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affie

Suggestion: General armor buff for Tiers 3-7 streamlining the battleship gameplay

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I have grinded far fewer ships than many other in this lovely game, but I have never felt as squishy in a battleship as I am currently doing in the Nagato. It seems to get overmatched by everything that looks at it and takes a lot of damage even when angled or bow on.

 

This together with the release of West Virginia 1941 and reading LittleWhiteMouse's Musashi review made me think about how different the gameplay is between the tiers in the game. 

 

High tiers i.e 8-10 you bowtank or angle against all guns except those IJN 460 mm mounted on Musashi and Yamato. In the lower tiers you are overmatched when being bottom tier and sometimes when being top tier. 

 

Using the formulas for penetration and the armor threshold page in the wiki I have a suggestion on increasing he base/bow/stern/deck armor for the BBs tier by tier to be able to play similar as the high tier and make armor more useful against AP and that way force BBs to alternate between AP and HE more. 

 

Suggestion as follows:

Tier 3 - 22 mm (bounces 305 mm shells) 

Tier 4 - 22 mm (bounces 305 mm shells) 

Tier 5 - 25 mm (bounces 356 mm shells) 

Tier 6 - 27mm (bounces 381 mm shells) 

Tier 7 - 27 mm (bounces 381 mm shells) 

Tier 8 - 32 mm (bounces 457 mm shells) 

Tier 9 - 32 mm (bounces 457 mm shells) 

Tier 10 - 32 mm (bounces 457 mm shells) 

 

Using this layout the IJN would be the overpenetrating nation in the game having larger guns than any other ship on their tiers (specially with premium ships) but all tiers would be able to sufficient tank equal tier and one/two above for most of the time with a few exeptions. 

 

What do you my fellow players think about this idea for streamlining the gameplay of battleships between the tiers? 

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I think you mean 457 and not 357.

 

Since you figured out the overmatch formula you can also see what BBs and cruisers you can overmatch. This way you can turn your feeling into facts.

 

Tag or quote me if you need help or more information about it.

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4 hours ago, affie said:

What do you my fellow players think about this idea for streamlining the gameplay of battleships between the tiers? 

That assumes that the ability to just bowtank shells is to be promoted and isn't just a cause of BBs sitting stationary with only their front guns in use.

4 hours ago, affie said:

This together with the release of West Virginia 1941 and reading LittleWhiteMouse's Musashi review made me think about how different the gameplay is between the tiers in the game. 

WV did nothing to change overmatch at T6. Mutsu already existed. Even disregarding Mutsu, the only thing WV overmatches that Bayern/QE/Warspite don't overmatch are Hipper/Prinz Eugen and Baltimore. Three T8 cruisers. For something like a Kongo, it doesn't matter whether it's a WV or a Warspite, both are dangerous. Heck, a Fuso can overmatch a Kongo and rip it apart with the best dpm at T6.

Musashi similarly does not redefine overmatch in its MM spread. The only thing at T7 that really has 32 mm armour is Nelson. One single ship. against everything else, it overmatches just as much as every other T9. Even Alsace can overmatch Nagato.

5 hours ago, affie said:

Suggestion as follows:

Tier 3 - 22 mm (bounces 305 mm shells) 

Tier 4 - 22 mm (bounces 305 mm shells) 

Tier 5 - 25 mm (bounces 356 mm shells) 

Tier 6 - 27mm (bounces 381 mm shells) 

Tier 7 - 27 mm (bounces 381 mm shells) 

Tier 8 - 32 mm (bounces 357 mm shells) 

Tier 9 - 32 mm (bounces 357 mm shells) 

Tier 10 - 32 mm (bounces 357 mm shells) 

Let's look at it this way:

Tier 3 - 22 mm (shatters up to 134 mm HE/104 mm IFHE) 

Tier 4 - 22 mm (shatters up to 134 mm HE/104 mm IFHE) 

Tier 5 - 25 mm (shatters up to 153 mm HE/118 mm IFHE) 

Tier 6 - 27mm (shatters up to 165 mm HE/126 mm IFHE) 

Tier 7 - 27 mm (shatters up to 165 mm HE/126 mm IFHE) 

Tier 8 - 32 mm (shatters up to 189 mm HE/149 mm IFHE) 

Tier 9 - 32 mm (shatters up to 189 mm HE/149 mm IFHE) 

Tier 10 - 32 mm (shatters up to 189 mm HE/149 mm IFHE)

 

At T3 and 4, any cruiser with guns smaller than 152 becomes basically reliant on IFHE to deal damage. At T5, Furutaka, Kirov and Königsberg will be the only remaining cruisers able to deal damage without IFHE or fire RNG. There's a reason these ships have the armour they have and not more and they shouldn't get more armour. Unless we expect every Omaha to run an IFHE build already to not be utter garbage.

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3 hours ago, LemonadeWarrior said:

I think you mean 457 and not 357.

 

 Since you figured out the overmatch formula you can also see what BBs and cruisers you can overmatch. This way you can turn your feeling into facts.

 

Tag or quote me if you need help or more information about it.

Yes, I meant 457 since that it the largest gun in the game except for Yamamoto/Musashi. I wouldn't mind some more information, maybe you have some information I have overlooked.

 

2 hours ago, Riselotte said:

That assumes that the ability to just bowtank shells is to be promoted and isn't just a cause of BBs sitting stationary with only their front guns in use.

I also think of it as a way to promote the use of angle the ships against the opponents without getting ripped apart as well as promote some closer combat, if I can bowtank I can push closer and when close enough I can open up and fire all of my guns, but it could flip the other way as you say as well, promote the camping. Just talking from experience of how much crap I have gotten from fellow players while in the Nagato for not tanking when bottom tier and the angle I try doesn't matter, that forces me to be support battleship and hang back sniping close to max range targets and though receiving a crap for that.

 

2 hours ago, Riselotte said:

WV did nothing to change overmatch at T6. Mutsu already existed. Even disregarding Mutsu, the only thing WV overmatches that Bayern/QE/Warspite don't overmatch are Hipper/Prinz Eugen and Baltimore. Three T8 cruisers. For something like a Kongo, it doesn't matter whether it's a WV or a Warspite, both are dangerous. Heck, a Fuso can overmatch a Kongo and rip it apart with the best dpm at T6.

Musashi similarly does not redefine overmatch in its MM spread. The only thing at T7 that really has 32 mm armour is Nelson. One single ship. against everything else, it overmatches just as much as every other T9. Even Alsace can overmatch Nagato.

I know that the WV didn't change anything with overmatch other than being yet another ship with overmatching capabilities to its tier-spred, specially to its equal tier ships. But as you say the jump from Kongo to Fuso are pushing you over that armor threshold and you keep the same guns, with huge DPM incease. This I feel is the problem, the huge steps between the tiers and making parts of your armor obsolete just being one tier lower, your Kongos armor become just as valuable as a Furutakas against a Fuso, you lose the feeling of playing an armored battleship during some of those tier-jumps. As well as some of the T8 cruisers having better armor than the battleships at T7, it just seemss bit wierd and it is all about balancing, just look at the Amagi-class premium ship Ashitaka getting the 25 mm armor scheme when here sister has 32 mm just because of that jump between T7 to T8.

 

2 hours ago, Riselotte said:

Let's look at it this way:

Tier 3 - 22 mm (shatters up to 134 mm HE/104 mm IFHE) 

Tier 4 - 22 mm (shatters up to 134 mm HE/104 mm IFHE) 

Tier 5 - 25 mm (shatters up to 153 mm HE/118 mm IFHE) 

Tier 6 - 27mm (shatters up to 165 mm HE/126 mm IFHE) 

Tier 7 - 27 mm (shatters up to 165 mm HE/126 mm IFHE) 

Tier 8 - 32 mm (shatters up to 189 mm HE/149 mm IFHE) 

Tier 9 - 32 mm (shatters up to 189 mm HE/149 mm IFHE) 

Tier 10 - 32 mm (shatters up to 189 mm HE/149 mm IFHE)

 

At T3 and 4, any cruiser with guns smaller than 152 becomes basically reliant on IFHE to deal damage. At T5, Furutaka, Kirov and Königsberg will be the only remaining cruisers able to deal damage without IFHE or fire RNG. There's a reason these ships have the armour they have and not more and they shouldn't get more armour. Unless we expect every Omaha to run an IFHE build already to not be utter garbage.

I thank you for these calculations, I focused mainly on battleship vs battleship with AP shells overmatching and I get your point, there could however be an easy way around this and WG has already tried that mechanic for German cruiser, British battleships as well as IJN gun-focused destroyers, i.e. using the penetration value of 1/4 instead of 1/6.

 

This 1/4 based value would give us:

Tier 3 - 22 mm (shatters up to 88 mm HE) 

Tier 4 - 22 mm (shatters up to 88 mm HE) 

Tier 5 - 25 mm (shatters up to 100 mm HE) 

Tier 6 - 27 mm (shatters up to 108 mm HE) 

Tier 7 - 27 mm (shatters up to 108 mm HE) 

Tier 8 - 32 mm (shatters up to 128 mm HE) 

Tier 9 - 32 mm (shatters up to 128 mm HE) 

Tier 10 - 32 mm (shatters up to 128 mm HE)

 

Since I am not a fan of all "mandatory" captain skills we have in the game that almost everyone takes such as "Concealment expert" (everyone), "IFHE" (for light cruisers), "Last stand" (for destroyers), "Adrenaline rush" (everyone) and would like some of them to be removed or tweaked as the old "Situational-awareness" that everyone got for free later while it was replaced by "Priority target". Without any IFHE skill to tweak the values of penetration for HE shells it would be more equal for the new player as well as the experienced doing damage and you mention the Königsberg that actually have this 1/4 penetration as standard in its current form. Of course there will have to be tweaks and some ships would maybe like today have special formulas for example having 1/3 penetration for those IJN gun-boats or RN Jutland/Daring to still have capability to penetrate 32 mm armor. It would also mean that all battleships would take even more HE damage since the values are significantly reduced and ships that usually don't take IFHE would gain more of this buff than others, like the IJN torpedo-boats.

 

 

Being sort of an all-round player by games played but maybe more of a destroyer/cruiser player rather than battleship player I haven't really put to much thought about this until now when I have grinded battleships more. But my main opinion with this was to try to even out the large step between T7 and T8, and it is not only for battleships it is there, destroyers have it even worse due to not having access to the "Concealment System Mod. 1" which makes it very hard to play the objective properly in a T7 when you have such a huge detection difference compared to a T8 equiped with the "Concealment System Mod. 1". But more about that in another thread, this is about battleships and how to streamline the gameplay all the way from bottom to top tier games and make the transition smother than it is today.

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I think too much streamlining is bad for the variety of the game. Your example of basically compulsory captain skills is a great example why streamlining is bad. Also if AP becomes even more situational for BBs they might just shoot even more HE and who wants that? In my opinion streamlining the hydro wasn´t a good idea for the variety of the game but a good idea to get more people playing who really don´t wanna learn the game. I don´t need that. What next.. streamlining all radars and smoke durations..? Soon we can all go play tetris.

 

Don´t get me wrong I like suggestions and can give you a thumbs up for that. This suggestion however is not to my preferred way of making wows a good game.

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7 hours ago, affie said:

This I feel is the problem, the huge steps between the tiers and making parts of your armor obsolete just being one tier lower, your Kongos armor become just as valuable as a Furutakas against a Fuso, you lose the feeling of playing an armored battleship during some of those tier-jumps.

A Kongo cannot tank even a Wyoming. Getting overmatched at the bow is normal regardless what tier the ship faces. The thing about Kongo though, is that it has the midship section armoured enough to not be overmatched as easily and so you bait shots on that and bounce. That's what you can try in most of these low and mid-tier ships and is the skill that gets lost in high tier. It's also what keeps you mobile, because a stationary BB can have its bow sniped, a wiggling BB is far less likely to get hit directly at the bow. That is for example apparant in Nelson, where only dumb Nelsons start bowcamping in front of overmatching BBs, just to then get a citadel through the bow. Your main issue seems to be with Nagato, which indeed has a large area of 25 mm armour. But that's a Nagato thing that it lacks tankiness vs overmatching ships (and instead has a large hp pool). If you wanted a reliable tank at T7, get a Gneisenau. In exchange, Nagato has some of the best T7 BB guns.

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6 hours ago, Riselotte said:

A Kongo cannot tank even a Wyoming. Getting overmatched at the bow is normal regardless what tier the ship faces. The thing about Kongo though, is that it has the midship section armoured enough to not be overmatched as easily and so you bait shots on that and bounce. That's what you can try in most of these low and mid-tier ships and is the skill that gets lost in high tier. It's also what keeps you mobile, because a stationary BB can have its bow sniped, a wiggling BB is far less likely to get hit directly at the bow. That is for example apparant in Nelson, where only dumb Nelsons start bowcamping in front of overmatching BBs, just to then get a citadel through the bow. Your main issue seems to be with Nagato, which indeed has a large area of 25 mm armour. But that's a Nagato thing that it lacks tankiness vs overmatching ships (and instead has a large hp pool). If you wanted a reliable tank at T7, get a Gneisenau. In exchange, Nagato has some of the best T7 BB guns.

I totally agree with you that it seems to be a Nagato thing since I did not think about this when grinding the Gneisenau or when playing my Scharnhorst. 

 

It could partly be that I have gotten used to the high tier meta and having some problems adjusting to lower tier gameplay again in combination with those fairly large 25 mm areas on Nagato.

 

I do however stick to my opinion that the game would improve with a more fluent transition between the T7 and T8 by changes in a couple of areas.

 

So lets hope I feel more at home with the Amagi with same guns on better protected platform. 

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One of the biggest reasons why high tiers is so campy and why low/mid tiers are much more dynamic is precisely because low/mid tier BBs can't bow tank, forcing you to keep moving, attempt to dodge and angle your belt.

 

Thus WG should actually nerf the bow armor of high tier BBs instead. Precisely what they intended to do ages ago, but ofc they were shut down by all the BBabies whining about it.

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On 12/13/2018 at 2:52 AM, El2aZeR said:

One of the biggest reasons why high tiers is so campy and why low/mid tiers are much more dynamic is precisely because low/mid tier BBs can't bow tank, forcing you to keep moving, attempt to dodge and angle your belt.

 

Thus WG should actually nerf the bow armor of high tier BBs instead. Precisely what they intended to do ages ago, but ofc they were shut down by all the BBabies whining about it.

That would actually be another type of "streamlining" which I can support, if that is the major thing causing all stalemates at top tiers. 

 

Actually had a fun game today where I first played my Scharnhorst and angled to use my belt armor and later did same thing in my Missouri against a Musashi and it worked like wonders.

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Changing the bow and stern plating (mid sections can stay thicker) to the following values would give a smoother progression and the gun upgrades of some high tier BBs would have actual advantages. Friedrich, Lion and Conquerer would be able to overmatch -1 BBs (Kurfürst -2), while Yamato retains its unique feature to overmatch T10.

 

T Plating Overmatch
6 25 357.5
7 27 386.1
8 29 414.7
9 31 443.3
10 32 457.6
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13 hours ago, herrjott said:

Changing the bow and stern plating (mid sections can stay thicker) to the following values would give a smoother progression and the gun upgrades of some high tier BBs would have actual advantages. Friedrich, Lion and Conquerer would be able to overmatch -1 BBs (Kurfürst -2), while Yamato retains its unique feature to overmatch T10.

 

T Plating Overmatch
6 25 357.5
7 27 386.1
8 29 414.7
9 31 443.3
10 32 457.6

The best thing with this would be that the Conquerors 457 mm guns actually would be a more competitive gun being able to overmatched T9 bows and maybe get rid of some of the HE spam we see today. 

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59 minutes ago, affie said:

The best thing with this would be that the Conquerors 457 mm guns actually would be a more competitive gun being able to overmatched T9 bows and maybe get rid of some of the HE spam we see today. 

Conkek already can overmatch Cruisers with those guns. If that isn't worth the dpm, then some extra bows won't be either. Meanwhile T7s will become largely immune to T6 tech tree ships and for ships like Nelson this is quite the buff, given how often it is top tier. Cutting the overmatching ships from 20 to 9 in T6-T8 is pretty significant, especially as in terms of tech line ships it's a cut from 13 to 4.

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