*RANT* about moving from Lightening to Jutland

[Aotearas]

I like how this thread started with OP apparently having no clue about how HE penetration works and then just continued to pile on uninformed nonsense, half-knowledge and willful ignorance despite people telling him what the problem is (or as it turned out, lots of problems coming together in one giant package).

 

 

If you don't care about stats or whatever, why did you come here to complain? Doing damage or not, winning or not, etc. is just stats in the end. If you don't care, why bother complaining about it? Or do you simply not care about stats the moment someone uses them as a sign that you're doing something horribly wrong?

[principat121]

17 hours ago, MRGTB said:

Sold the ship now.

Just the usual British rubbish that Wargaming like to churn out.... far better other DD to spend money than this ship.

So, instead of improving and overcoming your lacks in knowledge and skill to achieve reasonable results, you simply gave up!

The easy coward way of resolving problems.

[MRGTB]

57 minutes ago, Aotearas said:

I like how this thread started with OP apparently having no clue about how HE penetration works and then just continued to pile on uninformed nonsense

Which is utter nonsense because I do know that IFHE can improve the pen of HE shells at cost of losing some fire chance. What I didn't expect is that the HE shells fired from the DD (after previous DD in the UK line) not needing IFHE for the HE shells to be effective. Is that the HE shells from this T9 ships would be so terrible without IFHE used.

 

It wasn't about me not knowing. It was about training a captain to suit the previous DD's with no IFHE needed on them. Now suddenly it's a "must have" skill for T9 and T10 ships in the same line. Sure, I could redo all the skills - but to jump from the T8 DD without IFHE to T9 and discover that the ships HE is pretty much useless is what was somewhat annoying, after spending what, in total around 14-15 million hard earned credits to fully kit the ship out.

 

Bottom line... if you don't have IFHE skill playing the British DD line past T8 and don't want redo all captain skills again to include it. Don't go past T8 in the British DD line, because you have no option but having redo all the skill to include IFHE for T9 and T10. There is no ifs or butts about that.

[principat121]

12 minutes ago, MRGTB said:

Now suddenly it's a "must have" skill for T9 and T10 ships in the same line.

As written multiple times before: IHFE is not a must-have on hightier british DD!

You can achieve great results without this skill! I averaged 70k over 6 games without IFHE.

 

I wonder why you are so keen to ignore that?

 

Ignorance again?

[MRGTB]

Just now, principat121 said:

As written multiple times before: IHFE is not a must-have on hightier british DD!

You can achieve great results without this skill! I averaged 70k over 6 games without IFHE.

 

I wonder why you are so keen to ignore that?

 

Ignorance again?

Rubbish!

[principat121]

Just now, MRGTB said:

Rubbish!

What?

There were at least two or three players in this thread stating that this ships is playable without IFHE.

But you ignored all of them!

Why?

[_Teob_]

5 minutes ago, principat121 said:

What?

There were at least two or three players in this thread stating that this ships is playable without IFHE.

But you ignored all of them!

Why?

 

For what it's worth, I think that IFHE is mandatory.

Can it be played without it? Yes, but only if it's until you have enough captain points to get it.

 

The OP does have a point - it really is dumb to need it after t8.

[Mr_Tayto]

This thread has been fantastic, I'd like to thank the OP in particular for the lols.

 

You're allowed not to understand the game, you're allowed to be confused by the mechanics, but for Christs' sake screaming nonsense into a tornado of truth is just going that extra mile to be a potato.

[Aotearas]

26 minutes ago, MRGTB said:

Which is utter nonsense because I do know that IFHE can improve the pen of HE shells at cost of losing some fire chance. What I didn't expect is that the HE shells fired from the DD (after previous DD in the UK line) not needing IFHE for the HE shells to be effective. Is that the HE shells from this T9 ships would be so terrible without IFHE used.

 

It wasn't about me not knowing. It was about training a captain to suit the previous DD's with no IFHE needed on them. Now suddenly it's a "must have" skill for T9 and T10 ships in the same line. Sure, I could redo all the skills - but to jump from the T8 DD without IFHE to T9 and discover that the ships HE is pretty much useless is what was somewhat annoying, after spending what, in total around 14-15 million hard earned credits to fully kit the ship out.

 

Bottom line... if you don't have IFHE skill playing the British DD line past T8 and don't want redo all captain skills again to include it. Don't go past T8 in the British DD line, because you have no option but having redo all the skill to include IFHE for T9 and T10. There is no ifs or butts about that.

 

You could know if you had the basic understanding of how HE penetration works and why the caliber size of 114mm won't let you penetrate 19mm+ of armour as is commonly found on DD hulls at that tier. You could know that 120mm isn't the same as 114mm and that IFHE isn't recommended for no good reason. You may know what IFHE does, but evidently you have no bloody clue as to how to use that or when it's advantageous or even necessary to pick as a skill.

 

As for the nonsense you've been throwing around, the AP on the Jutland is plenty strong enough in contrast to what you've said and can make the Jutland work until you get the skill. Your talk about Priority Target being a useless captain skill was also complete BS because you quite obviously have no clue what that skill even does. You have been spouting nothing but animousity when people told you you're doing things wrong and when people brought up your stats to exemplify the fact you're doing things wrong, you went on a tirade that stats mean nothing to you and that you don't need to have great stats to do simple things ... yet for some reason you aren't capable of doing exactly those things yourself because lo and behold, they would actually serve you incredibly well if you tried using it on a non-IFHE Jutland.

 

The only thing you've done here is flaunt your inadequacy and rage against the heavens because the game didn't meet your ignorance-fueled expectations and instead of accepting advice and criticism you've stomped your feet in juvenile indignation rather than try to improve.

 

The best thing however is your bleedingly obvious hypocrisy about the cost of respeccing the captain. Rather than pay the handful doubloons, you spend even more money to buy the Cossack, presumably because your subpar build works on that. You literally spend more money being contrarian than it would've cost you to make captain build work (which btw would also improve the builds synergy with the other RN DDs).

[principat121]

2 minutes ago, _Teob_ said:

For what it's worth, I think that IFHE is mandatory.

Can it be played without it? Yes, but only if it's until you have enough captain points to get it.

I tend to disagree. I tested this ship with 10, 14 and 19 points spent. Standard 10 point build. Standard 10 point build plus RPF. And for 19 points I added SI and AR. And it worked (for me): 70k average while testing.

 

But I agree that with IFHE your HE-performance improved a lot and this ship can be played more versatile (esp. with less experienced players with not maxed captains).

[_Teob_]

1 minute ago, principat121 said:

I tend to disagree. I tested this ship with 10, 14 and 19 points spent. Standard 10 point build. Standard 10 point build plus RPF. And for 19 points I added SI and AR. And it worked (for me): 70k average while testing.

 

But I agree that with IFHE your HE-performance improved a lot and this ship can be played more versatile (esp. with less experienced players with not maxed captains).

 

Fair enough - I would just point out that 6 matches, while they give you an idea, are not quite adequate testing.

 

To be totally honest, I hardly played the Jutland so maybe with the lower tier MM it works but I have tested the Daring extensively: over 200 matches and at the time I believe I am first or second on the EU server by performance (100k+ avg damage) and at least for the t10, IFHE is 100% mandatory.

[rnat]

I'd argue the importance of IFHE on those ships rises with the avg skill level of your opposition. (disclaimer i'm only at the Lighning, so i've only played against them so far)

But i've happily angled bow/a*s in in other dds several times spamming down non-IFHE Darings taking minimal dmg.

So against enemies that know what they are doing you're very reliant on ambushes or your teams fire-support without it.

[MRGTB]

4 hours ago, principat121 said:

I tend to disagree. I tested this ship with 10, 14 and 19 points spent. Standard 10 point build. Standard 10 point build plus RPF. And for 19 points I added SI and AR. And it worked (for me): 70k average while testing.

 

But I agree that with IFHE your HE-performance improved a lot and this ship can be played more versatile (esp. with less experienced players with not maxed captains).

Without IFHE used you are more or less limited to shooting AP only. So you're shooting yourself in the foot like the other person said by saying you don't need IFHE. Of course you do, unless you only want to have one ammo that is effective for using. An half-assed ship played...

 

What's the point of having two ammo choices, especially when HT is best one used of the two for a DD to start fires with it on BB's. AP won't do you much good fired against BB from it, nor against some cruisers at T10 level. Or, are you now going to say you shouldn't even be shooting at BB's and Cruisers at all, ever?

[MRGTB]

Funny thing is here. I was in a match yesterday, and with a Jutland on my team. I died early and followed him with camera. He ended up fighting another DD one v one and saw him fire off 4 or 5 HT rounds that hit the other DD fighting at close quarters and did ZERO damage to it. Guess he also must not have been using IFHE as well.

 

Read that again what I just said. He hit another DD 4-5 times and did zero damage with HT fired. Guess what? The other DD killed him easy because of it. That player must have thought, WTF, 4 or 5 shots on a DD at close range and no damage????

 

So yeah, you keep defending that the Jutland works fine without IFHE used...

[ColonelPete]

You cannot prevent players from doing mistakes.

Every halfway competent player knows about the HE mechanics and damage saturation and should not be surprised....

[MRGTB]

Yeah but, we're talking about two DD fighting here. And the Jutland doing no damage at all with 4-5 rounds of shots fired. We're not talking shooting a well armoured BB or Cruiser. It was pathetic watching that DD player do that against another DD, and doing it in a T9 DD as well. It's a top level DD, one level short of T10 and can't even pen another DD with 4-5 full HT shots. Meh! Come on, nuff said really...

[ColonelPete]

If you do care about the mechanics, you will suffer by the mechanics....

 

Until a few months ago we had 100mm guns on a Tier VIII DD which were pretty useless without IFHE. Still, everybody halfway interested in the ship made it work. No problem.

[Aotearas]

52 minutes ago, MRGTB said:

What's the point of having two ammo choices, especially when HT is best one used of the two from a DD to start fires with it on BB's. AP won't do you much good fired against BB from it, nor against some cruisers at T10 level, lol. Or are you now going to say you shouldn't even be shooting at BB's and Cruisers at all, ever?

 

Erm ... no.

 

You won't penetrate a battleships mainbelt armour with that AP, but the upper hull is far, far less armoured and can be easily penetrated even by 114mm AP shells if it's a flat enough side. Cruisers have even less armour. You can get 3-4k AP volleys every couple seconds with DD AP shooting at the upper hull or superstructure. That amount of damage can very quickly accumulate to frightening proportions if the BB won't (or if angling priorities take over, can't afford to) angle away from those "puny" DD AP shells.

 

And specifically in a RN DD with its numerous short duration smokes you can exploit such a moment maliciously and with regularity.

 

 

And the small caliber on the Jutland/Daring actually makes the AP very potent against DDs aswell since you won't just overpenetrate everything doing minimal damage. It's even recommended to shoot AP at minimally angled (as in, not autobounce angles) DDs because you deal more damage with AP penetrations than you'd do with HE.

 

Your dismissal of AP as an effective ammunition choice is just another example of you not properly understanding the game mechanics and/or how to apply them in your favour.

 

IFHE is still necessary to use HE effectively and having to play around that is an inconvenient hazzle and challenging even for good players at times, but it's far from making a ship unplayable.

 

 

Plus if you're happy enough to spend money buying the Cossack I fail to understand how you make the argument that you couldn't afford to spend doubloons to reset the captain and then subsequently spec into IFHE (you won't exactly be benefitting much from the added range you get from AFT anyway if your HE basically shatters by default and you won't be able to reliably hit weak armour sections at that kind of range with the 114mm guns' ballistics).

 

 

20 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Until a few months ago we had 100mm guns on a Tier VIII DD which were pretty useless without IFHE. Still, everybody halfway interested in the ship made it work. No problem.

A clanmate of mine hadn't specced his Akizuki into IFHE because he went full AA troll mode on it (he really likes bullying CVs). He still wrecked DDs despite the anemic HE performance (that was before those 100mm guns got the 1/4 HE pen buff) by ripping through broadside DDs with the AP.

And we all know what an IFHE Akizuki or higher higher tier sisters *cough*Harugumo*cough* do to other big ships, even though IFHE isn't even necessary to have those guns perform against DDs anymore.

[LeSnoet]

2 hours ago, Aotearas said:

I like how this thread started with OP apparently having no clue about how HE penetration works and then just continued to pile on uninformed nonsense, half-knowledge and willful ignorance despite people telling him what the problem is (or as it turned out, lots of problems coming together in one giant package).

 

 

If you don't care about stats or whatever, why did you come here to complain? Doing damage or not, winning or not, etc. is just stats in the end. If you don't care, why bother complaining about it? Or do you simply not care about stats the moment someone uses them as a sign that you're doing something horribly wrong?

Don’t ask for logic when you hit the barrier of reasoning. 

[MRGTB]

6 hours ago, Aotearas said:

Plus if you're happy enough to spend money buying the Cossack I fail to understand how you make the argument that you couldn't afford to spend doubloons to reset the captain and then subsequently spec into IFHE (you won't exactly be benefitting much from the added range you get from AFT anyway if your HE basically shatters by default and you won't be able to reliably hit weak armour sections at that kind of range with the 114mm guns' ballistics).

Never said cost was a problem for me to redo skills. It wasn't about that, but the fact no other DD before it requires IFHE. I was happy with my skill layout for Brit DD, now that threw a spanner in the works having to redo all the skills again and lose one 4 pointer I wanted to keep going - in exchange for IFHE instead. It just seems silly to me that once you get to T9 ships the calibre of guns drops needing IFHE skill to be effective, when if anything it should pack better guns of same calibre as the T8.

 

Not stick less calibre guns on T9 and T10 with the "handicap" now that they require IFHE to make them work after you bought the ship. But, that's just my own view... keeping in mind I can do more damage in the Lightning or Cossack without IFHE used at T9 and T10 using HE shells

[BrusilovX]

3 hours ago, Mr_Tayto said:

This thread has been fantastic, I'd like to thank the OP in particular for the lols.

 

You're allowed not to understand the game, you're allowed to be confused by the mechanics, but for Christs' sake screaming nonsense into a tornado of truth is just going that extra mile to be a potato.

I'd like to second the above.  It's been an amusing and at times bewildering read.

 

[Soft_Kitty_Warm_Kitty]

17 hours ago, BrusilovX said:

I'd like to second the above.  It's been an amusing and at times bewildering read.

 

Its just sad that the OP has bothered to come to the forum (had his rant) been given loads of advice, pointers, help etc and still refuses to accept that he's doing something if not wrong then down right counterintuitive to his gameplay.

 

I love the forum, the help, free advice (both good and bad lol), I wish I had found it sooner and been able to put into practise all the simple things you can do to help yourself and your team mates.

 

Come on OP please take the advice offered, anyway best of luck in your choices. 

 

SKWK

[Bazelder]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned here so far is the 'surprise factor' of getting the Jutland and then finding out that it would require IFHE to fully fuction.

As you work your way up a line you always need to plan ahead, know whats coming in terms ship statictics and requierments for capts, this will help you plan your capt skills better and be able to max out the fighting potential of the ships.

 

Also it would seem from your comments that you failed to realise that different DD lines have very different play styles, if you check out you tube vids on the ship line you want to play you will find out what play style that particular nation requiers, from what you have said about your capt skills and the way you play your RN DD's it sounds more like you would be better suited to the Russian line, long range arrasment of BB's and crusers.

 

On a final note please don't dismiss player stats, they are a guide as to how you are performing and can point you in the dirrection that you need to improve, don't look at the WR, rather look at the hit ratio, survival rate and average dmg, these are the stats that will tell you what you can do to improve your play and ultimatly your WR, improve your survival rate and your dmg goes up, improve your hit rate and your dmg and survival rate goes up.

Use the stats to your advantage don't just dismiss them.

[Dosenoeffner82]

On 12/18/2018 at 2:31 PM, _Teob_ said:

 

Fair enough - I would just point out that 6 matches, while they give you an idea, are not quite adequate testing.

 

To be totally honest, I hardly played the Jutland so maybe with the lower tier MM it works but I have tested the Daring extensively: over 200 matches and at the time I believe I am first or second on the EU server by performance (100k+ avg damage) and at least for the t10, IFHE is 100% mandatory.

If we are talking about raw damage, yes IFHE is totally mandatory. I bet my avg. Damage would be at least 15-20k higher with IFHE, because I could better damage Cruisers and BBs wich are too angled for the AP.

 

But to do my job as a DD (contesting Caps, harassing other DDs, denying areas by shere "where is he?!"), I never felt like missing it....but to be honest, I also never tryed it. ;)

Shure in a 1 v 1 of 2 Jutlands or Darings of SKILLED Players, the no IFHE one would loose big time. But in real life a 1v1 does rarely exist. So pushing nose in into a Jut/Daring without IFHE will minimize the Damage taken from him, but no one stops the rest of the Team from shredding you (Hydro Spot). So the wisest thing you could do is retreat...and thats already a win for the one sitting in the Brit DD. Getting 2-3k more Damage into the fleeing enemy DD with IFHE shure ist a nice plus, but if it wont kill him it wont matter that much.

 

In that same situation one could argue, that those 2-3k more damage while the enemy is fleeing could have been dealt during the first 3-4 salvos with AP where the IFHE guy conveniently shot HE.

 

But how you turn it, with or without IFHE Jut and Daring are monsters in and around the Cap.

 

So what happens after you hopefully acquired control over your Cap or your Flank (wich might already lead to a Victory all by itself)?

 

Without IFHE I am looking for opportunities. Torp BBs, hunt remaining DDs, use my strong AP against unsuspecting Cruisers and BBs sailing broadside(that can be a lot of damage in a short amount of time) and of course Heal up a good ammont of the Damage taken.

 

With IFHE this might change a lot, since I can farm damage so much more easily, but is this extra Damage a game changer?

 

At least as far I can remember, I never lost a match with the Jut, because I could not do enough constant Damage to an enemy, but I won matches because of the control I was able to create with it.

 

 

[CPL_Sivi]

Wanted to stop the line at lightning but now u almost convinced me to get the slowest dd in a history of wows. Slow and no boost... Against a ton of radars and hydros. How do u overcome that? Ifhe or no ifhe is a lesser problem from my point of view... How do u survive a stealth radaring worcester just behind the cap u must take under control. With other dds i just turn and run while using some wasd hacks to throw aim. When full astern hit instant speed of light button and ur home free. But jutland has no option there...