*RANT* about moving from Lightening to Jutland

[principat121]

1 minute ago, MRGTB said:

Yeah, Yeah... it always boils down to if a persons stats ain't about 60% then he's at fault. See, it isn't rocket science to aim guns at the weaker upper stucre instead on ships to try and do damage instead. You don't need 50,000 games under your belt you know that, or have a 99% winrate, lol

Your problem has a name: Dunning-Kruger.

Spoiler

The skills you need to produce a right answer are exactly the skills you need to recognize what a right answer is.

 

[MRGTB]

I suggest you go buy the Jutland ship and play it without IFHE used, then come back and post again. Seriously, you would expect without that skill, that the ship is still playable as a tier 9 ship with it's guns. Sorry, but that just isn't the case - unless you want to sail around firing only torps and no guns.

 

You might change your tune if you try it out for yourself to see what I mean....

[ColonelPete]

5 minutes ago, MRGTB said:

I suggest you go buy the Jutland ship and play it without IFHE used, then come back and post again. Seriously, you would expect without that skill, that the ship is still playable as a tier 9 ship with it's guns. Sorry, but that just isn't the case - unless you want to sail around firing only torps and no guns.

 

You might change your tune if you try it out for yourself to see what I mean....

No, you would not expect that. It is pretty obvious that the HE will not work without IFHE. You even read the advice and ignored it.

[principat121]

11 minutes ago, MRGTB said:

I suggest you go buy the Jutland ship and play it without IFHE used, then come back and post again.

I did...

31 minutes ago, principat121 said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Btw:

These are my ST-test results with Jutland WITHOUT the mentioned skill (IFHE):

 

 

Your turn.

[wilkatis_LV]

2 hours ago, MRGTB said:

What fire chance? The Lightning has 9% fire chance

T10 has 49.95% resistance. Then add FP (10%) and DCM 1 (5%) so you end up with 57.4575% resistance at full FP build

Now take Jutlands 8% FC with base reload at 3.5s on 6 guns.

 

That's average of 3.5 fires per min on a fully fire prevention t10 target.

Add in signals and DE to go to 4.8 fires per min.

 

Or when firing at 7s you can go up to average of 7.9 fires per min.

 

 

^ all that is a whole ton of fires without ever needing to penetrate the target

 

2 hours ago, MRGTB said:

Already tried it, just as usless as the HE.

No, it's just you being useless, not the ship / amo

 

2 hours ago, MRGTB said:

Remember, this is a DD not a BB shooting AP shells.

That's the "git gud" part

 

58 minutes ago, MRGTB said:

Priority Target? - waste of a point. You have an X key to pick targets, use it.

Pretty sure you don't have a clue what this skill does, do you?

 

 

---

 

 

Screw it, this guy is too much to bother with. Pointless

[MRGTB]

Jutland has 5 guns, not 6.

 

So redo your maths again.

 

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Jutland

 

Or when firing at 7s you can go up to average of 7.9 fires per min. 

And as said before. That's all well and fine working things out that way, But when your guns register NO DAMAGE at all, how are you starting so many fires at that rate. I just played another battle in the Jutland now. Had a somewhat slightly better result, did 48 shots on target and did 8k damage. But according to your figures with so many shots on target aimed at the upper structure, then I should have more than 8k damage from burns then. I think I had one burn from 48 shots on a Cruiser, its not even a BB

[principat121]

9 minutes ago, MRGTB said:

Jutland has 5 guns, not 6.

So redo your maths again.

That you pick this small and petty detail to pick on, clearly shows that you didn't understand what his post was about.

 

Because the B-Hull of the Jutland has 3x2 turrets. Only the A-Hull has 2x2 and 1x1 turrets.

But hey... these are details... don't bother them... keep your ignorance high!

[MRGTB]

Okay yeah, I just got the ship, obvious with so few games in it yet. So I do have the A hull used, and same with all other upgrades at the minute you can upgrade the ship too better ones. I didn't know the B hull has 6 guns. I don't have it yet, nor looked at what it offers over the A hull.

 

But on another note; you can't seriously work out how many fires should be started etc, not when you have RNG in the game that can change all that with figures worked out.

 

We'll see how things go when the ship is fully upgraded then.

[LeSnoet]

1 hour ago, MRGTB said:

Yep, I did see the guns caliber changes to a lower one. Like I said, I did read WIKI about the Jutland compared to Lightning before buying it. Also of course read that part about the IFHE as well with the Jutland. But you know... I really didn't expect the guns would be so utterly useless without that skill. And of course that means you have spend doubloons on changing all skills. Not an issue like, but here's why I won't below.

 

I'm not doing it because I have BFT and AFT on the Jack Dunkirk captain used and it extends to guns on the Lightning to shooting 14.7 range and also gain faster reload with those two skills (+Concealment) used. So one of those 2 "4 skills" would have to go for IFHE - meaning shooting range is lost and also Fire chance then gets reduced with IFHE put on Jutland to lesser than the Lightning. So I'll go back to Lighting instead.

BFT oké. But AFT, are you on drugs? How the hell are you going to hit something with those arcs? You must be joking. 

 

Jutland is about engagements between 5.5 and 7km, maybe 8, with your guns. 

 

Want go gunboating? Grind out a Khaba

[LeSnoet]

1 hour ago, principat121 said:

No Priority Target?

No Last Stand?

 

God, you need to learn how to play DDs! Really!

 

A good alround 10-pt Captain would look like this:

1. PT
2. LS
3. SE
4. CE

 

Do you know why this is the (almost) standard 10-pt-Captain-build for a DD?

 

 

 

 

PT is a bit overrated imo. When you are spotted as a DD, and have some map-awareness, you know you are going to targeted. 

PM is much more viable. You want to keep your guns and torptubes, right? 

[MRGTB]

1 hour ago, LeSnoet said:

BFT oké. But AFT, are you on drugs? How the hell are you going to hit something with those arcs? You must be joking.

Na, just a case of getting used to ranges is all. I can hit ships from 14.7k in the Lightning repeatedly. More so if it's a BB. Not hard at all. And to be honest, with BFT also that speeds up the reload. It's pretty much like a Cruiser HE spammer.

 

Look at the calibre of guns that fall under BFT and AFT and you'll see DD guns benefit from both because they are inside that smaller 139mm calibre of guns. DD's are the only ship that can have their main battery shooting range extended with AFT because of it. Both Cruisers and BB have main battery guns larger than 139mm. it will also extend and increase the reload of your DD AA guns as well, not that they are much use, well, unless you have a DD with better than average AA. So with a DD you gain on all your guns using BFT and AFT.

 

As for the Jutland. Yeah, I kind of overlooked at first that I don't have all the ship upgrades done yet. Of course that can make a big difference later when you have them. The ship may well be far better when I do have them researched and used, my mistake really, I know that can happen when playing WOT before you fully upgrade a tank to best guns used, etc.

[ColonelPete]

It is not your job to tickle BB.

It is your job to clear caps and take out enemy DD.

When you are finished with that, you can annoy BB, if you want. But you will have more success with torpedos.

[LemonadeWarriorITA]

I am also not a big fan of needing IFHE on ships. However, Jutland is not the first ship in this game that goes from a mediocre ship to a good ship by using IFHE. The Russian light cruisers have this problem as well.

I prefer the HIV where you don’t need IFHE to make it a good boat.

 

It is the way the game mechanics currently are and I don’t think they ll change it (many different gun calibers afterall). Jutland, and Daring, do have improved AP shells so they can do a lot of damage to DDs, but also to the superstructure of battleships or cruisers.

 

If you want to use AFT over IFHE, because you need the range know that HE shells only need to hit to cause fires. Also know that British DDs have super short smoke screens with a fast reload time, so that you don’t need AFT, since repositioning is super easy. You torp a BB, move closer, after he uses his damage control party you pop a smoke and set him on fire.

[_Teob_]

@MRGTB

 

Look, I agree with you. Needing IFHE on a ship after it wasn't needed on any of the previous ships in the line is counter-intuitive and outright silly.

 

That said, I urge you to listen to other players' advice here.

I know you said you don't care about stats, but you clearly care about your performance otherwise you wouldn't be here in the first place.

And even if you are dismissive of stats, I am sure you can recognize the value of looking at what people that get really good results are doing. It's just common sense. I mean, you can say "I am not interested in achieving the same results" but saying "I don't care what their results are" is incredibly unwise.

 

On to the issue at hand, if you have the doubloons, you should change to the standard 10 pt captain spec (mentioned previously in this thread):

PT or PM - I run PT because it helps me know how aggressive I can be. I think that it's an invaluable skill that I use on pretty much all ships.

LS - Mandatory skill on everything apart from certain high skill gunboat builds on certain ships. Theoretically you could run PM and not run LS but it's dicey and hard to pull off

SE - Incredibly important skill in general, more so on RN DDs that have a heal which works as a % based on your health.

CE - Self explanatory

 

After that the very next skill you should take is IFHE (at 14 pts) then AR (at 16 pts) which is a free BFT and TAE when you are on 50% or lower health, and finally BFT (at 19 pts). You could also go with SI here or DE but BFT is generally a better choice.

 

I realize this seems like just copy pasting a spec, but there are two considerations that should be analyzed before you decide to go "off the beaten path" as it were:

1) These cookie-cutter specs are tried and tested so they allow you to learn the game/ship before you start to personalize without fear that you are playing a sub-optimal setup

2) Being unique doesn't mean better. A square peg will not go into a round hole etc. Don't try to be unique just for the sake of being unique.

 

Lastly, on RN DDs, when it's available, you should run the reload mod. Your guns are your main source of damage.

 

[Ysterpyp]

12 hours ago, principat121 said:

Dude...

 

Your stats on your DD look like this:

 

ColonelPete achieve this:

 

 

I dont think that you could teach him anything about DD play at all.

you can blame wg giving t8 toys to babies

 

[Dosenoeffner82]

@MRGTB You are just leaving me scratching my head.

The Jutland was a pleasure to play for me. Clearly visible by my 84% Winrate in it. And surprise, im playing her without IFHE! But how is that possible?!? Answer is AP!. The AP of this Ship is just devastating! The bounce angles are so good, that enemy DDs that just show a bit of side will receive decent damage, but if u catch a DD on the broadside u can melt him with it.

Also Cruisers and BBs take a fair amount of damage by this AP. Sure the can effectively angle, but then use ur high fire chance on the HE to burn them. Sure raw damage will be close to 0, but setting fires is easy.

Then there is the Hydro, wich makes u basically immune to being torped in a typical 5-8km DD fight or while racking up fires on BBs while sitting in ur smoked.

And if thats not enough...there is a heal wich gives this ships so much more survivability than any other stealthy DD has, that u can meet close to a cap.

 

For me the Jutland and the other brit DDs is just like the German DD line. Low Damage but high impact on the match, by really dominating a fight around a cap.

 

And just to be sure u get what I am saying. Ur stats in the Jutland are not bad because the ship or any part of it is bad...it is just u playing it horribly wrong!

[MRGTB]

2 hours ago, Dosenoeffner82 said:

@MRGTB You are just leaving me scratching my head.

The Jutland was a pleasure to play for me. Clearly visible by my 84% Winrate in it. And surprise, im playing her without IFHE! But how is that possible?!? Answer is AP!. The AP of this Ship is just devastating! The bounce angles are so good, that enemy DDs that just show a bit of side will receive decent damage, but if u catch a DD on the broadside u can melt him with it.

I did say in my last post, I overlooked I don't have the ship fully upgraded yet. I know it can make a big difference when that is done, same way it used to when playing tanks in WOT before they are fully upgraded. I will reserve my judgment now until I do have the ship fully upgraded with Hull B and the next gun upgrade. It might be  a totally different ship then.

 

I overlooked I was making comments about a ship that isn't even fully maxed out yet.

[MRGTB]

5 hours ago, Ysterpyp said:

you can blame wg giving t8 toys to babies

 

 

You mean the Asashio B

[ColonelPete]

9 minutes ago, MRGTB said:

I did say in my last post, I overlooked I don't have the ship fully upgraded yet. I know it can make a big difference when that is done, same way it used to when playing tanks in WOT before they are fully upgraded. I will reserve my judgment now until I do have the ship fully upgraded with Hull B and the next gun upgrade. It might be  a totally different ship then.

 

I overlooked I was making comments about a ship that isn't even fully maxed out yet.

The AP shells do not change....

[wilkatis_LV]

18 hours ago, MRGTB said:

Jutland has 5 guns, not 6.

Ever heard of the B hull? Changes yout 2x2 + 1x1 to 3x2, hence her 6 guns

 

18 hours ago, MRGTB said:

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Jutland

Looks like someone's great at reading his own sources:

 

 

18 hours ago, MRGTB said:

But when your guns register NO DAMAGE

...you still can set fires which will do 0.3% of the targets max HP per second per fire

 

18 hours ago, MRGTB said:

how are you starting so many fires at that rate

Starting a fire doesn't come from penetrations, it comes from HE hits.

 

If you so wish you can take a t1 ship into a training room, put it vs a Yamato, then fire the t1s HE into Yamatos main belt and you'll still set fires despite of 100% shatter rate.

 

And Jutland's much better at starting fires than the t1s are.

 

So this again is a git gud & learn the basics issue

 

18 hours ago, MRGTB said:

did 48 shots on target and did 8k damage. But according to your figures with so many shots on target aimed at the upper structure, then I should have more than 8k damage from burns then. I think I had one burn from 48 shots on a Cruiser, its not even a BB

BB or cruiser - irrelevant. The only class which has separate fire resistances is CVs, for everyone else it's simply tier locked.

 

Lets go back to the base 8%, assume no FP thingies on target (less likely to be mounted on a crusier), assume it's same tier as you (x0.5671).

 

Average of 1 fire per 22 shells landed.

 

Note the AVERAGE part I keep typing in. You know why it's there? Fire is a CHANCE.

 

Let's simplify to 1 in 10 chance of setting a fire. 1 in 10 chance doesn't mean that every 10th shell will set a fire. 5th + 15th is still 1 in 10. 1st, 19th, 1st 18th, 1st - that's again 1 in 10. And your "luck" with fires can vary wildly when looked at battle-to-battle. In one game you're "unlucky", in another one you're "lucky", at some point you're "average". But in the large picture it averages out to that same average fire chance.

 

So again, a very basic issue of not understanding what a chance is

 

18 hours ago, MRGTB said:

you can't seriously work out how many fires should be started

Yes you can, as long as it's an approximate "average" guestimate. You won't get anything exact, but you know what you're going for

 

18 hours ago, MRGTB said:

not when you have RNG in the game

You do know that RNG is just like a dice roll? Take a dice, pick a number - lets say 2 - and that's your fire starter with a 1 in 6 chance. Now roll the dice. Roll it again. And again. You'll get single 2s, streaks of 2s, long streaks without 2s. But when you tally up all your rolls as the number of rolls increases the number of 2s rolled gets closer and closer to that same 1/6 you'd expect from it.

 

Magic

 

18 hours ago, MRGTB said:

Look at the calibre of guns that fall under BFT and AFT and you'll see DD guns benefit from both

An HE spamming Conq technically benefits from IFHE. Does that mean you should pick it? no.

A CV tecnically benefits from the "fiery takeoff" skill. Does that mean you should pick it? no.

 

Just because your ship can benefit from it doesn't mean you actually need to pick it.

 

And please, tickling BBs with those guns and then wondering why you have done nothing...

[MRGTB]

Sold the ship now.

 

Just the usual British rubbish that Wargaming like to churn out.... far better other DD to spend money than this ship.

[ColonelPete]

Sure....

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/index.html

 

[_Teob_]

12 hours ago, MRGTB said:

Sold the ship now.

 

Just the usual British rubbish that Wargaming like to churn out.... far better other DD to spend money than this ship.

 

In all fairness, it's probably for the best as it clearly wasn't for you. Should you decide to reconsider, have another read through this thread with an open mind.

[MRGTB]

4 hours ago, _Teob_ said:

 

In all fairness, it's probably for the best as it clearly wasn't for you. Should you decide to reconsider, have another read through this thread with an open mind.

I purchased the Cossack DD last night. I already had 37 Guinness from RN missions and noticed the special offer to buy 10 more for only 37p. So then only needed to buy the other special offer of £3.89 for 5 more  Guinness (total of £5 spent) to get the Cossack premium. That is why I dropped this ship. The Cossack has same 10k torps and doesn't need that IFHE used as a skill to make the guns work.

[_Teob_]

34 minutes ago, MRGTB said:

I purchased the Cossack DD last night. I already had 37 Guinness from RN missions and noticed the special offer to buy 10 more for only 37p. So then only needed to buy the other special offer of £3.89 for 5 more  Guinness (total of £5 spent) to get the Cossack premium. That is why I dropped this ship. The Cossack has same 10k torps and doesn't need that IFHE used as a skill to make the guns work.

 

While I appreciate what you're saying the comparison doesn't hold water. The Jutland is a silver t9 and it's on the road to the Daring (that also requires IFHE)

The Cossack is a premium t8.

 

I mean, yes, I get that you can use the same captain as on the lightning (you should still take a look at your spec though) but it also means that the only way you progress through the line is through free XP.