Team-damage/tk, how will they do it?

[krautjaeger]

In WoT there's the automatic system that supposedly works which bans people who do too much team-damage and tk's. That same system can not easily be adapted to WoWs because of the lumbering ships that can not stop and turn on a dime like most tanks can. A person shooting torpedoes in the fray of battle will have a high likelyhood of hitting friendlies, even ships firing salvos has this risk albeit smaller as well because of the low velocity of the shells and there might be some that are doing close combat brawling, while rare it is not unheard of. At any rate, the same system can not really be applied to WoWs that exists in WoT so how do we reckon they'll do it?

 

They could of course disable friendly fire completely, though people wanting more of a simulation will possibly be opposed to that.

[Kaptain_Tripps]

I've been wondering the same thing myself. I've torped friendlies a couple times and it's not felt like it was entirely my fault. I've also been sunk by friendly torps and that was definitely my fault. Whatever system they implement can't be as cut and dry as WoT. If they are too harsh on friendly torp fire we will jus get griefers hitting friendly torps on purpose.

[krautjaeger]

I've been wondering the same thing myself. I've torped friendlies a couple times and it's not felt like it was entirely my fault. I've also been sunk by friendly torps and that was definitely my fault. Whatever system they implement can't be as cut and dry as WoT. If they are too harsh on friendly torp fire we will jus get griefers hitting friendly torps on purpose.

 

Yes, they could send a spread and of course claim innocence and there are those that does it but not with hostile intent towards any team members. I've noticed though that a lot of people start firing their torpedoes at extreme range, but I reckon that is because they do not know the range even though you can check before battle. Would also think that a mod is out soon that will highlight a radius where your effective torpedo-range is shown.

 

While the emphasis seems to be DDs doing the wrong thing so far, I have seen some really wrong moves from cruisers and battleships just turning in to your already fired and on-target torpedoes. So the "blame" swings both ways, but as for team-damage and possible repercussions for such I am really looking forward to how they are going to handle that one.

[Driver1538]

If a torpedo hits a friendly in the first few seconds, it's a greater chance of a TK than a hit eighteen seconds later. Perhaps a six second penalty period?

[mtm78]

Only way to 'fix' abuse is to threat all team damage the same. ZERO xp and credits, and that should be enough. My jimmies got quite rustled when I got tk'd by a friendly Sims oPay Beta tester and he still got more xp then me. 

[krautjaeger]

Only way to 'fix' abuse is to threat all team damage the same. ZERO xp and credits, and that should be enough. My jimmies got quite rustled when I got tk'd by a friendly Sims oPay Beta tester and he still got more xp then me. 

 

That simply won't fly as it can be counter-trolled. You fire your torpedoes in a perfect trajectory towards the target. The ship ahead of you does not like you for some reason, does not want you to "steal" his kill, or just want to outright troll for the sake of trolling. He steers in to your torpedoes, take damage/gets destroyed and you are left there with balls hanging.

[Pawndemonium]

That's something which hardly can be automated, unless it's a very clear condition, in general this can be exploited easily though, so having an XP penalty isn't viable (eg. a griefer could steer into your torpedoes on purpose). The report system is probably not implemented yet for that reason, as there is quite a chunk of data necessary to reproduce the incidents, so I think it's a good reason to collect proper screenshot evidence for the support. This will be made easier for the player when replays are available, but as of now it's important to report bad behaviour (with evidence).

[nikos13ole]

The best way to deal with Team dmg right now is to take screenshot and send a ticket about that 

 

[mtm78]

 

That simply won't fly as it can be counter-trolled. You fire your torpedoes in a perfect trajectory towards the target. The ship ahead of you does not like you for some reason, does not want you to "steal" his kill, or just want to outright troll for the sake of trolling. He steers in to your torpedoes, take damage/gets destroyed and you are left there with balls hanging.

 

Yeah that does complicate things I admit. But still I rather have that then having newb's tk'ing me from full health in my New Orleans and still getting more xp then me. Using the bearing you shoot at and the position and bearing of enemy and allied ships can work but it still can not proof intent. 

 

The Sims in my case was a new player, might have been his first battle. He was shooting torps at targets 8km+  away with 5.5km range torpedoes, that should say enough. You can't expect the same situational awareness from a new player as from someone who grinds the dd's up to that tier.

 

So, you can't always tell if team damage / kills are intentional, and doing such with replays should only be done in extreme circumstances. If not, support will drown in tickets concerning team damage just like they did in WoT before they introduced an automated system.

 

I know zero xp / dmg is not realistic but still the biggest hurt should be put there since that is what players will take notice off and correct their own behavior which is what we want no?

[krautjaeger]

 

Yeah that does complicate things I admit. But still I rather have that then having newb's tk'ing me from full health in my New Orleans and still getting more xp then me. Using the bearing you shoot at and the position and bearing of enemy and allied ships can work but it still can not proof intent. 

 

The Sims in my case was a new player, might have been his first battle. He was shooting torps at targets 8km+  away with 5.5km range torpedoes, that should say enough. You can't expect the same situational awareness from a new player as from someone who grinds the dd's up to that tier.

 

So, you can't always tell if team damage / kills are intentional, and doing such with replays should only be done in extreme circumstances. If not, support will drown in tickets concerning team damage just like they did in WoT before they introduced an automated system.

 

I know zero xp / dmg is not realistic but still the biggest hurt should be put there since that is what players will take notice off and correct their own behavior which is what we want no?

 

 

Normally the best way is the simplest way, preferably a way that is non-trollable.  Normally I would try to find some solution that includes possible-team damage for "realism" purposes, but in this game I actually lean more towards disabling team-damage altogether. Because it is so easy to troll people when we move like beached whales around the map. In WoT where tanks go fast accidentally hitting your team-mates does not happen often, here where ships can not veer away when they notice your torpedoes coming from behind as there is X seconds delay for helm and then mass, rudder and all that comes in to play. Simply put too easy to troll. And we know from "experience" (read: WoT) that people love to troll others whenever they can.

[indycar]

every time you hit some friendly withg torps you will not be able to use torps for 10 min insert devil like smiley here --> <--

[Roguewind]

 

 

...in this game I actually lean more towards disabling team-damage altogether. 

 

I'd be really disappointed if they did this.  As soon as they did that, you'd start getting players shooting blindly into combat because they no longer have to worried about hitting their team mates.

 

[krautjaeger]

 

I'd be really disappointed if they did this.  As soon as they did that, you'd start getting players shooting blindly into combat because they no longer have to worried about hitting their team mates.

 

 

And yes, that is the downside. But it's damned if you do, damned if you don't. What are the lesser of two evils, people having the ability to troll without any consequence or people firing wildly. Yeah, I know. I'm hoping, although it's a true hail Mary, that if we put our heads together maybe we might come up with something WG can have a look at and possibly implement that would cover all, or most bases. Something constructive.

[mtm78]

I don't want friendly damage turned off it would make it so unrealistic it would basically kill the game for me. I want people with enough situational awareness to be able to properly play the game, not some cod kiddie which shoots his first torps at 30s into the game right in the flank of the bb next to him ( taking the extreme edge here just to make the point clear ). If they don't have that or don't care, hit them where it hurts them, experience and credits. And hit them hard!

[krautjaeger]

I don't want friendly damage turned off it would make it so unrealistic it would basically kill the game for me. I want people with enough situational awareness to be able to properly play the game, not some cod kiddie which shoots his first torps at 30s into the game right in the flank of the bb next to him ( taking the extreme edge here just to make the point clear ). If they don't have that or don't care, hit them where it hurts them, experience and credits. And hit them hard!

 

Well X + Y = Z, where Z is the result or the consequence of actions. But, as I said, perhaps we could try to define how they may achieve the result.

[mtm78]

Well afk people get 0 xp that I seen happen in the game. Even with the potential of trolling I would say friendly dmg should cover a lot more then repair costs ( as the player likely would have participated in the game longer and thus contribute in objectives ) of the victim, and I still think that giving zero xp works for me. I played a couple of hundred games, once I was confused about the markers and shot an ally multiple times, the only other time I did team damage was with firing torps without checking surroundings and I would be fine for getting zero xp for that game. 

 

I rather have that system in place, amended with manual handling of 'trolls' eating a torp because they want to spoil someone else's game. I acknowledge it will be abused, I also fully expect that if people doing this repeatedly can be filtered out and penalized accordingly. 

[krautjaeger]

Well afk people get 0 xp that I seen happen in the game. Even with the potential of trolling I would say friendly dmg should cover a lot more then repair costs ( as the player likely would have participated in the game longer and thus contribute in objectives ) of the victim, and I still think that giving zero xp works for me. I played a couple of hundred games, once I was confused about the markers and shot an ally multiple times, the only other time I did team damage was with firing torps without checking surroundings and I would be fine for getting zero xp for that game. 

 

I rather have that system in place, amended with manual handling of 'trolls' eating a torp because they want to spoil someone else's game. I acknowledge it will be abused, I also fully expect that if people doing this repeatedly can be filtered out and penalized accordingly. 

 

Well between my 'team-damage disabled' and your 'any damage = consequence' I do not think neither of us will see those implemented, they are the two extremes.

[Kaptain_Tripps]

If a torpedo hits a friendly in the first few seconds, it's a greater chance of a TK than a hit eighteen seconds later. Perhaps a six second penalty period?

 

Something along these lines could work. So much can happen between firing the torpedo and it running out of juice 30-60 seconds later that a system like this could filter out griefers / idiots from crap happens.

[Guy01]

In WOWP "Friendly fire" intentionally or not incurs a penalty of damage/repair & loss of XP cost from the perpetrator to the victim, as an example I'm flying on the tail of an enemy plane, loosing off rounds trying to kill him quick, then a friendly comes in from above/below/side maybe trying to help or killsteal and flies straight into my gunfire, it is my responsibility to stop firing or I'm the one that gets the penalty/fine, If the friendly comes up behind me targeting the enemy and I get shot, he incurs the fine. I have only played WOT briefly a few years back (I'm rubbish in a tank) but I know shooting at a friendly is not really an accident, hence the "Blue" tag assigned to TK'ers, The WOWP formula seems to work well and could be implemented here, but I do see the problem of lack of "Situational Awareness" and the time differences from the point of firing to contact.

[Moulie]

I have had games where I have fired torps at enemies 4-5k away and friendlies who are tunnel visioning on something else turn right into their path, there is no way you can predict how a friendly might turn after you let the toros go, and because they are in the water for so much longer than shells are in the air any 'shell team damage' mechanism will fail utterly when applied to torps. Having said that, I had a Kongo steam right past my StLouis last night, totally tunnel visioning on his target, and blast a full salvo right into the back of my ship at 20-30 yards....that's easily punishable.

[krautjaeger]

In WOWP "Friendly fire" intentionally or not incurs a penalty of damage/repair & loss of XP cost from the perpetrator to the victim, as an example I'm flying on the tail of an enemy plane, loosing off rounds trying to kill him quick, then a friendly comes in from above/below/side maybe trying to help or killsteal and flies straight into my gunfire, it is my responsibility to stop firing or I'm the one that gets the penalty/fine, If the friendly comes up behind me targeting the enemy and I get shot, he incurs the fine. I have only played WOT briefly a few years back (I'm rubbish in a tank) but I know shooting at a friendly is not really an accident, hence the "Blue" tag assigned to TK'ers, The WOWP formula seems to work well and could be implemented here, but I do see the problem of lack of "Situational Awareness" and the time differences from the point of firing to contact.

 

The economic compensation is easier to agree on for most, but then comes the hard part when people are going to get tk-bans and such. As both WoT and WoWp is fast paced games any of those formulas can't just be ported over either. While I hope and pray this game does not turn in to another WoT community-wise there are those that just want to make your match miserable and make sure you do not get any XP/coin from a game or deliberately set you up for a tk-ban.

 

A X second rule was introduced earlier, and that is the one that is "best" so far but it is still trollable.

[Bigglesof206]

 Only way to 'fix' abuse is to threat all team damage the same. ZERO xp and credits, and that should be enough.

 

I agree.

 

For what it's worth, in probably around 1000 battles spread across Alpha and Beta, during which I've played DDs rather a lot, and released a very large number of torpedoes, I've TK'd perhaps twice, and damaged teammates 2-3 times. If I hit a teammate with torps more than 0.5% of the time I'd be surprised.

 

 If you take any degree of care at all when torpedoing you very seldom hit teammates, so an automatic system will work just fine as per WoT. The only people who will suffer being banned for TKing accidentally will be those who are already too bloody dangerous with torps, and perhaps it will teach them to think a bit more before spamming. You can usually spot these people, they're the ones who blame the people they torp for having 'tunnel vision' and turning into their torps....which simply means they fire too close to friendlies too often, I particularly enjoy collecting a torp in this way from someone who blames me for not spotting them being stupid, when they've fired a torp with 4.5km range whilst the closest enemy ship is 10km away.

Dave

[krautjaeger]

 

I agree.

 

For what it's worth, in probably around 1000 battles spread across Alpha and Beta, during which I've played DDs rather a lot, and released a very large number of torpedoes, I've TK'd perhaps twice, and damaged teammates 2-3 times. If I hit a teammate with torps more than 0.5% of the time I'd be surprised.

 

 If you take any degree of care at all when torpedoing you very seldom hit teammates, so an automatic system will work just fine as per WoT. The only people who will suffer being banned for TKing accidentally will be those who are already too bloody dangerous with torps, and perhaps it will teach them to think a bit more before spamming. You can usually spot these people, they're the ones who blame the people they torp for having 'tunnel vision' and turning into their torps....which simply means they fire too close to friendlies too often, I particularly enjoy collecting a torp in this way from someone who blames me for not spotting them being stupid, when they've fired a torp with 4.5km range whilst the closest enemy ship is 10km away.

Dave

 

But with just that system and nothing else in place I can troll you and anyone else to my heart's content if that was my thing and claim "ignorance" when the torpedoes hit me and you end up with the tk and/or credit loss. Thankfully I am not anywhere near being such, but there are quite a few trolls out there. One evening of WoT is enough to meet those, especially on weekends.

[ThatOneDidntGoIn]

Just ban people who cause repeated hits to a friendly player. Its rare a team killer will wait until he can kill you with a single hit

 

[OVanBruce]

Well, for starters, how about paying a fine foe how much team damage you did during the match?