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Were the buffs to Hipper and Eugen enough?

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I'd say no and will explain my opinion in this post, but I felt like formulating the topic title as a question to open this thread up to discussion from people who might have a different opinion.

 

I do not question that buffs for Admiral Hipper and Prinz Eugen were required, I'm questioning whether they actually made these ships worth playing. I consider both to be the most irrelevant cruisers at T8 still and a chore to play, which is sad for Hipper, but utterly disastrous for Prinz Eugen, which costs money after all. Mainly, I think this comes down to two things:

  • Lack of effective dpm.
  • Highly situational armour scheme.

What do I mean by that?

 

Well, Hipper, like most things German in this game, has HE that has high pen and low damage and fire chance and AP that has high damage and pretty low penetration. Which in practice means, unless you have broadsides to wreck, the ship basically relies on spamming HE, which has as its sole ray of light that it can pen 50 mm of armour. Hipper has of all T8 cruisers the least amount of guns, has a very average reload time and the HE shells have a staggering 2,500 damage potential. Just to put this into perspective, Charles Martel and Baltimore as average heavy cruisers have 2,800 damage potential per shell, Atago and Mogami (203) have 3,300, Mogami (155) has 2600, Cleveland and Chapayev have 2,200 and Kagero has 2,150. Due to getting this combination of lackluster RoF, low amount of guns and unreliable or low damage shells, it can very much happen that you are stuck with basically the lowest effective dpm at T8 among tech line cruisers when playing Hipper, or lowest overall in Prinz Eugen. CAs in this game generally have lower dpm than CLs, but Hipper takes it to new extremes by also having low fire chance at 11% per shell. Cleveland has 12%. Kagero has 9% (and due to higher RoF, Kagero is actually about as good a fire starter as Hipper, which is sad). Just to make it even worse, HE dpm-wise, Hipper is actually a downgrade from the Yorck which has barely slower reload, but a significantly better HE shell and 12% fire chance. Prinz Eugen naturally is even worse, due to lower RoF than Hipper.

 

Now, some may say, this is horrible HE performance is justified by the high AP dpm. But I'd disagree. At anything but broadside, you won't get pens and as soon as a ship angles, you are back to requiring HE to get anything done. Thus, I'm going to say that "AP dpm" might actually be a faulty concept, as frankly, you need someone willing to ignore you "spamming" (is this term even applicable with that RoF?) AP into their side. Baltimore and Edinburgh are slightly more forgiving, as they get improved pen angles and thus can make more generous AP plays, but Hipper cannot. And thus, I find the greatest impact value AP has for a cruiser is the ability to surprise blap an enemy cruiser in 1-2 salvos. And guess what, that's about the only thing Hipper could do best... except it doesn't. Hipper/Eugen seem best in damage potential per single AP salvo, with 47,200 potential damage from 8 AP cits. However, all CLs are more capable of firing a follow-on salvo before the target angled, as can Charles Martel (reload booster!), Baltimore is more forgiving for a follow-up salvo with super-heavy AP (and 45,000 damage potential per salvo) and the Mogami (203) and Atago have barely less AP damage potential per broadside (47,000) but have the accuracy to much more reliably snipe a citadel. Mogami (155) lacks that accuracy but has the actualy highest aP per broadside, at 49,500. Thus, in that role, you basically aren't terrible... but noone else is really worse. And others do have actual HE.

 

The second point I stated was situational armour. Hipper has 27 mm everywhere, except the waterline belt, where it is more. This allows it to tank 38 cm shells. Hipper and Prinz Eugen have the potential to be up against a full lineup of T6-8 BBs that can be tanked and brawled to death with torps. Too bad MM throws you against T9s and T10s most of the time, where 38 cm is exceedingly rare. Not that at T6 and T7 there are no big guns capable of hurting you and frankly, any non-overmatching BB that is somewhat competent can just load the HE and stay outside torp range. They'll outlast you easily. Fuso has better HE dpm than Hipper. So, you basically can go try brawl people who have no idea how to deal with your armour and mostly BBs. Against cruisers, 27 mm at T8 gets penned by everyone (except those stuck without IFHE for whatever reason) and DDs fall into three categories mostly: DDs without IFHE that can at best pen Edinburgh and maybe Cleveland. They won't pen any other cruiser, because already 25 mm shuts them down. DDs with IFHE, which allows them to pen every T8 cruiser, because 127 mm IFHE can pen up to including 27 mm. And Cossack/Lightning, which are the two T8 BBs with guns you can tank if they have IFHE that others need to be bothered about. Vs DDs, what matters more than Hipper's armour is that Hipper's poor dpm makes Hipper and Eugen the absolute worst DD killers at the tier. DDs like IJN 10 cm DDs can smoke up and farm you for significant amount of hp, or if they have to, all except Harekaze can pick an open water gunfight and win a 1v1, because Akizuki may only have half Hipper's hp pool, but has double the dpm and will torch you far more efficiently.

 

If you look at other cruisers, they either don't rely on armour to the same degree or they have flat out more useful armour. The latter basically is Atago, which is 25 mm everywhere, except belt and a 41 mm deck. This means that, yes, 38 cm BBs might penetrate where on Hipper they'd bounce, but this armour scheme is actually reliable in what it does from T6 to T10. Shells that land on the deck bounce, regardless of whether it was a Bayern or a Yamato firing at you. This deck plating actually has consistent value. It even holds off most HE. This is what efficient plating looks like. Not 27 mm all over that might as well be nothing as soon as you encounter a West Virginia or Mutsu or almost anything at T9/10.

 

So, where does that leave Hipper/Eugen in my books? Basically, both ships lack impact. They seem geared most of all to deal with BBs, as smaller ships will frankly take them apart with dpm. Hipper's dpm is basically on par with a Kagero but with 17+ km range and 50 mm HE pen, but for actually removing DDs, this is utterly inadequate (because the range and pen don't matter and Kagero is the least threatening T8 DD a DD can run into, with the exception of Asashio). This means that at T8, Hipper most of all threatens Bismarck/Tirpitz, but Amagi and NC will crap on it just like they do on any other cruiser... well, Charles Martel might speed dodge, Cleveland has a small citadel and Atago can tank it on the deck. 38 cm Monarch and Richelieu might get frustrated by the Hipper, but their extensive 32 mm plating means that a well-positioned Cleveland, Chapayev or Mogami (155) are far more dangerous, as are most other CAs. Against T9/10, the proliferation of 406+ mm guns obviously means that the Hipper basically only gets to shine against heavily armoured ships as quasi-can opener, in the hope that it does more HE damage than others get with fires. But even if Hipper/Prinz Eugen were actually able to kill BBs, that would still leave them with lackluster impact, compared to ships like Atago or Mogami, which can play effective surprise attacks (blasting DDs and cruisers with heavy HE and AP broadsides), stealth torpedo attacks or the ships that have dpm and radar. But as is, Hipper/Prinz Eugen can't even do that.

 

So, can WG please go and get these ships a proper role and something meaningful to be good at that isn't utterly negated by the majority of ships it runs into? Or am I overlooking something in my analysis?

 

Also, just to touch upon something that might impact these ships too: WG stated in their latest Waterline video that CAs will receive armour amidships to tank BBs and will no longer get easily penned by CLs. While I have no clue how they plan to do this, it would obviously mean Hipper/Eugen might get buffed. The question however is, if basically all CAs get this, what is the point of these two? If a Charles Martel or Mogami (which after all is a CA hull) can tank BBs, what's the point of Hipper/Eugen?

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I think there is one thing missing from your analysis about the Hipper sisters' gunnery: Range and the means to use it.

Note that I played Hipper pre-buff btw.

 

Hipper gunnery for me at least was very comfortable to utilize even at maximum range while still being agile enough to dodge and weave around BB salvos at such distances. If you do take a hit you have the HP pool to sustain it.

Also her top hull has an excellent AA suite which will tear through same/lower tier aircraft and can even give pause to higher tier ones (I never bother with hydro on any cruiser, even on the German ones).

 

This makes Hipper an excellent second line support that is incredibly difficult to dislodge by any opponent, however that also naturally means she has little in the way of impacting the match if the first line falls flat. Your only practical option then is to kite away and farm damage to save your scoreboard placement while hoping the enemy is dumb enough to throw (which to be fair happens quite often nowadays).

In a good team a well played Hipper is a great asset. In a bad team a well played Hipper is nothing but a selfish damage farmer. Does this make her weak? Imo no, but I can see why people would argue otherwise.

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Agree with @El2aZeR, and would add that late game assuming they're alive, both can be aggressive against entrenched cruisers and occupied BBs. Hydro, torps and armour profiles make them good for close quarters but only when the crossfire potential has thinned out. PE is probably better for this given the staying power the heal gives.

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4 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

I think there is one thing missing from your analysis about the Hipper sisters' gunnery: Range and the means to use it.

Note that I played Hipper pre-buff btw.

 

Hipper gunnery for me at least was very comfortable to utilize even at maximum range while still being agile enough to dodge and weave around BB salvos at such distances. If you do take a hit you have the HP pool to sustain it.

Also her top hull has an excellent AA suite which will tear through same/lower tier aircraft and can even give pause to higher tier ones (I never bother with hydro on any cruiser, even on the German ones).

 

This makes Hipper an excellent second line support that is incredibly difficult to dislodge by any opponent, however that also naturally means she has little in the way of impacting the match if the first line falls flat. Your only practical option then is to kite away and farm damage to save your scoreboard placement while hoping the enemy is dumb enough to throw (which to be fair happens quite often nowadays).

In a good team a well played Hipper is a great asset. In a bad team a well played Hipper is nothing but a selfish damage farmer. Does this make her weak? Imo no, but I can see why people would argue otherwise.

It's basically how I felt this ship had to be used, till the moment when you trade hp for some decisive torp rush play. I would say though that Charles Martel with barely less range, better mobility and much better damage output and fire chance is all-round better at the role unless all you fire at are German BBs, Roma, Yamato and Russian T10 cruisers. Chapayev admittedly does not have the same excellent mobility, but offers better dpm at similar range and a stealth radar for cap control impact if you need it.

 

AA is solid, but lacks range. It's good when you are isolated though due to your long-range kiting, thus inviting carrier strikes. Still, that's assuming the CV has nothing better to strike than a Hipper.

1 minute ago, Mr_Tayto said:

Agree with @El2aZeR, and would add that late game assuming they're alive, both can be aggressive against entrenched cruisers and occupied BBs. Hydro, torps and armour profiles make them good for close quarters but only when the crossfire potential has thinned out.

I'd call the armour overhyped and barely worth it if you don't play against some poor T6 Warspite, Bayern or QE.

shot-18_12.08_23_33.40-0748.thumb.jpg.863aeb40b33bdbf0b8707b3f33475134.jpg

I mean, it's a bot, but with that armour effectiveness, unless it literally comes around a corner at 4 km and dumps all torps, you can just demolish it with normal pens or even citadels. Not to mention, anything that has its impact late-game is basically already at a disadvantage, because by then most matches are either already won or thrown. Hipper/Prinz Eugen alone are unlikely to save them. And this assuming you are up against a BB lategame, not some cruiser or DD, both where all you got going is a good hp pool.

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It's a cruiser, so normal cruiser rules apply. I'm not talking about pinning my hopes on tanking loads of damage, but you have a better chance than some at tier 8.

 

Btw if that's your battle UI... It's giving me the yips :cap_wander:

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12 minutes ago, Mr_Tayto said:

Btw if that's your battle UI... It's giving me the yips :cap_wander:

Please do not make a young girls - sad :-P. Everybody has his toys, my childrens has them too :-).

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2 minutes ago, Mr_Tayto said:

It's a cruiser, so normal cruiser rules apply. I'm not talking about pinning my hopes on tanking loads of damage, but you have a better chance than some at tier 8.

 

Btw if that's your battle UI... It's giving me the yips :cap_wander:

shot-18_12_12_00_25.08-0539.thumb.jpg.255a3af38d40547159381c3453b1f1a3.jpg

I take Atago with 41 mm deck armour that can bounce Musashi shells over Hipper any day, range or not. Hipper would likely not take 7 shells for not even 2k per shell average when hit on the deck from behind. Originally I wanted to make a thread gushing about Atago and how much I grew to like this ship, but I decided to scratch that idea, as it felt like it wouldn't contribute much and instead I thought I'd address CAs that imo are actually garbage. Like, Atago can tank, Atago effectively has far more hp than Hipper, Atago is faster and more maneuverable, it can play at those ranges without easily getting deleted and with concealment and heavy HE broadside you can give an impact on DD fights even without radar by just blapping a DD for large chunks of hp that can decide these knife fights. Its sustained dpm isn't great, but it can make those salvos count. Hipper/Eugen struggle much more to do that which is why I consider Atago a much better execution of a low dpm cruiser than the Germans. And even for AP play I prefer this ship, because frankly, the accuracy, 10 gun broadside and having almost the same concealment as Edinburgh do make it much more useful for deleting unsuspecting cruisers with AP than Hipper (as that Neptune up there found out the hard way). I hand it to the German sisters that as @El2aZeR stated, they have much better AA, but I doubt that not getting deleted by a CV once in 20 matches or so is going to make up for being a much better ship in the other 19.

 

As for the UI, that's Azur Lane Enchant by @Compass_Rose. I started using it a while ago and you haven't even seen the loading screens, result screens, port UI, etc.

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21 hours ago, Riselotte said:

I'd call the armour overhyped and barely worth it if you don't play against some poor T6 Warspite, Bayern or QE. 

Yes and no. There are still plenty of Derpitzes and Bismarcks around, as well as Richelieus, Asaces and Jean Barts. Generally though, I also have more confidence in Atago's armour (that deck armour is just fantastic).

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Just now, Jagod said:

Yes and no. There are still plenty of Derpitzes and Bismarcks around, as well as Richelieus, Asaces and Jean Barts. Generally though, I also have more confidence in Atago's armour (that deck armour is just fantastic).

I think in general, it is dumb to balance a ship around a strength that isn't a real strength. Hipper (as well as Eugen and by extension Roon) armour is their approach to survivability, the same way other cruisers have stuff like speed, concealment, maneuverability, vision control (smoke) or have to rely on terrain, but in exchange get other strengths. Just, for all these other ships, these strengths work universally. Being able to easily dodge or stealthy with a smoke works just as much against a Yamato as it works against an Alsace or a Hindenburg with spotter plane. Having 27 mm armour does not. Insofar, reliance on insufficient amounts of armour is to me far less an advantage and far more just the most silly and inefficxient approach to survivability there is. Atago at least gets the armouring approach right by armouring one part properly that matters and none of the rest. It thus does not get balanced around the premise "Well, this ship got survivability, thus it needs no dpm". I mean, even when playing Bismarck, a Hipper is maybe able to pen me with HE, but if that means the enemy is worse off in the cap fight or it's not some Charles Martel or Atago that sets me on fire all the time while dodging return salvos, I take it.

 

It's to me about as silly as the recent Roon/Hindenburg buff with an extra repair party charge. In effect, it's 3 freed up captain points. But how many 3 point perks are you going to take on your Roon/Hindenburg anyway? Like, I guess you can now take BoS and DE. At that point, why not just buff the fire chance on the shells by 2% instead? But 

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23 hours ago, Riselotte said:

It's to me about as silly as the recent Roon/Hindenburg buff with an extra repair party charge. In effect, it's 3 freed up captain points. But how many 3 point perks are you going to take on your Roon/Hindenburg anyway?

 

Why would you relinquish an additional heal on the Hinden ? Especially since the alternatives aren't as good, as you indirectly admit.

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5 hours ago, rnat said:

 

Why would you relinquish an additional heal on the Hinden ? Especially since the alternatives aren't as good, as you indirectly admit.

Because on paper, 5 heals look good. In practice, you are playing a cruiser, not a BB. Even if all you are battling are Zaos, the first three heals will likely be effective, the fourth will already struggle to have enough recoverable hp and the fifth charge likely won't recover anything meaningful. On battleships, where fires are more significant compared to normal pens and where you are less likely to eat citadels, you easily have recoverable hp for five if not more repair parties, but on a cruiser that gets full penned by all HE, where fires last only half as long and where a good hit by a BB might remove most of your hp in cits (Republique and Yamato overmatch), it's a joke. 

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uh...having a cruiser that can literally bumrush any 380mm battleship while having a laugh is nothing to sneeze at, specially with 6 torpedoes per side. there's a large percentage of BBs you can literally terrorize when angled while coming in for the kill - and that's something no other t8 cruiser can say...except for PE. ( fast headcount here... arizona, new mex, fuso, normandie, bayern, QE, warspite, lyon, gneisenau,scharnhorst, KGV, DoY, hood, tirpitz, bismarck, monarch, vanguard, richelieu, gascogne, roma, alsace, bourgogne)

 

on top of that there's that turtleback...those bbs that can overmatch you will have a hard time putting citadels on you once you're close enough, meaning that if you have the health and are close enough, you can almost guaranteed yolorush any bb before he can kill you.

 

I repeat, no other t8 cruiser has anywhere near that ability.

 

 

besides that, having the the long range hipper has with 203mm guns with built in ifhe and pretty good accuracy is no laughing matter either. having the scariest AP of any cruiser of the tier isn't very funny for those on the receiving end either. having that great health pool doesn't particularily hurt ,now we're at it. not to mention hydro, which on hipper is downright scary for DDs and lethal for those which aren't careful enough (and there's loads of those)

 

hipper's biggest issue and problem was its awful reload. the reload was buffed and the resulting ship is perfectly fine as a result. It has the tools to stay relevant throughout the battle without forcing things, as it has the range and guns to effectively HE spam from the second line in the early stages of the game, it has fearsome AP for broadsiding targets of opportunity, it has the hydro to hunt DDs when the chance arises, and it has the armor, health, and torpedoes for close-in action in the later stages of the game. There's no other cruiser at that tier that has such an ample bag of tricks. sure, there are ships which are better at a given task or situation, but then they're completely sold in a different scenario. hipper has tools to perform in any scenario. and that is a very, very, very powerful trait.

 

It requires (Actually, it demands) a good awareness to know when to swap from long range HE spam to close-in action, from turning from a 2nd liner into an offensive stance because doing it too early will kill you and doing it too late will drastically reduce the impact you'll have in the game. But if you know how to use it, it's a really brutal ship.

 

It is pretty much a downscaled hindenburg and plays like one. and hinden is a powerhouse at t10. Can't see where the perception of this ship being underwhelming comes from in any way, but no, it needs no buff whatsoever, and if you think it does you'd be better served leaving the line alone, because if you think hipper is bad you won't like neither Roon nor Hindenburg at all.

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2 hours ago, RAMJB said:

uh...having a cruiser that can literally bumrush any 380mm battleship while having a laugh is nothing to sneeze at, specially with 6 torpedoes per side. there's a large percentage of BBs you can literally terrorize when angled while coming in for the kill - and that's something no other t8 cruiser can say...except for PE. ( fast headcount here... arizona, new mex, fuso, normandie, bayern, QE, warspite, lyon, gneisenau,scharnhorst, KGV, DoY, hood, tirpitz, bismarck, monarch, vanguard, richelieu, gascogne, roma, alsace, bourgogne)

Turn, load HE, obliterate the cruiser. T6s are in a bad spot, but I don't give a damn about some Hipper in a Scharnhorst or Gneisenau, when I can just shred them at 8 km with secondary and main battery fire and if I want to feel cocky, counter-torp. Something like a Fuso, Lyon, KGV have respectable HE dpm and will cost the Hipper most of its hp, even if it manages to get close. The issue with such a bumrush imo is that it's a tactic that has far more drawbacks and counter-play options than most others. Not to mention, a good few on your list you could actually just as well rush in a Charles Martel or even in a goddamn Chapayev, because they cannot overmatch 25 mm. The actual list of ships where Hipper has better chances is Bayern, QE, Warspite, Gneisenau, Hood, Tirpitz, Bismarck, Monarch, Vanguard, Richelieu, Gascogne, Roma, Alsace, Jean Bart and Bourgogne. And if I can instead of bumrushing the BB HE spam it from long range while just outright dodging return fire (Charles Martel), dodge, partially tank, fire farm and stand-off torp (Atago and without partial tanking Mogami) or farm from behind obstacles (Cleveland), that's far less of the valuable hp traded for a kill than having to basically charge in and hope the enemy isn't smart enough to trade the ship or just kill me.

Spoiler

shot-18_12.16_20_46.04-0636.thumb.jpg.28097f0d25ffbf893416b0e68714f5ea.jpg

I lost a good bit of hp, but that Alabama cost me more. Getting some other cruiser countered in my experience is harder than just turning around and outlasting them.

2 hours ago, RAMJB said:

on top of that there's that turtleback...those bbs that can overmatch you will have a hard time putting citadels on you once you're close enough, meaning that if you have the health and are close enough, you can almost guaranteed yolorush any bb before he can kill you.

You can citpen the Hipper through the bow. Not even hard. So if the BB overmatches, yolorushing is a tactic born from desperation at best.

3 hours ago, RAMJB said:

besides that, having the the long range hipper has with 203mm guns with built in ifhe and pretty good accuracy is no laughing matter either. having the scariest AP of any cruiser of the tier isn't very funny for those on the receiving end either. having that great health pool doesn't particularily hurt ,now we're at it. not to mention hydro, which on hipper is downright scary for DDs and lethal for those which aren't careful enough (and there's loads of those)

Hipper has pen and range and that's it. Accuracy is normal. The only reason it feels better is because shells travel faster than on USN which cannot fire as far to begin with. The sad thing is though, that the HE ammo at that range is still downright pitiful in damage output and if the target goes down after a while, well, that's nice. But I'm sick of spendng most of my game trying to farm one Alsace with occasional potshots at spotted DDs or cruisers, because it's the best target in range and it dies only after half the match has passed, because that's what Hipper dpm is like. And against DDs, sure, German hydro can be nice, but if you are in a position to just go against a DD, normal hydro combined with actual dpm gets the job done faster. Cleveland doesn't need to trade defAA for it and even has radar with almost stealth radar capability, Edinburgh has radar that matches its concealment, Chapayev has radar exceeding its concealment. If you potato into Hipper hydro and die, you deserve that. Far more than just stumbling upon a Chapayev that can counter-radar and obliterate you with accurate fire at 11 km still. Which also means, you can keep a Hipper permaspotted if you wanted, you run much more risk doing this to half the other cruisers at the tier.

 

3 hours ago, RAMJB said:

hipper's biggest issue and problem was its awful reload. the reload was buffed and the resulting ship is perfectly fine as a result. It has the tools to stay relevant throughout the battle without forcing things, as it has the range and guns to effectively HE spam from the second line in the early stages of the game, it has fearsome AP for broadsiding targets of opportunity, it has the hydro to hunt DDs when the chance arises, and it has the armor, health, and torpedoes for close-in action in the later stages of the game. There's no other cruiser at that tier that has such an ample bag of tricks. sure, there are ships which are better at a given task or situation, but then they're completely sold in a different scenario. hipper has tools to perform in any scenario. and that is a very, very, very powerful trait.

It still feels awful. And I'm going to say that for most of the time where it just long-range HE spams, its relevance is limited. It might be annoying, but as a threat, it can be ignored by same tier or higher tier BBs for far longer than any other cruiser, because the dpm and fire chance are a joke. I wouldn't try close in on a Myoko like I did with the Prinz Eugen above, because any smart Myoko would just run off throw 6 to 12 torps my way and set my ship on fire in a good few places. But getting shelled by one is a far greater issue than getting shelled by Hipper or Eugen.

And sorry, but what? I mean, I'd know a good few cruisers that can farm BBs, kill DDs and remain decent against cruisers at T8. Cleveland hasn't got the armour, but dpm and unless hit in the rather small citadel eats not too much damage. It's stealthy and you can farm BBs as support ship with some cover just fine. DDs hate you with radar, hydro and a lot of fast firing guns, CVs hate you, because you're the only cruiser with guaranteed defAA, against cruisers, they cannot overmatch you and you can just out-dpm them. Given the only cruisers matching you in concealment are IJN and RN, but none being able to really outspot you effectively, it isn't hard to avoid stupid long-range fights. Chapayev meanwhile is admittedly not as good as Hipper vs BBs, but can perform well against cruisers and DDs at most realistic ranges and against BBs is still reasonably useful. Wouldn't take hydro, because radar. Atago has slightly less hp, but a repair party, has not 27 mm armour everywhere but a 41 mm deck that when it gets hit bounces even yamato shells, has 9.1 km concealment and 10 km torps and a broadside that matches Hipper's in AP destruction and outperforms it in HE. With improved accuracy and fire chance. It also is faster and has better rudder shift. Which means against BBs, you can effectively kite them and set them on fire without much issue and vanish inbetween much easier and this regardless of tier (unlike Hipper, where at T10, against every BB but one, Atago has better armour), against DDs, you may not have the hydro range, but you have better HE dpm and conceakment, which allows for good supporting surprise HE salvos (with pinpoint accuracy) that can take large chunks of DD hp out in one go and even in 1v1, the lesser hydro suffices to bully out DDs of an area if not kill them. Against cruisers, the ability to usually get the first shot off and a reinforced deck to avoid getting easily HE penned is far more valuable than anything Hipper has. Some RN CL basically gets no warning before running into an Atago and you can ambush them pretty effectively with AP salvos that delete their citadel (which Hipper can try, but while Hipper has 200 more AP damage potential on a salvo, it cannot get as close, nor as accurate even at that range). Lastly, if Atago wants to, it can just fall back and play torp boat. So, I don't know how you think that Hipper with its armour that uptiers poorly, with its dpm that is poor or gated behind broadsiding enemies, a concealment that is nothing special, is in any way the "versatile" cruiser. It basically has one situation where it performs better. When farming T7 and T8 German BBs, where the HE pen counts and the armour too. With every other ship in the game it's questionable. Even the French and British BBs with their garbage armour basically amount to Hipper getting survivability at a hefty dpm cost (which leaves them at the mercy of BBs that actually switch to HE). Hood is a special case, because Hood either takes hits in the superstructure, where everyone pens or the 51 mm deck, where even Hipper fails (Yorck gets through though). Hipper is a master of mediocrity, with one rather questionable trick, but otherwise no clear strengths and rather a few drawbacks.

3 hours ago, RAMJB said:

It requires (Actually, it demands) a good awareness to know when to swap from long range HE spam to close-in action, from turning from a 2nd liner into an offensive stance because doing it too early will kill you and doing it too late will drastically reduce the impact you'll have in the game. But if you know how to use it, it's a really brutal ship.

Any good T8 cruiser will require that, except maybe Edinburgh. But Edinburgh is neither a ship for the unskilled, nor is it a ship that is weak. The issue though is, that Hipper's impact is basically mid to late game. Other cruisers can get impact from the first engagement. That is if you ever can get the full impact out of your ship. If you get thrown into rounds with only overmatching BBs, what special impact are you going to leave on a Montana or Des Moines that no other T8 could make?

3 hours ago, RAMJB said:

It is pretty much a downscaled hindenburg and plays like one. and hinden is a powerhouse at t10. Can't see where the perception of this ship being underwhelming comes from in any way, but no, it needs no buff whatsoever, and if you think it does you'd be better served leaving the line alone, because if you think hipper is bad you won't like neither Roon nor Hindenburg at all.

Hindenburg has 30 mm midsection and basically has 4 BBs that can overmatch it, of which one (457 Conqueror) is rare to the extreme. Hindenburg gets 12 guns, which for T10 is the upper limit, not 8, which for T8 is the lower limit. Hindenburg actually has ships with worse HE dpm below it that aren't a premium version of itself. Hindenburg is a ship that is actually decent. Hipper is not. Nor would I call Hipper a downscaled Hindenburg. Hipper basically lacks much of the survivability Hindenburg has. In a sense, Cleveland has more on Worcester and Atago on Zao than Hipper has on Hindenburg. Hipper basically is as much Hindenburg as 203 Mogami is Zao (and that ship would suffer if there wasn't 155 Mogami).

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"load HE obliterate cruiser"

I don't know what world you live in but in mine HE won't stop a cruiser coming for your skin with 12 torps total if you can't overmatch it. Unless it's SERIOUSLY hurting, if you're in, say, an Alsace, and you have a reasonably healthy hipper at 9km coming at full speed for you your only real choice is to turn tails and run before he's in torpedo range. Because once he's within 6km, you're dead. And you must turn away with ALL the implications (including giving broadside to him and others that might see you turning). And that's against an Alsace. Go figure out what happens against a Bismarck or a Monarch.


"overmatching guns will citpen through the bow"

that's where you must know when and against what to angle in nose in, and against what you must show your belt hoping for a bounce (at best) or just normal AP pens (at worse).

Obviously against BBs with overmatching guns a Hipper is in VERY serious trouble - but it still is far lesser trouble than any other T8 cruiser in the same situation, because with the turtleback in play and how low the citadel is no cits will happen, while other ships will be in danger of getting blown to pieces. That should count. And that **Does** count. I



"Hipper has pen and range and that's it, HE does little damage"

Having almost 18km of range is no joke for a T8 cruiser. At all. You can lob HE from ranges other same tier cruisers are useless. On top of that your HE won't do much damage per shell  but they pen up to 51mm of armor instead of 33, which means a far larger % of penetrating HE instead of bounced off 0 damages, even enabling Hipper to reliably hurt Moskvas... which more than compensates for the low per shell damage when compared with other T8 cruisers.


"Hydro is nice but not special"

Absolute nuts. Hydro pretty much means nothing can be within 6km range of your ship without being detected. It pretty much emasculates "enterprising" stealthy DDs (kageros, lightnings and the such) and forces them to stay at longer ranges than usual because otherwise they're toast. "regular" hydro doesn't even come anywhere close to that. At all.

 

 


"cleveland hasn't got the armor but has dpm and stealth"

cleveland has no defense whatsoever against rushers, it's completely naked and powerless against BBs the second it moves away from hard cover, has laughable range and might aswell be covered in tissue paper. Remember what I said about hipper not being a specialist but a generalist?. cleveland is a specialist. In it's niche is fantastic. out of it it's dead. Hipper doesn't have that problem.

Yes, DDs hate cleveland, but precisely because of that, and because it being pretty much an hp pinhata when caught in the open means a neon sign above it saying "shoot me", clevelands are stuck to very precise positions of the map from which they can't move. They're main primaries (as any other radar ship). Hipper is not such a primary target, and it still is a massive threat to DDs, an ideal cap "sweeper", and a perfect counter to smoke campers or enterprising flankers. You get the anti-DD goodies without being called a main target 24/7. I call that more than a fair trade.

Also what's that about "they can't overmatch you"?. 16mm of bow armor stops very few things.

 

chapayev shares the same problem of cleveland but on steroids. Is as much a primary or more, has even less armor, and has the turning cirle of a drunk whale. And it doesn't work well behind cover because those railguns are both a blessing and a curse - sure they have fast as heck speeds but they don't have the arc to fire from behind most cover and even then the second  you're spotted chances are whatever you're firing at can fire back at you.

Atago has horrible reload. If DPM is your main concern about hipper I don't even know why it even is in this conversation. Also, that HE is bounced by anything with more than 33mm armor, so whenever you're hitting at most stuff (like, another atago), you'll get a much larger proportion of 0 damage hits than Hipper, thus more than compensating for the higher per shell damage.

What Atago (and 203mm mogami) has is better fire chances. They're FAR better firestarters. And they are faster and more sneaky. But that's about it. THeir role is what it is- long range HEspammer. Caught close in an atago is dead. Hipper can do that role AND can do other stuff competently. Again, specialist vs generalist.

BTW, Japanese 41mm deck plays a part at very long ranges only - once they're at medium/close enough range it's worthless. And at long range you have tasty 25mm ship ends, which are pretty large compared with the main 41mm deck itself and vulnerable to any BB shell that hits, short of a scharnhorst's volley. Or, in other words, Mogami and Atago both are restricted to one role: long range HEspammer - Hipper is not...while I'd debate seriously anyone who tries to convince me that a cruiser with 17.7km of range and built-in IFHE 203mm guns is a "worse" long range HE spamer than one with 15.7km range and no IFHE, 41mm deck or not. And  that IFHE part is capital...remember, Hipper's guns can put HE straight through that deck (50+mm of armor penetration, remember?). Hell, HIpper can put HE straight through almost any ship's deck. Atago certainly cannot.

 

 

So even in what should be the Atago's "niche", the Hipper offers certain hard to overlook pros to the table. That's quite something, being as it is that an atago isn't anywhere as survivable as a Hipper when caught at closer ranges.

 


and I insist, "normal" hydro is nothing like german one. Detecting torpedoes at such a range as to make the ship pretty much invulnerable to them while active (unless seriously shoddy driving happens) and giving their presence away for allies is a godsend. Effectively capping ALL destroyer's concealment up to 6km ,is another godsend. The extra range is insanely helpful when dealing with smoked up enemies. Hydro ,because of the much longer duration, is FAR better than radar for doing"cap sweeps", and contesting caps when there still are enemy DDs in play. And a long etcetera.
Again, in that regard, hipper's hydro is by far and large the best of the GAME. You don't get it better at T10. And you can use at T8. It's a staggering trait for the ship wether you want to aknowledge it or not.
 

 


"any good T8 cruisers demand that"

True, but out of them all Hipper is the one that can commit to the offensive the soonest, because the benefits of it's armor at close ranges aren't matched by any other T8 cruiser. In short, you can go straight into the fight much sooner than any other cruiser of the same tier because any other cruiser at close range is dead meat while a hipper is at it's best.


"hindenburg has 30mm midsection"

And 4 more guns, 4 more torpedoes, a lot more hitpoints and a heal. That's why Hindenburg is a T10 ship, and Hipper is T8. Doesn't prevent the fact that Hindenburg *IS* nothing short of an overscaled hipper in how it plays. Which should give a hint of how powerful Hipper can be two tiers lower.

 

Also you repeat "DPM this DPM that" a lot. I insist, on paper HE DPM is one thing. ACTUAL, REAL, HE DPM is a whole different matter. When your HE goes through 50mm of armor it rakes a MUCH higher effective DPM than when your HE goes through 33mm of armor, no matter you have one less gun than your heavy cruiser opposition, or 4 less than your light cruiser counterparts, and no matter your HE damage is anemic. Anemic damage that pens is damage. Strong damage that bounces is nothing.

That those HE shells can hit stuff at 17.7km instead of 15km-ish, is just another nail in the head of the idea of "DPM". If you're out of range, your DPM is 0. And Hipper rarely finds itself out of range of anything he wants to shoot. The same can't be said about the whole lot of other T8s.



"it's a ship with one questionable trick but otherwise no clear strenghts"

Ok, let's sum it up again; hipper and PE's "other tricks" are:

50mms of penetration with HE (only cruiser, alongside it's bigger german brothers, that can clearcut hurt even bow in Moskvas with HE without IFHE, regardless where they hit, in the whole "normal" cruiser class in the whole game. Just to name one instance of why that's of capital importance).

17.7km range (longest in the tier, and apart of Martel, longest by a quite remarkable stretch too)

Turtleback armor on a mostly underwater citadel which means that at anything but long range it's extremely hard to citadel (not impossible, but extremely hard).

6 torpedoes per side (second best of any T8 cruiser, behind the japanese ones) which on top of that have lightning quick reload and synergize extremely well with the great close-in armor layout for rushes.

6km hydro at T8 (being as it is by far the best and most useful hydro in the whole game, only present in the german t8-t10 cruisers and the t9-t10 BBs).

highest healthpool in the tier (only lagging behind PE and Atago because of their heal)

 

highest AP damage per shell of any non-german "normal" cruiser. Including T10 ones except Henri. (obviously the "battlecruisers" are a whole different matter and should be another class, but that's besides the point).


.... it sure seems like a bunchload of "clear strenghts" to me, to add to the "questionable trick" of being impervious to anything short of 406mm AP when properly angled...


But that's just to me. You might be inclined to think otherwise. In that case, I insist, leave the line alone, because Roon and Hindenburg will MASSIVELY dissapoint you because their playstile, strenghts and weaknesses are exactly the same.
 

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4 hours ago, RAMJB said:

"load HE obliterate cruiser"

I don't know what world you live in but in mine HE won't stop a cruiser coming for your skin with 12 torps total if you can't overmatch it. Unless it's SERIOUSLY hurting, if you're in, say, an Alsace, and you have a reasonably healthy hipper at 9km coming at full speed for you your only real choice is to turn tails and run before he's in torpedo range. Because once he's within 6km, you're dead. And you must turn away with ALL the implications (including giving broadside to him and others that might see you turning). And that's against an Alsace. Go figure out what happens against a Bismarck or a Monarch.

It sure stopped that Prinz Eugen up in my screenshot. Yes, it means you might force a BB to turn, but if you don't get the BB punished for it, what exactly are you worth? Not a whole lot. If the BB isn't completely taken by surprise around a corner (which actually means you'd throw that range out the window for the approach), they see you coming at a range where turning is hardly the issue. Bismarck and such also survive a turn, because they basically are immune to citadels. Best case, the enemy is dumb and you get a kill. Worst case, you threw your ship away for a heavily damaged BB that has repair party.

 

4 hours ago, RAMJB said:

"overmatching guns will citpen through the bow"

that's where you must know when and against what to angle in nose in, and against what you must show your belt hoping for a bounce (at best) or just normal AP pens (at worse).

Obviously against BBs with overmatching guns a Hipper is in VERY serious trouble - but it still is far lesser trouble than any other T8 cruiser in the same situation, because with the turtleback in play and how low the citadel is no cits will happen, while other ships will be in danger of getting blown to pieces. That should count. And that **Does** count. I

I love that turtleback argument, because it's about as overhyped as German CA armour. 27 mm plating is irrelevant to half the BBs, while the turtleback is about as unreliable as Dunkerque guns. You can get citadel hits with cruiser guns on these things, as can happen with BB guns at any range. Here, a compilation of citadel shots with Scharnhorst, the lowest caliber BB guns I could bring up. When citadel doesn't get hit, overmatching BB guns obviously take still out up to 20k hp per salvo, which depletes Hipper in three salvos, if you don't continue shooting at the same spot.

 

Other cruisers don't have to yolo rush to get their impact.

Spoiler

shot-18_12.20_21_47.02-0871.thumb.jpg.82770b5fc72d93eaf94104c0c779ad00.jpg

Citpen at 3.1 km.

shot-18_12.20_21_47.44-0156.thumb.jpg.0bc14a7887ad9ef2ee2138fb3514e56f.jpg

shot-18_12.20_21_49.26-0688.thumb.jpg.cc316b690f1ef9c7b3bd3a62e9f5b88e.jpg

Citpen at 5 km.

shot-18_12.20_21_50.32-0632.thumb.jpg.c2be7d69d7902e8eabb8f71eacab269f.jpg

Citpen at actual range.

shot-18_12.20_21.51_12-0819.thumb.jpg.d1b8d4f959458c46a7cdafd50d7cf48d.jpg

Even more citpens.

4 hours ago, RAMJB said:

"Hipper has pen and range and that's it, HE does little damage"

Having almost 18km of range is no joke for a T8 cruiser. At all. You can lob HE from ranges other same tier cruisers are useless. On top of that your HE won't do much damage per shell  but they pen up to 51mm of armor instead of 33, which means a far larger % of penetrating HE instead of bounced off 0 damages, even enabling Hipper to reliably hurt Moskvas... which more than compensates for the low per shell damage when compared with other T8 cruisers.

The issue with any damage vs pen argument is, that Hipper basically becomes a specialist vs Moskva, Khaba and 50 mm plating BBs. The vast majority of ships don't have that kind of armour and every ship tajes fire damage. Hipper is far more a specialist in that regard than any other cruiser. And being able to project a dpm that is put to shame by a Kagero out to 18 km is not exactly "impactful". It's actually sad enough that something like an Akizuki or Haekaze can take a dump on a Hipper and threaten its existence.

4 hours ago, RAMJB said:

"Hydro is nice but not special"

Absolute nuts. Hydro pretty much means nothing can be within 6km range of your ship without being detected. It pretty much emasculates "enterprising" stealthy DDs (kageros, lightnings and the such) and forces them to stay at longer ranges than usual because otherwise they're toast. "regular" hydro doesn't even come anywhere close to that. At all.

It prevents them from torping you the same way a 5 km hydro does on a regular CA/CL, because it makes it harder for you to get torped. A DD that can stay outside 5.4/5.5 km range can stay out of 6 km range (given you are spotted far before that) and there's little actual difference otherwise. If I torp you from 6.1 km away, under the assumption you run hydro, Hipper with Hydro will dodge as would a Chapayev with hydro up. With hydro down, you'd eat them all the same though. What 6 km hydro does, is light up ships in smokes. And guess what, if I know you are coming, I can leave and Hipper is too slow to catch up. If I don't know, even 5 km hydro will catch me out of position and will end my ship. Though faster, because every other cruiser has better HE firepower (except Eugen). And some cruisers actually have radar. You know what emasculates a Kagero? Running into a radar Edinburgh that can just lolradar you the moment it gets detected and proceed to delete you. Thus no, 6 km hydro is not special on a cruiser. It's nice on Bismarck though, where no other BB gets it at the tier.

4 hours ago, RAMJB said:

"cleveland hasn't got the armor but has dpm and stealth"

cleveland has no defense whatsoever against rushers, it's completely naked and powerless against BBs the second it moves away from hard cover, has laughable range and might aswell be covered in tissue paper. Remember what I said about hipper not being a specialist but a generalist?. cleveland is a specialist. In it's niche is fantastic. out of it it's dead. Hipper doesn't have that problem.

Yes, DDs hate cleveland, but precisely because of that, and because it being pretty much an hp pinhata when caught in the open means a neon sign above it saying "shoot me", clevelands are stuck to very precise positions of the map from which they can't move. They're main primaries (as any other radar ship). Hipper is not such a primary target, and it still is a massive threat to DDs, an ideal cap "sweeper", and a perfect counter to smoke campers or enterprising flankers. You get the anti-DD goodies without being called a main target 24/7. I call that more than a fair trade.

Also what's that about "they can't overmatch you"?. 16mm of bow armor stops very few things.

Against cruisers, dpm is enough to get you out, against BBs, yes, you cannot hold a position well, but neither can Hipper. I can just flank wide enough to not be in torp range, that Hipper dpm isn't discouraging me and unless I cannot overmatch, it's an easier kill afterwards. Apart from Hipper being far worse at actually camping behind obstacles. As said before, Hipper's armament also is not exactly generalist, it's anti-heavy plating HE. Against most ships, Cleveland works better.

 

Armament-wise, Cleveland might have crap for armour, but unless you actually pen the citadel, you get a whole load of overpens. Far more than on the Hipper. and there is no 16 mm bow. Cleveland isn't Edinburgh.

Spoiler

shot-18_12.20_21_32.50-0490.thumb.jpg.fbf633f794b58a2694aa5a67aab5017f.jpg

 

4 hours ago, RAMJB said:

chapayev shares the same problem of cleveland but on steroids. Is as much a primary or more, has even less armor, and has the turning cirle of a drunk whale. And it doesn't work well behind cover because those railguns are both a blessing and a curse - sure they have fast as heck speeds but they don't have the arc to fire from behind most cover and even then the second  you're spotted chances are whatever you're firing at can fire back at you.

Chapayev isn't an obstacle camper though and basically is what Hipper would be if you exchanged armour with dpm and a consumable that is significant and doesn't make you basically a free kill for CVs. Which basically means, against anything that does overmatch 27 mm (read, half the BBs at your tier and every cruiser firing HE), Chapayev is maybe a bit less maneuverable, but about matches the range and has the dpm to kill the threat sooner rather than later. Which also means, Chapayev will kill cruisers faster. You may note, the only point where Hipper ever shines is against a narrow section of BBs. It isn't going to win a fight vs a smart cruiser and is the least useful DD hunter. It has ok AA, if you don't mind switching out your glorified hydro and that other cruisers get better range.

4 hours ago, RAMJB said:

Atago has horrible reload. If DPM is your main concern about hipper I don't even know why it even is in this conversation. Also, that HE is bounced by anything with more than 33mm armor, so whenever you're hitting at most stuff (like, another atago), you'll get a much larger proportion of 0 damage hits than Hipper, thus more than compensating for the higher per shell damage.

What Atago (and 203mm mogami) has is better fire chances. They're FAR better firestarters. And they are faster and more sneaky. But that's about it. THeir role is what it is- long range HEspammer. Caught close in an atago is dead. Hipper can do that role AND can do other stuff competently. Again, specialist vs generalist.

BTW, Japanese 41mm deck plays a part at very long ranges only - once they're at medium/close enough range it's worthless. And at long range you have tasty 25mm ship ends, which are pretty large compared with the main 41mm deck itself and vulnerable to any BB shell that hits, short of a scharnhorst's volley. Or, in other words, Mogami and Atago both are restricted to one role: long range HEspammer - Hipper is not...while I'd debate seriously anyone who tries to convince me that a cruiser with 17.7km of range and built-in IFHE 203mm guns is a "worse" long range HE spamer than one with 15.7km range and no IFHE, 41mm deck or not. And  that IFHE part is capital...remember, Hipper's guns can put HE straight through that deck (50+mm of armor penetration, remember?). Hell, HIpper can put HE straight through almost any ship's deck. Atago certainly cannot.

 

 

So even in what should be the Atago's "niche", the Hipper offers certain hard to overlook pros to the table. That's quite something, being as it is that an atago isn't anywhere as survivable as a Hipper when caught at closer ranges.

The reason why Atago is in the conversation is because Atago is a T8 cruiser, thus competes with Hipper and frankly does the whole concept better. Atago might not have Hipper's dpm against heavily armoured ships, but it bhas the fire chance to make up for it. Against everything else, Atago leaves a bigger tent than Hipper (and puts it on fire) for surprise shots, Atago is also better. Not being reliant on continuous firing of the main battery for impact also reduces survivability issues when you have 9.1 km concealment and when you need to tank, Atago has the speed and rudder shift to dodge, while also having aforementioned 41 mm deck that bounces shells. Yes, it doesn't cover all the deck, but guess what, when anything with guns larger than 38 cm shoots at Hipper, the entire ship is "juicy" 27 mm. Those 2 mm don't save you and large gun BBs exist now at every tier the Hipper and Atago can face. Add to it that 41 mm shatters all but German HE and you find that Atago is actually more resilient than Hipper in the greater variety of circumstances and more effective outside the narrow scenario of 38 cm gun BBs with 50 mm deck (which applies to a grand total of two ships in the game).

 

Atago also isn't just a pure HE spammer, it can duel other cruisers and win, thanks to concealment and a heavy broadside. There's much value in being able to surprise a cruiser from 10 km away and shoot 10 AP shells at the citadel with DD accuracy while already turning out. And again, fires make up for damage too, because while more easily repairable, the Hipper doesn't have the dpm output to really make its direct damage much more threatening than getting put on fire on multiple places. It's actually not too hard with an Atago to snipe vulnerable bow, vulnerable stern, forward superstructure, back superstructure and get your fires (and all on sections where all BBs are soft, just that they run out of hp at some point) and you did a good few hefty salvos and every full duration fire is at least 10.4% of hp (on a Bismarck about 7k, on a Yamato and Kurfürst it's vastly more) and doesn't need you to continue shooting them. Certainly beats Hipper that in the same 35 seconds of minimum duration gets 3 salvos out with about the same 8k damage inbetween them. I can meanwhile take my Atago and shoot other things where damage sticks. Or throw torps. And that is if you HE farm the BBs or CAs with the biggest hp pools. You know, the ships that give the least f's about your anaemic dpm (while fires would actually scale with hp pools), and where doing damage has the least impact. Hipper basically excels at the most useless task of them all thus.

 

Which is the next part, Atago can actually delay enemies better than a Hipper and fend off. If you want to boil the Atago down to one niche, that's up to you, but unlike Hipper, there's a lot more you can do with insane concealment, heavy broadside, stealth torps, 41 mm deck and a repair party than you can do with a 27 mm plating, 50 mm pen, German hydro and suicide rush torps.

4 hours ago, RAMJB said:

"any good T8 cruisers demand that"

True, but out of them all Hipper is the one that can commit to the offensive the soonest, because the benefits of it's armor at close ranges aren't matched by any other T8 cruiser. In short, you can go straight into the fight much sooner than any other cruiser of the same tier because any other cruiser at close range is dead meat while a hipper is at it's best.

Other cruisers can support the cap fight more effectively with firepower and/or radar and get DDs killed within minutes. I call that an earlier impact than shaving off a few k hp off a BB that has no consequence until the BB dies a few minutes down the line. and I'm not convinced that yoloing your cruiser into the still intact enemy team is going to get you your impact. Hipper basically has to wait and thus its actual impact is mid-to-late game, not early on.

 

Also, I reverse your statement: Every other cruiser can fight at more advantageous ranges, only Hipper has to play at ranges where it still gets crapped on to actually show significant advantages over other ships.

4 hours ago, RAMJB said:

"hindenburg has 30mm midsection"

And 4 more guns, 4 more torpedoes, a lot more hitpoints and a heal. That's why Hindenburg is a T10 ship, and Hipper is T8. Doesn't prevent the fact that Hindenburg *IS* nothing short of an overscaled hipper in how it plays. Which should give a hint of how powerful Hipper can be two tiers lower.

 

Also you repeat "DPM this DPM that" a lot. I insist, on paper HE DPM is one thing. ACTUAL, REAL, HE DPM is a whole different matter. When your HE goes through 50mm of armor it rakes a MUCH higher effective DPM than when your HE goes through 33mm of armor, no matter you have one less gun than your heavy cruiser opposition, or 4 less than your light cruiser counterparts, and no matter your HE damage is anemic. Anemic damage that pens is damage. Strong damage that bounces is nothing.

That those HE shells can hit stuff at 17.7km instead of 15km-ish, is just another nail in the head of the idea of "DPM". If you're out of range, your DPM is 0. And Hipper rarely finds itself out of range of anything he wants to shoot. The same can't be said about the whole lot of other T8s.

Hindenburg can tank a Montana, Hipper cannot tank a NC. Hindenburg can win fights against other cruisers, Hipper typically runs into dpm issues. And you can feel free to go on about how dpm doesn't matter, because "ACTUAL, REAL, HE DPM" is only what goes through 50 mm plating. Which in the MM spread affects 12 BBs (Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, Bismarck, Tirpitz, Roma, NC, FdG, Iowa, Musashi, GK, Yamato, though 3 of these actually only have minor parts covered in 50 mm armour, while the rest is 32 mm or outright beyond 50 mm and thus inpenetrable), 4 CAs (Moskva, Stalingrad, Aoba, Atago) and 1 DD (Khabarovsk). Out of 47 BBs, 58 CAs/CLs and 57 DDs (I did count ships that are yet to be released but finalised without insane plating or very likely to not get insane plating like alaska and Irian. I did not include Azuma, nor did I include clones like B versions, ARP ships, HSF Graf Spee, Alabama ST, etc. as those inflate the count pointlessly). So, against ~1/4 of the BBs, ~1/15 of all CAs/CLs and 1/57 of all DDs, your 50 mm pen actually counts. Against the rest, the dpm of every other ship is just as real as Hipper's. Which is 89.5% of all ships you face. I take my improved dpm on 89.5% and being reduced to fires and superstructures/extremities or straight up shooting AP over having underwhelming firepower against everything. This is what crippling overspecialisation looks like.

4 hours ago, RAMJB said:

"it's a ship with one questionable trick but otherwise no clear strenghts"

Ok, let's sum it up again; hipper and PE's "other tricks" are:

50mms of penetration with HE (only cruiser, alongside it's bigger german brothers, that can clearcut hurt even bow in Moskvas with HE without IFHE, regardless where they hit, in the whole "normal" cruiser class in the whole game. Just to name one instance of why that's of capital importance).

17.7km range (longest in the tier, and apart of Martel, longest by a quite remarkable stretch too)

Turtleback armor on a mostly underwater citadel which means that at anything but long range it's extremely hard to citadel (not impossible, but extremely hard).

6 torpedoes per side (second best of any T8 cruiser, behind the japanese ones) which on top of that have lightning quick reload and synergize extremely well with the great close-in armor layout for rushes.

6km hydro at T8 (being as it is by far the best and most useful hydro in the whole game, only present in the german t8-t10 cruisers and the t9-t10 BBs).

highest healthpool in the tier (only lagging behind PE and Atago because of their heal)

 

highest AP damage per shell of any non-german "normal" cruiser. Including T10 ones except Henri. (obviously the "battlecruisers" are a whole different matter and should be another class, but that's besides the point).


.... it sure seems like a bunchload of "clear strenghts" to me, to add to the "questionable trick" of being impervious to anything short of 406mm AP when properly angled...


But that's just to me. You might be inclined to think otherwise. In that case, I insist, leave the line alone, because Roon and Hindenburg will MASSIVELY dissapoint you because their playstile, strenghts and weaknesses are exactly the same.
 

Situational firepower, as pointed up above.

 

Range also isn't major improvement over Chapayev and on that note, Kutuzov has the longes range actually.

 

Turtleback of broken promises that only works when you are so close that even if you win, you trade most hp for that kill. If you win.

 

Torpedoes that only are good at suicide rushing and cannot be used outside of that, unlike IJN torps or RN torps that can be stealth launched and are decent for harassment. Also reload that is too long to torp the same target again, but after one suicide rush it's a bit hard to do another with the remaining hp (Prinz Eugen's repair party fixes that, which is why I consider it a straight up better Hipper, but still not good).

 

6 km hydro that is a weak consolation for neither having hydro nor good concealment. Guess it beats Charles Martel at least.

 

PE actually has more hp outright and repair. Atago has more with repair, Edinburgh also has more with superheal, but you need to avoid dying. Helps not against cruisers, because they just dpm you into the ground (Edinburgh meanwhile can avoid getting citadelled and will just repair most damage).

 

Second best AP broadside, on the caveat that it has barely more than a 10 gun IJN broadside, but without the accuracy, it has not the USN/RN improved pen angles and it cannot follow up with a second salvo as fast as a CL to abuse a broadside opportunity before the enemy angles. It also is not as good at surprise salvos.

 

If you find an enemy team that allows you to AP farm them the entire game, cool. Otherwise, having a second ammo type that isn't garbage apart from its pen that is an absolute niche application, is to me the better deal.

4 hours ago, RAMJB said:

But that's just to me. You might be inclined to think otherwise. In that case, I insist, leave the line alone, because Roon and Hindenburg will MASSIVELY dissapoint you because their playstile, strenghts and weaknesses are exactly the same.

As someone who owns Hindenburg and has played it in randoms, ranked and CB, I can tell you, Hindenburg is way more competitive at its tier than Hipper is at T8.

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"It stopped that PE"

It's all situational. I'm assuming if someone is rushing you, you're at the very least either stopped, or he's coming from your bow. in that scenario you simply won't have the rate of fire to fend off a PE coming for you at full speed before he's on top of you.

If you're broadside on moving at speed, or worse, moving away, obviously you can farm him. But then the problem is not the hipper (or PE) but an idiot at the wheel. 

 

 

"I love that turtleback argument"

So do I because it's a valid one. You're giving screenshots of firing to a completely broadside on hipper from different ranges, and getting cits (notably in ones or twos, when most cruisers would eat them in twos or threes, but that's besides the point).

If you're giving full broadside to a BB turtleback or not you're going to get roflstomped and deservedly so.

at 35-40º angle is not so clearcut however. It's as not so clearcut as to be highly unlikely.  And that's the angle you want to use when moving into a BB with guns that overmatch your 27mm bows. Bow cits can still happen but are FAR rarer than in a straight up autobounce angle approach, but side cits won't happen - period. And they WILL happen in any other T8 cruiser shot at that angle.


"50mm pen isn't that useful"

Oh but it is, my dear boy, because without IFHE 203mm guns only pen 33mm of armor, and out of the british and french BBs, everything else has thicker deck armors than that, that an Atago won't get through but you will in your hipper. bismarck- check. Fdg- check. GK- check. Yamato- check. mushashi-check...montana- check.

should I go on?. All those are ships which midships deck will bounce atago's 203mms but won't bounce hipper's, AT ALL. If you think that's a negligible difference, up to you, but no, it's not negligible, not at all, specially not when firing from 17km out (as you should in the initial stages of a game) where all you can reliably hit are battleships.



"Hydro is - again - not that special"

It is that special. whenever a german high tier hydro is present, it's a threat big enough to make high stealth DDs turn tails and keep their range. THAT alone is significant, and THAT is something you don't get with 5km hydro, period. Even GK's hydro works wonders in that sense (though of course is A LOT more situational in a brick that size), on Hipper, at T8? you must be kidding me.

 

Detecting torpedoes aiming at you one km further out than with the standard hydro is also another massive advantage. Not only because it gives you much more time to react to those that come for you, but because you'll be detecting A LOT more torpedoes around you which aren't going for you but for allies, giving them, in turn, the time to react. If torpedoes weren't aimed at you you have a far larger chance to detect them with german hydro than with standard one. I won't stop repeating it - it's a massive difference, and one that's key.



"cleveland can't hold a position well, neither can hipper"

Erm...no?. being behind hard cover with a ship with 6 torpedoes per side means that you can hold it FAR better than with a ship with no torpedoes at all. A cleveland that doesn't perfectly time his retreat from a cover position under threat of being overrun by an enemy BB is DEAD. Period. A Hipper in that position is not only dead, but is likely to blast the BB into the moon. Specially if said BB hasn't got 16inch or bigger guns.

 

you can flank wide?. Sure?. Always?. No, not always. But let's assume you can. Next step is assuming the relative risk either ship is at in that scenario.

1-one is impervious when angled to 380mm or less AP shells, and has turtleback

2-the other is not. and has not.

Judge yourself which of either is in a worse spot. It ain't the hipper.

Now I don't say a hipper in that position isn't under serious threat - but I -DO- say that a hipper in that position has the best chance to extricate itself from that position than any other T8 cruiser.


"chapayev is not an obstacle camper"

Neither is hipper, And hipper can not only actively avoid shells (chapayev at best can wiggle a bit even at top range because that stupidly big turning circle), but has 400 extra m range (and that matters, quite a bit in fact, specially during early game), and isn't made of tissue paper, but on top of that has guns that ,again, can pen 50mm of armor (and I already adressed that before, that matters against a FAR bigger target range than just moskvas), and has a much smaller citadel to boot.


"Atago is in this conversation because it does long range shooting better"

And indeed it does. Just not THAT much better. Better enough, for sure, but again, one ship is a specialist, the other a generalist.

and no, I don't buy that "atago is good for other stuff too", because it's not. Yes, it has a brutal alpha, and can delivery some incredibly powerful surprise volleys. But after firing he's spotted, for 20 seconds, and won't fire in the next sixteen seconds. And unless he's really far away (like, really, far away) that rudder shift won't help much, nor will that 41mm deck armor, because one will be countered by just predicting the inevitable turn, and the second won't matter because the shells won't be hitting the deck at all. And out of that 41mm "miracle deck" (which ain't miracle at all under 14km at best ) atago's armor isn't hipper's.

So again- Atago is still a long range specialist. hipper is not. Obviously Atago does long range stuff better, but hipper is no slouch in that role either, and isn't going to eat the kind of punishment an Atago will if caught under 13km of any minimally self-aware BB.


"other cruisers can support cap better with firepower or radar"

true for the initial cap rush. completely bonkers for later in the battle. 6km hydro is FAR more useful than radar in sweeping a cap that's defended by a DD with little support than Radar is (radar at best lasts 45 secons with the upgrade, guess how long hydro is on with upgrade), and those situations are plenty common at midgame (not to speak, lategame). most ships in that situation utterly die if they try to cap, let alone detect the DD. Hipper won't just cap, he can actively sweep the cap and force the DD to either retreat or die - there's no option left for him.

What I'm going at, anyway, is that ,Yes, hipper on the earlygame is relatively limited in impact compared with other cruisers, but that such limitation is more than compensated by the fact that the more the game advances, the more and more impactful it becomes (quite more than any other T8 cruiser). Hipper isn't a good teamwork ship in the sense that it doesn't do much for the team early on (other than hydro area torpedo location), but it's self-reliant in a way no other T8 cruiser is, as it has a tool for any situation it can find itself in the lategame. Something that other T8s lack. And hydro is one of the tools that make for that self-reliant pack, and one that is a huge part of it.


"hindenburg can tank a montana"

in as much as can an Atago. No, no it can not. At extreme range some shells will fall on your deck. Not all.Some will hit the sides. Some will hit the bow or rear. Those that don't fall straight on top of the mid deck will hurt and will hurt badly. You don't choose RNG, where the shell falls is up for the roll of the dice, not up for your skill to "tank" it. And the closer you get the less relevant it gets anyway.

At any rate, hindenburg is a T10 cruiser and somehow the idea that it's an overgrown hipper seems for you to be unnaceptable, when it's exactly the case. yes, it will bounce 406mm off the center deck. Yes, that helps. No, it doesn't mean you can "Tank" a montana. Holy crap no you cannot. Very no. Much no. Completely no.


"hindenburg can win fights vs other cruiser"

Jeeze so it can Hipper. What the... 



"203mm built in IFHE is only valid against"...

You're missing ships in that list. like Kronshtadt, just to name one. But besides that, one of the most often critizised facts about T8 ships is that how much they get uptiered (and even after the 0.7.11 patch, they still see far too much uptiering), and out of the uptiered matchmaking sample, the % of ships that don't care about your upgraded HE penetration is FAR lower than the 89% you're presenting here. That on one hand. On the other hand you're including DDs in the mix when honestly, DPM against dds is anything but really meaningful because simply stated any dd is lunch for any proper driven cruiser (ok, the japanese gunboat line is an exception but hipper is no more nor any less in trouble vs them than any other t8 cruiser. Less in fact given that at least has hydro to rush the smoke of those machineguns), even more for a cruiser with 6km hydro.

 

or, in other words, the real part of it is that it matters a lot more than what you're giving credit for.

 


"kutuzov has more range. chapayev is close"

It's also a ship you can't purchase since years now. And we all know why kutuzov has that range (meaning, stupid WG policy regarding premium ships). very poor comparison and given kutu's rarity, almost irrelevant.

chapayev needs that range and even then is not really safe even from that distance given how damn sluggish that thing is. Another poor comparison, and even then, is almost half a km of distance, and at least for me those 400 extra meters DO make a difference in quite many situations I find myself into (both in chapayev and when I had my hipper).


"torpedoes that can only be used in suicide rushing"

and in corner camping. And in smoke torpedoing (when your hydro is off), and in predictive shots when moving from island cover to island cover... amd a long, very long list of situations that is a far cry from a "suicide rush". Such as jumping a Bismarck or a Richelieu in a situation where any other torpedo cruiser would be put into geostationary orbit with an AP volley to the nose...but won't against a hipper. And those situations are *very* common.

that you bring up british torpedoes is funny because they aren't stealth (they can be fired from smoke, yes, but that's a far cry from being "stealth"), and you get only 3 per side. Hipper gets 6. And that's a HUGE difference (the point I most disliked about Roon, actually, was that loss of torpedo power)


"6km hydro that it's a poor consolation"

I swear, if the DM had the option between german hydro and radar, I'd be hard pressed to choose between both. Radar is far more useful early game . Hydro is FAR more useful lategame. I really don't know what you're doing with your hydro in your german cruisers (and BBs), but certainly for mine they're a godsend.


"AP has the caveat that"....

 

yes. AP is situational in hipper, so is in every other german cruiser. It's either useful against distracted enemies or if you actively work on achieving a good crossfire yourself. Doesn't detract from the fact that it is BRUTAL. Oh, and also, light cruiser AP won't pen anywhere close to what german 203mm guns do. Not that german 8 inch guns have particularily good pen when compared with other 8'' guns (specially american), but a 6'' cruiser is nowhere ANYWHERE close to achieve the kind of spectacular citadels Hipper can (and will) get out of broadside on enemies. Including battleships if close enough.


"if the enemy team lets you farm their broadsides all the time..."

erm...it's up to you to work the angles and the battle to find flanking positions where the enemy will have to give you the broadside no matter what. If an enemy Iowa is nose in towards an enemy ,say Izumo, and you're off his side, do you think he's going to angle against you?. Because if you do so, think again.

Again, AP is a no go early game. moving from midgame onwards when the battle evolves and gaps form, there's almost always a chance to win flanking shots that the enemy can't avoid taking. It's up to you to work those crossfires and position yourself to exploit them, because once you do so, the damage you rake is ungodly. 

yes, I know other cruisers aren't as reliant on crossfires to get AP to pen. But those other cruisers do almost a whooping 20% less damage per hit (if not more) than a Hipper will. Quid pro quo.


"Hindenburg is more competitive at t10 than hipper is at t8".

maybe, but is not a massive difference. Hindenburg is an excellent T10 cruiser. But Hipper is still a very good T8 cruiser. Maybe not as competitive in T8 as Hinden as T10, but certainly is no slouch. And is nowhere near needing a buff.

 

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1 hour ago, RAMJB said:

 

"It stopped that PE"

It's all situational. I'm assuming if someone is rushing you, you're at the very least either stopped, or he's coming from your bow. in that scenario you simply won't have the rate of fire to fend off a PE coming for you at full speed before he's on top of you.

If you're broadside on moving at speed, or worse, moving away, obviously you can farm him. But then the problem is not the hipper (or PE) but an idiot at the wheel. 

He came bow on, I turned, then gunned him down with HE and secondaries. Sorry, but I see him at way before 6 km and Scharnhorst still does 30 knots, so good luck catching up. And in an HE contest, I win, given I actually have BB-grade hp. The PE cannot punish my turn hard enough, nor can Hipper and I don't need to stay further away than 6 km. I'm perfectly fine keeping the engagement at ranges from 6 to 8 km, where torps are useless but secondaries aren't.

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"I love that turtleback argument"

So do I because it's a valid one. You're giving screenshots of firing to a completely broadside on hipper from different ranges, and getting cits (notably in ones or twos, when most cruisers would eat them in twos or threes, but that's besides the point).

If you're giving full broadside to a BB turtleback or not you're going to get roflstomped and deservedly so.

at 35-40º angle is not so clearcut however. It's as not so clearcut as to be highly unlikely.  And that's the angle you want to use when moving into a BB with guns that overmatch your 27mm bows. Bow cits can still happen but are FAR rarer than in a straight up autobounce angle approach, but side cits won't happen - period. And they WILL happen in any other T8 cruiser shot at that angle.

No other cruiser even needs to get suicidally close to matter. Period.

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"50mm pen isn't that useful"

Oh but it is, my dear boy, because without IFHE 203mm guns only pen 33mm of armor, and out of the british and french BBs, everything else has thicker deck armors than that, that an Atago won't get through but you will in your hipper. bismarck- check. Fdg- check. GK- check. Yamato- check. mushashi-check...montana- check.

should I go on?. All those are ships which midships deck will bounce atago's 203mms but won't bounce hipper's, AT ALL. If you think that's a negligible difference, up to you, but no, it's not negligible, not at all, specially not when firing from 17km out (as you should in the initial stages of a game) where all you can reliably hit are battleships.

It's shatter, not bounce. And I already pointed out that it applies to 1 out of 10 ships in Hipper's MM. Against everything else it is worse. Most of the deck on FdG, Yamato and Musashi is 57 mm btw and the part on Yamato and Musashi that is 50 mm is still bow section, so you deplete the same hp that a normal cruiser depletes by firing further forward.

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"Hydro is - again - not that special"

It is that special. whenever a german high tier hydro is present, it's a threat big enough to make high stealth DDs turn tails and keep their range. THAT alone is significant, and THAT is something you don't get with 5km hydro, period. Even GK's hydro works wonders in that sense (though of course is A LOT more situational in a brick that size), on Hipper, at T8? you must be kidding me.

 

Detecting torpedoes aiming at you one km further out than with the standard hydro is also another massive advantage. Not only because it gives you much more time to react to those that come for you, but because you'll be detecting A LOT more torpedoes around you which aren't going for you but for allies, giving them, in turn, the time to react. If torpedoes weren't aimed at you you have a far larger chance to detect them with german hydro than with standard one. I won't stop repeating it - it's a massive difference, and one that's key.

Ok, I'm seriously questioning this right now. Like, how often in any friggin cruiser will you see a DD closer than 6 km that isn't yolorushing you? Basically never, because most DDs have like 5.8 km concealment, Kagero has 5.4 km and getting as close as 5.5 km or so is just playing with fire. If I want to torp a cruiser with any appreciable torpedo range, I'd do it from 6-7 km out at the very least, as would any DD that doesn't need to fear getting radared. Try do that to a Chapayev. And the reason it's useful on GK is because it allows dodging torps, not because the DD has to stay away further than they'd stay anyway (just alone because if you are at 6 km and Hipper, Atago or Charles Martel launch a catapult fighter, you are screwed).

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"cleveland can't hold a position well, neither can hipper"

Erm...no?. being behind hard cover with a ship with 6 torpedoes per side means that you can hold it FAR better than with a ship with no torpedoes at all. A cleveland that doesn't perfectly time his retreat from a cover position under threat of being overrun by an enemy BB is DEAD. Period. A Hipper in that position is not only dead, but is likely to blast the BB into the moon. Specially if said BB hasn't got 16inch or bigger guns.

 

you can flank wide?. Sure?. Always?. No, not always. But let's assume you can. Next step is assuming the relative risk either ship is at in that scenario.

1-one is impervious when angled to 380mm or less AP shells, and has turtleback

2-the other is not. and has not.

Judge yourself which of either is in a worse spot. It ain't the hipper.

Now I don't say a hipper in that position isn't under serious threat - but I -DO- say that a hipper in that position has the best chance to extricate itself from that position than any other T8 cruiser.

If you want to hold it, neither can do it. Most BBs will just wreck you, 38 cm or not, if you stay in that position. If however you want to do a timely retreat, 9.1 km concealment beats 10.8 km. If you are an Atago, you even have deck plating to help and 35 knots.

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"chapayev is not an obstacle camper"

Neither is hipper, And hipper can not only actively avoid shells (chapayev at best can wiggle a bit even at top range because that stupidly big turning circle), but has 400 extra m range (and that matters, quite a bit in fact, specially during early game), and isn't made of tissue paper, but on top of that has guns that ,again, can pen 50mm of armor (and I already adressed that before, that matters against a FAR bigger target range than just moskvas), and has a much smaller citadel to boot.
 

Chapayev doesn't need to risk its life trying to damage farm in early game, but is better advised to actually help out the cap fight. Which might not necessarily give big damage numbers, but gives winrate. And no, guns that are better against 10.5% of all ships are not better than guns that are better against the remaining 89.5%.

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"Atago is in this conversation because it does long range shooting better"

And indeed it does. Just not THAT much better. Better enough, for sure, but again, one ship is a specialist, the other a generalist.

and no, I don't buy that "atago is good for other stuff too", because it's not. Yes, it has a brutal alpha, and can delivery some incredibly powerful surprise volleys. But after firing he's spotted, for 20 seconds, and won't fire in the next sixteen seconds. And unless he's really far away (like, really, far away) that rudder shift won't help much, nor will that 41mm deck armor, because one will be countered by just predicting the inevitable turn, and the second won't matter because the shells won't be hitting the deck at all. And out of that 41mm "miracle deck" (which ain't miracle at all under 14km at best ) atago's armor isn't hipper's.

So again- Atago is still a long range specialist. hipper is not. Obviously Atago does long range stuff better, but hipper is no slouch in that role either, and isn't going to eat the kind of punishment an Atago will if caught under 13km of any minimally self-aware BB.

Because Hipper sits at 17 km and is doing the most useless job of the team? Yes, it works, I played enough Atago games to know. Feel free to dismiss it, the reality looks different.

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"other cruisers can support cap better with firepower or radar"

true for the initial cap rush. completely bonkers for later in the battle. 6km hydro is FAR more useful than radar in sweeping a cap that's defended by a DD with little support than Radar is (radar at best lasts 45 secons with the upgrade, guess how long hydro is on with upgrade), and those situations are plenty common at midgame (not to speak, lategame). most ships in that situation utterly die if they try to cap, let alone detect the DD. Hipper won't just cap, he can actively sweep the cap and force the DD to either retreat or die - there's no option left for him.

What I'm going at, anyway, is that ,Yes, hipper on the earlygame is relatively limited in impact compared with other cruisers, but that such limitation is more than compensated by the fact that the more the game advances, the more and more impactful it becomes (quite more than any other T8 cruiser). Hipper isn't a good teamwork ship in the sense that it doesn't do much for the team early on (other than hydro area torpedo location), but it's self-reliant in a way no other T8 cruiser is, as it has a tool for any situation it can find itself in the lategame. Something that other T8s lack. And hydro is one of the tools that make for that self-reliant pack, and one that is a huge part of it.

Radar lasts 20-30 seconds at T8 and 3 out of 4 cruisers at T8 can radar close or beyond concealment. This translates into, when these ships go into that cap and there is a DD, they radar it and can kill it within radar time, not just chase it out. Similarly, you can do that early game. Next on, for bullying DDs out of the cap, 5 km hydro is just as good as 6 km, because the thing with hydro-bullying is, the extra km doesn't matter unless the DD gets caught in it, as the only other thing you get is torpedo warning. No cruiser is unmaneuverable to need more than 3.5 km early warning.

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"hindenburg can tank a montana"

in as much as can an Atago. No, no it can not. At extreme range some shells will fall on your deck. Not all.Some will hit the sides. Some will hit the bow or rear. Those that don't fall straight on top of the mid deck will hurt and will hurt badly. You don't choose RNG, where the shell falls is up for the roll of the dice, not up for your skill to "tank" it. And the closer you get the less relevant it gets anyway.

At any rate, hindenburg is a T10 cruiser and somehow the idea that it's an overgrown hipper seems for you to be unnaceptable, when it's exactly the case. yes, it will bounce 406mm off the center deck. Yes, that helps. No, it doesn't mean you can "Tank" a montana. Holy crap no you cannot. Very no. Much no. Completely no.
 

I don't know how you play your Hindenburg, but mine works. I guess I just got exceptionally lucky then, just like I get exceptionally lucky in Gneisenau to be able to tank shells on my mid-section, not that bit of bow armour, because I know how to angle and steer my ship.

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"hindenburg can win fights vs other cruiser"

Jeeze so it can Hipper. What the... 

Except every other cruiser dpms you into the ground, except PE, which outlasts you. Hipper cannot win fair fights against skilled opponents.

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"203mm built in IFHE is only valid against"...

You're missing ships in that list. like Kronshtadt, just to name one. But besides that, one of the most often critizised facts about T8 ships is that how much they get uptiered (and even after the 0.7.11 patch, they still see far too much uptiering), and out of the uptiered matchmaking sample, the % of ships that don't care about your upgraded HE penetration is FAR lower than the 89% you're presenting here. That on one hand. On the other hand you're including DDs in the mix when honestly, DPM against dds is anything but really meaningful because simply stated any dd is lunch for any proper driven cruiser (ok, the japanese gunboat line is an exception but hipper is no more nor any less in trouble vs them than any other t8 cruiser. Less in fact given that at least has hydro to rush the smoke of those machineguns), even more for a cruiser with 6km hydro.

 

or, in other words, the real part of it is that it matters a lot more than what you're giving credit for.

Kronshtadt 50 mm where?

shot-18_12.21_03_57.16-0286.thumb.jpg.f37bedb46aa2e205bad50679b75a56b2.jpg

What other ship?

 

And no, the IJN gunboat line can crap on Hipper, because Hipper has the dpm that is worse than a Kagero that is shooting back. Meanwhile something like a Chapayev, Cleveland or Edinburgh will kill you long before you kill them as they have actual dpm. An Atago also has 41 mm deck that says no.

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"kutuzov has more range. chapayev is close"

It's also a ship you can't purchase since years now. And we all know why kutuzov has that range (meaning, stupid WG policy regarding premium ships). very poor comparison and given kutu's rarity, almost irrelevant.

chapayev needs that range and even then is not really safe even from that distance given how damn sluggish that thing is. Another poor comparison, and even then, is almost half a km of distance, and at least for me those 400 extra meters DO make a difference in quite many situations I find myself into (both in chapayev and when I had my hipper).
 

I mean, basically, for you, Chapayev needs that range. What I'm getting too though, is that seemingly Hipper needs it too, as it seemingly makes a difference. May I point out that spamming Kagero levels of dpm from 17 km against Bismarcks is not exactly anything effective, when other cruisers meanwhile demolish DDs and cruisers?

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"torpedoes that can only be used in suicide rushing"

and in corner camping. And in smoke torpedoing (when your hydro is off), and in predictive shots when moving from island cover to island cover... amd a long, very long list of situations that is a far cry from a "suicide rush". Such as jumping a Bismarck or a Richelieu in a situation where any other torpedo cruiser would be put into geostationary orbit with an AP volley to the nose...but won't against a hipper. And those situations are *very* common.

that you bring up british torpedoes is funny because they aren't stealth (they can be fired from smoke, yes, but that's a far cry from being "stealth"), and you get only 3 per side. Hipper gets 6. And that's a HUGE difference (the point I most disliked about Roon, actually, was that loss of torpedo power)

In every instance other than suicide rush, other torps are better, because they actually have range and you don't need to be within spitting distance of the enemy. Except Chapayev, which gets 4 km. And I don't know, but 10 km torpedoes on 9 km concealment do sound like stealth torping to me. So, feel free to say Edinburgh can't stealth torp, when in fact she can.

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"6km hydro that it's a poor consolation"

I swear, if the DM had the option between german hydro and radar, I'd be hard pressed to choose between both. Radar is far more useful early game . Hydro is FAR more useful lategame. I really don't know what you're doing with your hydro in your german cruisers (and BBs), but certainly for mine they're a godsend.


DM has the choice between defAA and normal hydro. If I had the choice between getting radar and normal hydro or German hydro, I sure as hell know what I'd take. And that is basically the same consideration one has to make against all T8 radar cruisers (except Cleveland, which also gets defAA, which has to be pointed out, because not taking defAA means being easily killed by any CV that knows their stuff and not being a free kill to AP bombers is not minor.

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"AP has the caveat that"....

 

yes. AP is situational in hipper, so is in every other german cruiser. It's either useful against distracted enemies or if you actively work on achieving a good crossfire yourself. Doesn't detract from the fact that it is BRUTAL. Oh, and also, light cruiser AP won't pen anywhere close to what german 203mm guns do. Not that german 8 inch guns have particularily good pen when compared with other 8'' guns (specially american), but a 6'' cruiser is nowhere ANYWHERE close to achieve the kind of spectacular citadels Hipper can (and will) get out of broadside on enemies. Including battleships if close enough.

6 inch pen is of no importance outside knife fights, because, guess what, these cruisers don't need AP for serious dpm. When close enough, AP dpm is better though and unless you land those rare cits on BBs, the light cruisers are better though.

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"if the enemy team lets you farm their broadsides all the time..."

erm...it's up to you to work the angles and the battle to find flanking positions where the enemy will have to give you the broadside no matter what. If an enemy Iowa is nose in towards an enemy ,say Izumo, and you're off his side, do you think he's going to angle against you?. Because if you do so, think again.

Again, AP is a no go early game. moving from midgame onwards when the battle evolves and gaps form, there's almost always a chance to win flanking shots that the enemy can't avoid taking. It's up to you to work those crossfires and position yourself to exploit them, because once you do so, the damage you rake is ungodly. 

yes, I know other cruisers aren't as reliant on crossfires to get AP to pen. But those other cruisers do almost a whooping 20% less damage per hit (if not more) than a Hipper will. Quid pro quo.

Those other cruisers don't rely on AP to get dpm and could work on that Izumo without having to try to flank. Flanking is

  • Not always possible, thus unreliable
  • Exposes the ship to CV attacks if present
  • Exposes the ship to other predators that might see it as a free kill (and have better concealment)
  • Is time-consuming in the slowest of T8 cruisers
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"Hindenburg is more competitive at t10 than hipper is at t8".

maybe, but is not a massive difference. Hindenburg is an excellent T10 cruiser. But Hipper is still a very good T8 cruiser. Maybe not as competitive in T8 as Hinden as T10, but certainly is no slouch. And is nowhere near needing a buff.

All I get from your post is "Look, this is how you play Hipper". Which is mostly nothing new (and some info like 50 mm Kronshtadt plating or no stealth torp on Edinburgh is outright false). What however is basically absent is how this playstyle is in any way more useful than any other T8 cruiser. Basically, you farm BBs from 17 km, you late game bully DDs, you try get your ship into crossfire positions (hopefully without getting murdered) and then farm some poor sod in a BB with AP. Highlight of the game. And this somehow carries the same weight as ships that can go to a cap, radar it, get DDs killed within the first few minutes of the game, can farm all the soft targets and if late-game they need to bully DDs, they just go and counter-radar them upon detection to get a free kill within a few salvos, without the DD being able to do much.

 

And you might disagree on that matter, but there's pretty much nothing to back up your claims. The playstyle you suggest (and which the values encourage) is not exactly "effective" overall and if we look at the performance of the ship, nothing suggests that it is terribly competitive.

 

And just to humor myself, I actually looked for sections on Kronshtadt where Hipper matters. There are some:

Spoiler

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shot-18_12.21_04_30.32-0956.thumb.jpg.3845c18b53060bb513c1335af794101c.jpg

You might agree though that with all the rest being 25 mm, these pits and pieces are of no real importance.

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Hipper has potential. This was against NA potatoes, but still valid. Not a weak ship but a bit boring to play.

 

shot-18_12.06_04_13.47-0947.thumb.jpg.42f0d6bb9cbb17110382e144367f5490.jpgshot-18_12.06_04_14.10-0993.thumb.jpg.969a19f8d50651c5eb05eed8265488b0.jpgshot-18_12.06_04_14.37-0567.thumb.jpg.e12cb6c256d85dee6c811783f1a21a28.jpg

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34 minutes ago, Ze_Reckless said:

Hipper has potential. This was against NA potatoes, but still valid. Not a weak ship but a bit boring to play.

 

shot-18_12.06_04_13.47-0947.thumb.jpg.42f0d6bb9cbb17110382e144367f5490.jpgshot-18_12.06_04_14.10-0993.thumb.jpg.969a19f8d50651c5eb05eed8265488b0.jpgshot-18_12.06_04_14.37-0567.thumb.jpg.e12cb6c256d85dee6c811783f1a21a28.jpg

That's a Yorck.

  • Cool 1

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This is going round in circles because you simply discard the points you are brought as "whatever" just because ,for instance, once you met an absolute moron in a PE who insisted to push on your kiting battleship. Which obviously instantly means that the PE sucks.

the whole rest of the debate is going alongside the same lines.

So I'll reduce it to another approach.

Your performance while playing solo in hipper:
40.9% win rate, 49000 average damage, PR 1345, in a total of 59 battles. hIghest damage 106000. can't say if pre-buff or post-buff.

 

your performance while playing solo in hindenburg.
54% WR with 80.000 Average damage ,PR 1422 in a total of 48 battles. highest damage 198.000.

Your tier 8 or higher cruisers with recorded stats (meaning, that you have ever played):
Hipper, Prinz Eugen (played 5 times, barely counts), Atago, Martel, Roon, Cleveland, Chapayev, Edinbrough, Roon, Hindenburg.

 

in other words you have no experience at all with baltimore nor new orleans pre-split, and you haven't played mogami yet. only t9 and t10 cruisers you've ever owned are Roon and Hindenburg.


My performance while playing solo in hipper:
55% win rate, 47000 average damage, PR 1677, in a total of 94 battles, highest damage 208000 damage. all played pre-buff

 

My solo performance in hindenburg:
50% win rate, 99000 average damage, pr 1583, in a total of 38 battles. highest damage 213000 . and it's a ship I'm cursed with horrible teams (out of my first 15 battles with it, I won only one...and no it wasn't because of me)

 

my personal cruiser lineup includes des moines, zao, and hindenburg, obviously meaning I played all the previous ships in the lines. Neptune on the british line. Cleveland on the american CL line. Chapayev on the soviet line (another ship I'm cursed with horrible teams each time I play it).

 

the only cruiser line I can't be bothered with grinding is the french one. I reached Algerie, couldn't be bothered with keeping it up. Completely unidimensional long range hespam gameplay, and I had far more than enough of that while going up the japanese line even while the japanese cruisers are all much stealthier. Meanwhile, exception made of Yorck, which I obviously grinded through before the AP buff, I found the german line as an exceptionally fun blend of styles, not excelling at any in particular, but being adaptable to almost any situation. And that sensation got accentuated tenfold the second I got myself into the hipper, and was reinforced both by Roon and Hindenburg.

 

 

This is no stat shaming, you're a pretty decent player. I'm not trying to portray that you have no clue or no idea, or that you somehow are a bad player who just doesn't get it. Not the case.
Partly because I consider myself pretty good but light years away from very good, and my stats are not those of someone with particular bragging rights, so this is not about that either. My stats are pretty much OK, but nothing special.


What this is, however, is a particular view of how hard is to explain that, if you're so right, you still fail to perform on the same level as I do, who apparently am so wrong about everything I wrote about. If you were right you'd outperform me by a solid margin on both ships - yet it's me the one who outperforms you in all of them (exception made of WR, a variable that with under 200-ish battles is just too unreliable because of team variances on the short term)

 

If you got things right you should consistently outperform me in both ships (and also in Roon, another ship I have noticeably better personal statistics than you, and plays exactly the same as hindenburg and hipper), and in any T8 or avobe cruisers in general. Turns out you don't have other T9 or T10 cruiser than Roon and Hinden, and turns out that in every other T8 cruiser, I still have better results. well, other than in Atago (I got the Atago B in a crate, and have played it only 6 times. During a weekend. You guess the rest).

My particular view on this is that your views are based on too limited experience with high tier cruisers, in which in only one line you have gone past tier 8, and which probably is giving you a limited perspective on the actual strenghts of the Hipper as compared with it's (obvious) weaknesses. I repeat that I am by no means the best player ever, I'm not even close to being a very good player, yet I consistently outperform you in every cruiser we both have (with the named Atago exception).

How do you explain it, if you're so right and I'm so wrong?.

(PD: yes, the kronshtadt doesn't have 50mm armor. Completely botched the mental image I had of that warship from ship armor schemes I saw a long time ago in a post that had images of both stalingrad, moskva and kronstad's armor schemes. I don't own the ship myself so I lack first hand experience on it's armor layout. Big deal).

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57 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

That's a Yorck.

Yes, of course. Silly me, I didn't make screens from that game. I have a replay though:

 

shot-18_12.21_07_00.34-0173.thumb.jpg.797199d98a77d35d5967d685715055a1.jpg

 

Not only can you dish out, the armor isn't half bad against certain ships, gun range does the rest. This was tier 9 MM. At one point all caps were red and 300:600 points, it was a fun comeback.

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oh yeah if we're going to use screenshots...one of my last battles in Hipper before unlocking Roon. I struggled for the first part of the grind finding the sweetspot on how to use the ship. Once I understood it, it was a rollercoaster. This particular battle I sank two battleships who decided to attack me while I was rear in towards them (not bow in) in the gap between the islands in the middle of the map. Both came for me. Both were firing HE. It seems they decided that as I was down to 33% health I was an easy kill and that they could gang me as they pleased.

Turns out, I wasn't, as my torpedoes were nice enough to remind them that hipper laughs in the face of fat bbs without overmatching guns, while their HE did pretty much nothing on me (damage saturation is a thing, you know, and as I said I was down to 33% health). 

 

Massacred the Lyon with a starboard launch, and massacred the Bismarck comin in shortly behind...with another starboard launch (when I say those torps have a lightining quick reload I'm not kidding). I only died when the Bismarck passed besides me and unleashed on my side with AP. But he was dead by then, he had repaired my HE fires , he ate four torpedoes, and the floodings did the rest.


In that one I also did a full number on a Chapayev and a Mogami, both in mostly 1v1 engagements, something that according to this thread the Hipper isn't supposed to do even with one of them ,much less with both (because it has such a poor DPM, apparently, that is a game changing deciding factor in who wins an engagement...geometry, distance, maneouvers ,accuracy or ammo choice seems not to matter now)

 

I also blew up a destroyer and gutted another two (all of them when smoked, all of them through hydro, but seems 6km hydro is useless so what do I know).

 

 

To top it off I raked 56k damage through that next to useless AP (now I guess how I massacred those two T8 cruisers finds an explanation)

 

And the lion's share was that 78k plus 44k flooding with my "torpedoes useful only in suicide rushes" ( two battleships did a grand total of 18k damage on me during the process of me torping them into oblivion. hardly a suicide rush...Or, rather, in fact actually a suicide rush. Theirs. as they were the ones who came straight for me while i was going full aft with my poop pointed at them XDDDD. had I been full health I'd have survived in a pretty OK state)

I could go on but I'd say one picture is worth 1000 words. Three of them, I'm not sure ;). And, remember, this was BEFORE the reload buff. Which the ship needed without question.

 

hipper 1.jpg

hipper 2.png

hipper 3.jpg

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