Every single time i hear someone argue about winrate they say "But there are 11 other players on my team, it depends on them" or "but i can still get 56million kills and lose bcuz my team sucks"

 

 

I am not one of these people, I try everytime to win and influence the game in a positive way, I  was simply trying to state that it is not ALLWAYS  your fault if team wants to hide behind as many islands as possible, lemming to one side of the map, yolo or suicide run because Tea's Ready in the middle of a game...

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2 minutes ago, SeaWolf7 said:

I am not one of these people, I try everytime to win and influence the game in a positive way, I  was simply trying to state that it is not ALLWAYS  your fault if team wants to hide behind as many islands as possible, lemming to one side of the map, yolo or suicide run because Tea's Ready in the middle of a game...

Its not always your fault if you lose a game, but it is always your fault if you have a bad winrate with >500 battles of sample size.

'

Maybe that is what you meant tho.

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