*RANT* about moving from Lightening to Jutland

[_Teob_]

On 12/21/2018 at 1:56 PM, Dosenoeffner82 said:

If we are talking about raw damage, yes IFHE is totally mandatory. I bet my avg. Damage would be at least 15-20k higher with IFHE, because I could better damage Cruisers and BBs wich are too angled for the AP.

 

But to do my job as a DD (contesting Caps, harassing other DDs, denying areas by shere "where is he?!"), I never felt like missing it....but to be honest, I also never tryed it. ;)

Shure in a 1 v 1 of 2 Jutlands or Darings of SKILLED Players, the no IFHE one would loose big time. But in real life a 1v1 does rarely exist. So pushing nose in into a Jut/Daring without IFHE will minimize the Damage taken from him, but no one stops the rest of the Team from shredding you (Hydro Spot). So the wisest thing you could do is retreat...and thats already a win for the one sitting in the Brit DD. Getting 2-3k more Damage into the fleeing enemy DD with IFHE shure ist a nice plus, but if it wont kill him it wont matter that much.

 

In that same situation one could argue, that those 2-3k more damage while the enemy is fleeing could have been dealt during the first 3-4 salvos with AP where the IFHE guy conveniently shot HE.

 

But how you turn it, with or without IFHE Jut and Daring are monsters in and around the Cap.

 

So what happens after you hopefully acquired control over your Cap or your Flank (wich might already lead to a Victory all by itself)?

 

Without IFHE I am looking for opportunities. Torp BBs, hunt remaining DDs, use my strong AP against unsuspecting Cruisers and BBs sailing broadside(that can be a lot of damage in a short amount of time) and of course Heal up a good ammont of the Damage taken.

 

With IFHE this might change a lot, since I can farm damage so much more easily, but is this extra Damage a game changer?

 

At least as far I can remember, I never lost a match with the Jut, because I could not do enough constant Damage to an enemy, but I won matches because of the control I was able to create with it.

 

 

 

It's not just damage. This is what I always strikes me as odd when discussing this. The point is as a slow DD, you want to do as much dmg as possible in a very short amount of time. Not only to get the kill but also to minimize the damage you take in return.

I also have a 65% solo WR in the Daring over 200+ games. I am not just talking about damage farming here.

But hey, like I keep saying, I am not trying to convince people of anything. In fact, as far as I am concerned, I'd rather nobody here take IFHE in case I run into you.

 

13 hours ago, CPL_Sivi said:

Wanted to stop the line at lightning but now u almost convinced me to get the slowest dd in a history of wows. Slow and no boost... Against a ton of radars and hydros. How do u overcome that? Ifhe or no ifhe is a lesser problem from my point of view... How do u survive a stealth radaring worcester just behind the cap u must take under control. With other dds i just turn and run while using some wasd hacks to throw aim. When full astern hit instant speed of light button and ur home free. But jutland has no option there...

 

So let's get something out of the way: if you are nose in to a stealth radaring cruiser, in open waters, you will most likely die.

That said, the advice I would give to you is the same I give to everyone else, which is, don't tunnelvision on caps. It's not worth risking your ship for a cap that you can get 2 mins later.

 

[CPL_Sivi]

Basicaly u saying i must think ahead, employ paranoia that radar is waiting behind every cap and play smart and patient...?

[ollonborre]

On 12/24/2018 at 5:25 PM, CPL_Sivi said:

Basicaly u saying i must think ahead, employ paranoia that radar is waiting behind every cap and play smart and patient...?

That is sort of standard DD gameplay at high tiers. If the radars are unaccounted for always assume they are going to ruin your day in particular. So you either play passive, try to spot and wait until the radar ships are found. Or you try to bait the radar by going into a cap or position where you are hard to hit/got an escape route and then go back once radar is gone.

[CPL_Sivi]

On 12/25/2018 at 6:59 PM, ollonborre said:

That is sort of standard DD gameplay at high tiers. If the radars are unaccounted for always assume they are going to ruin your day in particular. So you either play passive, try to spot and wait until the radar ships are found. Or you try to bait the radar by going into a cap or position where you are hard to hit/got an escape route and then go back once radar is gone.

Dammit. I like to think less, my wife is in charge of thinking in our family and she doesnt play wows. I guess i need to play bbs then. 😁

[MRGTB]

On 12/24/2018 at 4:25 PM, CPL_Sivi said:

Basicaly u saying i must think ahead, employ paranoia that radar is waiting behind every cap and play smart and patient...?

Well that's pretty much the way it goes at T10 level. Cruisers with radars will tend to head towards cap also to detect anything inside it. Better like you mentioned to skirt around the edge of cap at first and see what pops up spotted, hope you are outside radar range. Because rushing into cap usually ends up with yourself spotted and killed fast by radar ships. Cruiser with  a radar and 12 guns that fire every 5 seconds is not an easy task to escape you not being killed in a DD, even when you smoke up if he's only about 8k away from you.

 

[affie]

This thread turned out to be something different than I expected when I clicked on it, grinding my way towards the RN dakka-dakka. 

 

There have been plenty opinions made and I've been trying to follow the topic. 

 

The first thing that strikes me is that OP probably would do much better results with his playstyle in a Khaba, or any Russian destroyer. And I find it sad that he doesn't listen to more experienced players recommendations when asking for it in the forum, that is his loss but my gold mine. 

 

The second thing I would like to point out is how many of the replying players seem to fail to understand and explain that the amazing AP doesn't work in combination with OPs playstyle. Firing light 113 mm shells against a Yamato from 14.7 km away will barely scratch the paint, if even that much so he is forced to use HE to get some damage done, be it with fires.

 

I admit I would probably have very high salt levels and opinions about OP if he played like that in my team since you expect a player at T9 to understand how DDs can win games by playing the objective. But it is a free to play game meaning that you better expect the unexpected. Some times you just have to carry harder, sometimes even the best player can potato hard... 

[HMS_Kilinowski]

2 hours ago, affie said:

The first thing that strikes me is that OP probably would do much better results with his playstyle in a Khaba, or any Russian destroyer. And I find it sad that he doesn't listen to more experienced players recommendations when asking for it in the forum, that is his loss but my gold mine. 

 

The second thing I would like to point out is how many of the replying players seem to fail to understand and explain that the amazing AP doesn't work in combination with OPs playstyle. Firing light 113 mm shells against a Yamato from 14.7 km away will barely scratch the paint, if even that much so he is forced to use HE to get some damage done, be it with fires.

That is basically one of the key suggestions I would give the OP. Whenever you start a new line, read about its play style in forums and watch some videos to understand, how the line works. One cannot force a play style opon a ship and expect the ship to miraculously change into a ship excelling at that style. You can stick with a ship you like and are good in or you go through the adventure of trying new lines, but then the ship is given and you need to adapt to the ship, not the other way round.

 

On 12/16/2018 at 8:28 PM, MRGTB said:

Tell you what, this is ridiculous and you obviously expect that people who play the British DD (mainly Brits) will fork out money on doubloons to redo all the skills again once you get to the Jutland.

First of all, the game would be boring if any higher tier ship was just a bigger faster stronger version of its predecessors. Part of the challenge is that every ship is slightly different in playstyle and features even within a line. So why are you so fixated on the idea that a line must be grinded using one single captain? Why do you see it as forking out money? You can reset your captain skills during clan battle for free. You alternatively can be positive about the fact that the RN-collection provides your with a perma camo for the Lightning. Such a camo normally costs doubloons, it's for free if you finish the collection. So WG at least hasn't been greedy here. And it makes perfect sense to leave your captain on the Lightning and keep it, it's a nice ship. At some point you will get a fresh 10-point captain for your Jutland, or you already have that captain in your reserve. If all fails, there is one in the arsenal now and in the Dunkirk crates. So you just use it on the Jutland.

 

And finally a piece of general advice. When I plan to keep a captain for the entire line, I don't look at the current ship, I plan ahead and find out, what skills the T10-ship needs. I then slowly build up my captain with that end result in mind. That sometimes means using less useful skills in mid-tiers. You try to avoid reskills, so you need to accept the captain is not tailored to every ship. This is basically what you do in any RPG, where you don't blindly put points into strength or stamina into what is supposed to be a level 99 magician someday. You read a tutorial and plan ahead.

So I told you a variety of ways: free reskills, unique captains or planning ahead. You got no reason to rant. If you need doubloons for reskills, you are likely too lazy to do your homework.

[MRGTB]

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You alternatively can be positive about the fact that the RN-collection provides your with a perma camo for the Lightning.

I have the perma camo for the Lightning already from doing the RN collection, I had it when I moved from the Lightning to the Jutland, and had Jack Dunkirk as a special captain on it. I only really decided to move to the Jutland because the torps are 10k and not 8k like on the Lightning. Normally, I will stop at T8 level anyway because it's the same model of play as WOT. In that, after T8 ships it then costs you credits to play them - unless it uses a premium camo (which I would probably would have bought for the Jutland had I liked it).

 

But now I also have the Cossack since that has 10k torps. So I'm happy to stick with the Cossack as a premium that makes money playing it at T8 and not take the Brit tech tree any further past the Jutland. Also, I have the Japanese Asashio B premium DD, which honestly I prefer to play over any of the normal Brit DD's with lesser range torps, plus it has 127mm guns.

 

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Why do you see it as forking out money?

 

To be clear, as this has been said a few times now. Buying camo's and ships is not an issue for me, you can check my stats and see the different premium ships I've bought in the few months only playing the game. I work and can afford to buy anything sold in-game. It was simply about the gun issue I complained about and the fact you need to redo all skills for that ship to use IFHE after T8. And to be fair, most people that start a tech tree are not going to look at what the T9/T10 ship needs "skill wise" further down the line - not at the very start of doing a tech tree. Most don't even know if they will even like that nations ships and end up doing the whole tech tree right through to T10. So why would most even think that far ahead?

 

I mentioned the money doing it because it just looked like a greedy "cash grab" on WG part. Expecting people to buy doubloons at T9 level to redo the skills. I didn't know you could redo the skills for free with XP before, I though the only way to do it when starting this thread was by buying doubloons - until later told you can switch from doubloons to XP instead (for free) to redo skills. So that is not an issue now, I was wrong on that one.

[affie]

58 minutes ago, MRGTB said:

Most don't even know if they will even like that nations ships and end up doing the whole tech tree right through to T10.

This is true, and I can follow your logic to the point that you never know what you gonna like, but if you are curious you look up the wiki, as you did. 

 

I can also accept that the RN top tier flawor is applied a little to late compared to other ships, German hydro, IJN gunboats, USN hybrid-destroyers, very radar ship, maybe the T8 should have been a 113 mm equipped ship as well since it is more accessible, the Lightning is half a transfer with the 360 degrees turret, but no heal and no guns. 

 

There are however more lines that may need to rebuild their captains or adjust their playatyle when reaching higher tiers. Like Russian CL turning into battleship Moskva, and they have the Kirov at T5 already messing with builds, so this is not a unique problem for RN destroyers. 

 

1 hour ago, MRGTB said:

I have the perma camo for the Lightning already from doing the RN collection,

I also have this camo and plan to keep my lightning with it, since it has the possibility to compete with Benson/Loyang as the most versatile destroyer at T8.

 

You mention you are using Jack Dunkirk on your Lightning, how low cooldown do you get the time between smokes, can you perma-smoke?

[MRGTB]

1 hour ago, affie said:

You mention you are using Jack Dunkirk on your Lightning, how low cooldown do you get the time between smokes, can you perma-smoke?

I don't have the Lightning now. I have no need for it with me only using the Cossack premium DD in the RN DD line. I also, a bit stupid really. Got rid of Jack Dunkirk because the Cossack comes with it's own captain (without those skill perks of course). But used that captain that came with Cossack instead because he's actually named for that ship in particular. Whereas putting Jack on the Cossack, he would always still show as being trained for a different ship, even though it makes no real difference. So don't know about that, I use the paid modules to speed them all up for everything anyway on the Cossack - with it being a premium, I don't need try and make money out the ship. Already have 40 million in bank , lol. So let the money earned from playing it pay for the better modules used now instead in each game.

[affie]

1 hour ago, MRGTB said:

I don't have the Lightning now. I have no need for it with me only using the Cossack premium DD in the RN DD line. I also, a bit stupid really. Got rid of Jack Dunkirk because the Cossack comes with it's own captain (without those skill perks of course).

I thought you liked the Lightning and its playstyle and went back to it. You should consider it, using the same captain on Lightning and Cossack will make him gather experience faster and when at 19 points he will gather elite commander experience that can be used on any captain for improving or retraining. I intend using my Lightning even after the grind same as I do with my Fletcher for fun and for upcoming ranked gameplay. 

 

Don't know if you can buy back Jack Dunkirk with coal from arsenal if you sold him by accident, otherwise maybe you can buy his brother Bert whom I intend to put on my RN cruisers. 

[MRGTB]

I already play the Cossack and Asashio B. It's enough trying to grind out the skills on them two DD ships,  plus no point training a captain between the Lightning and Cossack really, the latter ship is a premium that trains skills faster anyhow. It has a fast fire rate same as Lightning, but with 10k torps and not 8k.

 

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Don't know if you can buy back Jack Dunkirk with coal from arsenal if you sold him by accident, otherwise maybe you can buy his brother Bert whom I intend to put on my RN cruisers.

No, I didn't buy him with coal. I got Jack Dunkirk for doing the RN missions, or maybe it was the RN collections. I have done the first 2 RN collections. But see only Bert is listed to buy now like you say. 

[affie]

8 hours ago, MRGTB said:

I already play the Cossack and Asashio B. It's enough trying to grind out the skills on them two DD ships,  plus no point training a captain between the Lightning and Cossack really, the latter ship is a premium that trains skills faster anyhow. It has a fast fire rate same as Lightning, but with 10k torps and not 8k.

You totally missed my point, the point was that if you use the same captain on Lightning as on Cossack you will be able to accumulate captain experience faster due to being able to take the first win of the day bonus 2 times on the same captain. I use the same captain on Kamikaze, Shininome and Akatsuki, getting first daily win bonus 3 times on one captain, and accumulate commander experience faster that way. 

 

Regarding the Jack Dunkirk I got mine from missions as well, but didn't know if he was able to be bought back if you accidently dismissed him when selling the ship he was on... 

[MRGTB]

32 minutes ago, affie said:

You totally missed my point, the point was that if you use the same captain on Lightning as on Cossack you will be able to accumulate captain experience faster due to being able to take the first win of the day bonus 2 times on the same captain. I use the same captain on Kamikaze, Shininome and Akatsuki, getting first daily win bonus 3 times on one captain, and accumulate commander experience faster that way. 

Aye okay, see what mean in that.

 

32 minutes ago, affie said:

Regarding the Jack Dunkirk I got mine from missions as well, but didn't know if he was able to be bought back if you accidently dismissed him when selling the ship he was on... 

Nope, Jack is not for sale in the Arsenal page after letting him go. But not sure that he ever was listed in the arsenal page for sale, thought only Bert Dunkirk was before I got Jack? Not sure, but didn't think Jack was listed there anyway and can only be got the way we got him.

[RUSSIANBlAS]

Jutland AP is insane, aim high and it damages anything at any range and any angle...

 

With the reload module you fire every 3 seconds. Don't even need BFT and every salvo can do 1k or more damage. 

 

No idea what WG have done to balance the AP but it seems like a super shell. Doesn't over pen DDs yet still pens anything else when aiming high.

 

[Soft_Kitty_Warm_Kitty]

4 hours ago, Negativvv said:

Jutland AP is insane, aim high and it damages anything at any range and any angle...

 

With the reload module you fire every 3 seconds. Don't even need BFT and every salvo can do 1k or more damage. 

 

No idea what WG have done to balance the AP but it seems like a super shell. Doesn't over pen DDs yet still pens anything else when aiming high.

 

Agreed the AP on the Jutland & Daring is very good but HE plus IFHE is needed too, there are situations when no matter how good your AP is, it will either start to bounce or shatter depending on the target/armour.

 

Please don't give out that AP is all that you need, even though you didn't say that, that is sort of how it comes across (or so it appears to me, no disrespect intended), the statement above needs to be qualified with the HE. 

 

Regards

 

SKWK

[RUSSIANBlAS]

11 minutes ago, Soft_Kitty_Warm_Kitty said:

Agreed the AP on the Jutland & Daring is very good but HE plus IFHE is needed too, there are situations when no matter how good your AP is, it will either start to bounce or shatter depending on the target/armour.

 

Please don't give out that AP is all that you need, even though you didn't say that, that is sort of how it comes across (or so it appears to me, no disrespect intended), the statement above needs to be qualified with the HE. 

 

Regards

 

SKWK

Well our clan recommended Daring build contains IFHE but for random bashing I might do without it. Will need more testing I guess as I still want the obligatory CE and RPF, if I take IFHE then it means no SI in the skills.

[Soft_Kitty_Warm_Kitty]

1 minute ago, Negativvv said:

Well our clan recommended Daring build contains IFHE but for random bashing I might do without it. Will need more testing I guess as I still want the obligatory CE and RPF, if I take IFHE then it means no SI in the skills.

 

Yep, I had to drop RPF (which I take on most of my DD's if they have enough points on their captains) as I found that there were too many times in my grind with the Jutland/Daring that I just couldn't do the damage I wanted/expected and also at tiers 8/9/10 you find that a lot (not all) of the players know to angle against T9/10 British DD's to stop the full pen of the AP rounds, this means that HE & IFHE are mandatory if you still want to do some damage.

 

Not trying to teach you to suck egg's (I know you are a much better player than me and your clan too) but people like me read these forums and if it isn't spelled out in big letters sometimes, then it can easily be over looked/missed or just be one of those facts that hey, AP is fantastic on the T9/10's, so I can use my 4 points (IFHE) on something else.  Perhaps I missing something here and some people will get great results from non-ifhe HE but I think the majority of us average joes need it. 

 

PS - Keep up the informative posts on here Negativv, you always bring a lot of useful information/knowledge to these discussions 

 

SKWK

[Dosenoeffner82]

So after respeck of my Daring captain to IFHE, damage Numbers went up....but just because I were able to do some extra chip damage to BBs and cruisers!

 

But in the End, it didnt help me to actually win the games. I still totally humiliated other DDs by shooting AP at them, just as well as cruisers and BBs showing broadside. I may have done a few thousand damage extra on fleeing DDs by using HE, but if I just used HE all the time that would not have mattered at all, because I would have lost out on so much damage before by not using the AP.

 

Especially looking forward to Ranked, I will definitely keep IFHE specced, because, we will see much more well angled ships in there, so it will make a bit of a difference there. But for random battles, its not a gamechanger for me!

 

To be effective in Jutland and Daring, u just have to learn how to use this ridiculous strong AP. If not, you just wont be able to compete, because IFHE spam is not her special strength...more like a ok fallback plan.

[Hirohito]

On 12/16/2018 at 9:56 PM, principat121 said:

Dude...

 

Your stats on your DD look like this:

 

ColonelPete achieve this:

 

 

I dont think that you could teach him anything about DD play at all.

I went for PM instead of PT, dunno if that was a mistake but I really dread having modules break in a critical situation.
So far it seems to work out allright as I try to stay undetected and resume stealth asap if I do get spotted (apart from when I'm knife fighting other DDs).

I also assume that I will get shot on as soon as I'm spotted, and since I currently play british DDs the "PT trick" (for knowing when someone launched torps on me) is of little practical use since I usually have the long duration hydro up and running anyway.

Is that a mistake?
Do modules break a lot without PM?
My stats so far are allright with DDs, but  on the other hand I have very little experience in playing them.